Best decoder for a Tortoise?

[two tone green]

Plug your NCE pro cab into the sniffer port on the ECoS and control your locos whilst having the track layout on the ECoS screen for points. Simple 

[gordon s]

I’m not sure if this is going back to my original question, but if it is, I won’t have the NCE system as I will sell it to help towards an ECoS. The other problem I have, is that I’m still a relative beginner in DCC so have no idea what a ‘sniffer’ is or what it does.....

 

This is always one of the dangers once buzz words and acronyms creep in. Always willing to learn, but it can be daunting once the language changes to IT speak before you’ve taken the first half a dozen steps.

 

 

[newbryford]

A sniffer input is  a means of detecting DCC signals from another system and then forwarding them on.

The main system then uses these DCC signals and combines it with it's own and is outputted down the main DCC track output.

 

As TTG describes, you can use one system for loco control and another system for point control.

 

Although - rather than use TTG's suggestion of train control with NCE and point control from ECoS, flip it around and use the ECoS for train control and plug in the Cobalt Alpha using the Sniffer driver  - SNX - this was designed specifically for the likes of ECoS (and Roco Z21) to enable it to be easily piggybacked onto the main system although can be used as a standalone accessory only system (as you've already noted on another thread!)

 

Cheers,

Mick

[Phil Bullock]

Another, probably cheaper alternative is to buy a wireless router, anything from £25 upwards. Plug this in to ECoS to create your own local wireless network and drive the trains using your mobile phone via this network - and use the ECoS screen for signalman duties.

[gordon s]

Thanks for all your suggestions and having watched various videos, I’m starting to understand the options available.
 

If I understand correctly, the Cobalt mimic panel could provide a visual indication of routes etc. The cost of £50 covers 12 Tortoise motors, so I will need 5 sets to cover 60 motors. I haven’t yet checked the footprint of each of the boards, but a single panel will clearly be quite large to accommodate all the control boards. This may not be an issue as the layout is quite complex and my eyesight and ‘sausage fingers’ will mean a large panel may not be a problem. The unknown is how large is large at this point....

 

I will then need at least 8 x8 switch decoders to actually switch the turnouts themselves. They are going to be circa £45 each, so an additional £360. Total £610.

 

What other components would be required?
 

Do I need to run an additional accessory bus or do these run via the track bus? Neither is a problem, I just need to know what’s needed to come up with a reliable solution

 

I could keep my existing NCE Pro system. Routes could be accommodated via the NCE kit and I assume would be indicated on the mimic panel.

 

I could have a separate panel for the shed area for a second operator if required. Would it be a problem with duplication of turnout control? When operating on my own, the large panel would cover the whole layout including the shed, but when two operators are working, the shed operator could have his own control panel. This would mean shed turnouts would appear on both panels and either panel could switch turnouts. Is that a problem?

 

The ECoS solution is still very much on the cards and here I think I need Switch Pilots to control the motors. I’m not clear if they control 4 or 8 motors each, but they seem to be around £30 each. Add to that 5 packs of DCC concepts converters and that adds £150. Assuming I need 8 Switch Pilots then that’s a total of £390.

 

The ECoS controller is circa £600, so a total of £1000 less the sale of my NCE system.

 

I’m going to look at an ECoS controller this week, so that will help considerably. Funnily enough just typing on an iPad this morning has made me realise that the overall size is important and the display on an ECoS may be an issue.

 

I be grateful if someone could confirm that I haven’t misunderstood what’s required and any other suggestions you can offer.
 

 

[WIMorrison]

Your other choices could be to create a computer monitor screen mimic panel and drive that either using JMRI (free), Rocrail (free) or iTrain Lite (€119) . You plan on an ECoS and that interfaces with all 3, though I have to say my preference would be for iTrain light - you could enhance this later for other aspects later if you chose to.

 

Secondly, have you already purchased the Tortoise motors? If not  I suggest you look at the MTB MP1 which you can see working here as surface mount, they mount underneath very easily and have proved to be totally reliable  You can switch them very easily using something like a DR4018 which will switch 8 motors

[RFS]

43 minutes ago, gordon s said:

Do I need to run an additional accessory bus or do these run via the track bus? Neither is a problem, I just need to know what’s needed to come up with a reliable solution

 

 

If you run these via the main track bus, then when you get a track short you won't be able to change turnouts. It's a turnout set the wrong way that is often the cause of the short in the first place.

 

Simple solution is to install a second bus for the turnouts. Then connect the track bus to the command station via a circuit breaker, but connect the accessory bus directly (ie bypassing the CB). In this way the CB will trap the track short but leave the accessory bus and command station still running. This also has the benefit of hiding shorts from accessory decoders that sometimes leads to them malfunctioning.

 

You also need to consider the power requirement of the Tortoises. Each Tortoise will draw 15-16ma while stalled, so 60 will draw nearly 1 amp. If that's taking too much power from the bus, then you will need to consider your options. For example, the NCE Switch8 (MK2 version) allows you to provide external power. 

Edited January 29, 2020 by RFS

[gordon s]

Thanks again. Yes. I have all the Tortoise motors, installed and wired.

 

The bus wires at present are 1.5mm conduit cable and my NCE system is fed from a 5A Lenz transformer into the Pro Cab box. I'm happy to run a similar bus for turnout control and have some Digital Specialities Circuit Breakers to allow me to split the whole layout into 4 sections.

 

With a large layout finding a short circuit can be daunting, so I try to split it into as small sections if possible. I've experimented with having each board within a main section, individually switched so I can isolate a possible short to a 4' - 8' area. I certainly wouldn't want the whole lot to shut down, so a second bus will be installed.

 

Probably a stupid question, but is that one wire or two?.....

[Ron Ron Ron]

Gordon, make sure you don’t confuse the Alpha with the Alpha Mimic.

The Alpha Mimic is just a display system, with no switches or point control facility.

The Alpha allows both control of the points and the facility to create a panel.

[gordon s]

Ah! In that case I didn't understand correctly.

 

I thought the Mimic gubbins switched the turnouts. That's a lot of electronics just to light a LED.....

 

I guess I'll need to add 8 x AD8 FX's at £50 a throw, so an additional £400 taking it up to a similar price to the ECoS.

 

Thinking about the shed requirement, I could do that as a separate panel that could plug in at ET station when I'm on my own. Could I then unplug it and plug into another position adjacent to the shed area when I have two operators?

[RFS]

Bear in mind when calculating accessory decoder requirements that two Tortoises forming a crossover should only need one port. For example, on my complex station throat I have a number of crossovers and one of my NCE Switch-8s has 15 Tortoises connected to it. I have 64 Tortoises altogether but only 7 Switch-8s. 

[gordon s]

52 minutes ago, Ron Ron Ron said:

Gordon, make sure you don’t confuse the Alpha with the Alpha Mimic.

The Alpha Mimic is just a display system, with no switches or point control facility.

The Alpha allows both control of the points and the facility to create a panel.

 

Just wanted to check. Are you saying that I won't need the Alpha Mimic boards and the Alpha will perform both functions? If that is the case, I guess I have to delete the Mimic boards, but add all the necessary switches/LED's for the panel itself. I'm guessing those would be the accessory packs of LED's at £25 for 12. 60 motors will require 120 switch/led's so 10 packs would be £250.

 

That seems to be the same price for the Alpha Mimic boards?  I must be doing something wrong....

 

Thanks Robert. That does help as there are numerous paired turnouts in both ends of ET station approach.

 

Another question. At each end of the station I have a bay platform which is essentially a Y to allow trains to come in on one line, stop, change direction and then leave on the other line. In simple terms both legs of the Y are a crossover, but of course one of the turnouts in the station is part of both. Can that still be done with two switches, one in and one out, or will that be a problem with one turnout in both crossovers?

 

[RFS]

33 minutes ago, gordon s said:

Another question. At each end of the station I have a bay platform which is essentially a Y to allow trains to come in on one line, stop, change direction and then leave on the other line. In simple terms both legs of the Y are a crossover, but of course one of the turnouts in the station is part of both. Can that still be done with two switches, one in and one out, or will that be a problem with one turnout in both crossovers?

 

 

So you have something like this? 

 

 

In which case I think you need 3 switches.

 

[gordon s]

That's correct, so many thanks Robert, for the clarification. I'll now work through the whole plan to see exactly what I need.

[Ron Ron Ron]

12 hours ago, gordon s said:

 

Just wanted to check. Are you saying that I won't need the Alpha Mimic boards and the Alpha will perform both functions? If that is the case, I guess I have to delete the Mimic boards, but add all the necessary switches/LED's for the panel itself. I'm guessing those would be the accessory packs of LED's at £25 for 12. 60 motors will require 120 switch/led's so 10 packs would be £250.

 

That seems to be the same price for the Alpha Mimic boards?  I must be doing something wrong....

 

 

The Alpha Mimic is useful as a repeater mimic display, or as a mimic display to go with a separate bank of switches, buttons or a mini point lever frame. It only needs a simple connection to any place on the track or accessory bus.

 

The Alpha encoder is a different beast. It’s used as the control module for a mimic control panel, fitted with buttons or switches.

It can also be used with a separate panel or bank of switches or mini point levers.

When pricing it all up, make sure you include all the relevant bits you need.

This stuff plugs straight into an NCE system and only requires the simple Sniffer Adapter, to plug straight into an ECoS.

 

As you’ve been making use of YouTube to watch videos of the ECoS, it might be worthwhile looking at DCC Concepts YouTube channel and viewing the videos they’ve made, demonstrating various bits of the Cobalt Alpha range.

 

[gordon s]

'Tis me again.....

 

Many thanks for all your inputs and I'm close to going down the ECoS/Switch 8 route. I bought a Switch 8 yesterday and want to play around with switching two Tortoise motors in a crossover via one decoder in the Switch 8.

 

Searced around the web last night and it appears not to be a problem.

 

https://model-railroad-hobbyist.com/node/32027

 

Just a bit confused by the wiring that is suggested. I will run a separate accessory bus right around the layout and will protect the track bus via a PSX circuit breaker.

 

What I don't understand though is how to connect the Switch 8 to the two Tortoise motors from this diagram.

 

 

These are the contacts for the Tortoise. Any chance someone can tell me exactly which wire goes to which terminal. I'm confused by only one wire going from the NCE and which terminals are used for for the interconnection to the motor and between the two motors.

 

Is 'ground' the second bus wire?

 

 

This is how I plan to set out the two sets of bus wires.

 

 

Cheers

Edited February 2, 2020 by gordon s
Added bus diagram

[blueeighties]

That's a very confusing diagram. And what's a MK8? 

So on your switch 8, you have 2 wires that connect to the track. And a further 2 that go from one of the accessory outlets, to terminals 1 and 8 on the Tortoise motor. Simply daiychain from these 1 and 8s on the first motor,  to the 1 and 8s on the 2nd motor you wish to pair. Doing this will also address both motors the same during programming setup. If the second motor does not switch the intended way, simply reverse the wires connected to terminals 1and 8. 

[melmerby]

That diagram is wrong

Each Switch 8 port is two wires, each Tortoise motor is two wires. It is always powered up to approx 12v DC, there is no ground.

All that happens on operation is the output reverses (e.g. the + becomes - and the - becomes +)

 

On that diagram where does the + & - supply come from to power the second tortoise? You would need a separate +12v, 0, -12v, supply.

[RFS]

No problem with two Tortoises on one port: I have one Switch8 with 15 motors connected, for example. In all of mine I connect the two Switch8 outputs of the port to pins 1 and 8 of the first motor, and then to the second.

Edited February 2, 2020 by RFS

[melmerby]

As Robert (RFS) has emphasised several times, two Tortoises on one port of a Switch 8 is fine, I also have several crossovers with two on one port.

Ignore that rubbish that you linked to, they don't know what they are talking about.

Edited February 2, 2020 by melmerby

[gordon s]

I'm glad it not just me then....

 

Despite appearances I can understand stand the basics and have built a diode matrix before, so not a complete numpty, but I couldn't get my head round what on earth the diagram was suggesting.....

 

Thank God for RMweb and some sensible people. ECoS has been ordered and will be here Tuesday. No doubt there will be a few more cries for assistance once I get into the new box of tricks...

 

 

[Oldddudders]

An alternative way to wire the second tortoise is by using the switch contacts on the first one. This has the advantage that the points motor over sequentially, much like the prototype. 

[gordon s]

Thanks Ian. I thought that was what the US guys was suggesting, but can't get my head round how the polarity to the second motor is reversed via the switch contacts. How are you making those connections?

 

OK, I have another question which is beyond my existing knowledge base....

 

On my layout I have four parallel tracks with a crossover from track 1 to track 3. Where it crosses over track two there is a switched diamond crossing, so each turnout has its own Tortoise and the switched crossing has two Tortoise motors.  I'm guessing I can't run all four motors from one decoder, so any suggestions how to deal with the switching so that it is foolproof and you can't have conflicts?

 

In actual fact, looking at the pic, the turnout up towards the knife handle also comes into play, so there are five motors involved. Should they have separate inputs to the Switch 8 and the switching made via route setting in the ECoS?

 

Edited February 2, 2020 by gordon s

[BoD]

30 minutes ago, gordon s said:

Thanks Ian. I thought that was what the US guys was suggesting, but can't get my head round how the polarity to the second motor is reversed via the switch contacts. How are you making those connections?

 

OK, I have another question which is beyond my existing knowledge base....

 

On my layout I have four parallel tracks with a crossover from track 1 to track 3. Where it crosses over track two there is a switched diamond crossing, so each turnout has its own Tortoise and the switched crossing has two Tortoise motors.  I'm guessing I can't run all four motors from one decoder, so any suggestions how to deal with the switching so that it is foolproof and you can't have conflicts?

 

 

 

Each output on the Switch It can supply 40mA.  A tortoise draws about 15mA.  I’ll let you do the sums.  

 

I’ve not tried it myself, but as each output’s address can be set individually,  can you set two or more to the same address.  Then it would be just a case of getting the connections the right way round on the tortoise and firing one point address could set all 4/5.  That might not work at all but could be worth a try as you are experimenting.

[Nigelcliffe]

38 minutes ago, gordon s said:

Thanks Ian. I thought that was what the US guys was suggesting, but can't get my head round how the polarity to the second motor is reversed via the switch contacts. How are you making those connections?

 

 

 

From a cursory glance at the diagram, I think they are assuming a split power supply.  Which has +volts, 0volts and -volts.  This reduces the amount of wiring to the switch panel needed to operate tortoise.     Th split power supply can be achieved in two common ways:

 

a)  by half-rectifying one line from an AC power supply.  That gives the + and - wires (out from each diode), the 0V being the other wire back to the transformer.  I'm pretty sure this is detailed in the Tortoise manuals.

 

b)  by stacking two DC power supplies, connecting the 0v of one to the +V of the other.  Eg. two standard 12v switched mode PSUs can be used, which would give -12v, 0v, +12v  (0r, if one prefers to think of it as 0v, 12v, 24v, with the 12v being the common wire back).    If doing this, be sure that the PSUs use a two-pin mains connection, not a three-pin into the PSU.  With a three-pin there is a risk that the earth is also linked to the 0v, and in stacking the supplies you create a short circuit via the earth pin.   

 

 

- Nigel