Wickham Trolley

[cctransuk]

 As the manufacturer information quotes performance up to 4V supply, my inclination would be a motor in both car and trailer, wired in series. It is only going to be driven slowly, so provided the controller provides a small output at low settings all should be well electrically; and a driven axle on both vehicles should overcome any pick up drag.

 

I'd like to keep things as authentic as possible, so I think that either a switchable potential divider in the control panel providing 4v, or a separate 4v supply / controller, will be the way that I'll go. When (if?) Evercreech Junction is eventually built it will only be operated by me or closely supervised visitors, so I'm not too concerned about accidently running the Wickham on an excessive voltage.

 

I've been thinking about methods of coupling the trolley to its trailer, and a neodium mini-magnet inside the body behind the coupling, attracting a steel towbar, seems best so far. I have successfully used pairs of neodium mini-magnets inset into the buffing plates of Kitmaster Midland Pullman cars as inter-car couplings, so the method should work for a very lightweight trailer.

 

When I (eventually) get round to finishing the Midland Pullman, I am going to try the smallest mini-magnets glued to the end of black elastic beading thread, to couple up the inter-car jumper cables that were so prominent on the prototype.

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

[johnd]

Over on MRE mag, Bachmann have stated it will not have a DCC socket due to space constraints.

That's one order cancelled, not paying the expected amount and then it be DC only !

[cctransuk]

That's one order cancelled, not paying the expected amount and then it be DC only !

 

I've a funny feeling that this model is going to feature heavily in the BARGAIN section of several retailers' lists later in 2016.

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

[Combe Martin]

I think you might be over-stating the drag factor of the pickups and under-stating the power of the micro-motors.

 

I think if you were to leave those motors running for a considerable length of time, or have them running too fast or even try to make them take a load then you are right and it is asking for trouble. But since the real trolley's weren't used like that I can't see the model being a problem either.

 

The reason why I suggested LED's as an alternative is for the very reason of heat. LEDs generate practically no heat at all. As for the resistors though- considering it won't be likely to be run very long anyway, whether the heat will be as bad as suggested.

The reason I've cited 'pick up drag' is because I've seen plenty of examples of skidding unpowered wheels that have pick ups. All the modern(ish) Hornby locos I have, have tender pickups. Bullied Pacifics, loco drive 4Fs and 2Ps, 8F, Std 4. All suffer skidding tender wheels to a certain degree, and this is with a tender that's a lot heavier than a Wickham. With all these I've spent a lot of time fiddling with the tension of the pickup and can usually get it adjusted to have sufficient 'light touch' to stop the skidding wheel, but as I've said these tenders are a lot heavier than a Wickham. There are also pickups on the front bogie wheels of the 2P (both loco drive Hornby one, and an original tender drive Mainline one where I fitted them). They are very difficult to get sufficient light touch, and there's no weight in the front bogie.

 

As far as leaving a small motor running for a long time, or resistors not having time to loose their heat, yes I see what you'r getting at, but Bachmann couldn't really produce a model with a 'health warning' .... Warning don't run this model for more than a minute because you might damage the motor !

[Combe Martin]

That's one order cancelled, not paying the expected amount and then it be DC only !

Come on, we all knew it wasn't going to be DCC ready didn't we ... Surely. But as long as there are wires going to the motor, and they say there is a circuit board containing suppression bits which suggests there are wires, then a decoder can be hard wired in. That circuit board can be removed as the suppression bits won't be needed for DCC (Bachmann have to fit it but we can remove it). The interesting bit will be finding somewhere for the decoder. As they say all available space is filled with die-cast metal for weight, then maybe a very small decoder (ZTC262 or one from CT) can go where the circuit board was. If not, then maybe remove the weight to create space for the decoder and make a new weight to go over it. It might have to look like the trailer is 'piled high'. The other place for the decoder is in the roof of the Trolley, but this will need a bit of ingenuity with hiding the wires and routing them across the coupling.

Edited December 14, 2015 by Combe Martin

[BR(S)]

Come on, we all knew it wasn't going to be DCC ready didn't we ... Surely. But as long as there are wires going to the motor, and they say there is a circuit board containing suppression bits which suggests there are wires, then a decoder can be hard wired in. That circuit board can be removed as the suppression bits won't be needed for DCC (Bachmann have to fit it but we can remove it). The interesting bit will be finding somewhere for the decoder. As they say all available space is filled with die-cast metal for weight, then maybe a very small decoder (ZTC262 or one from CT) can go where the circuit board was. If not, then maybe remove the weight to create space for the decoder and make a new weight to go over it. It might have to look like the trailer is 'piled high'. The other place for the decoder is in the roof of the Trolley, but this will need a bit of ingenuity with hiding the wires and routing them across the coupling.

 

If only someone published a modelling magazine and could produce an article about DCC-ing the Wickham Trolley . . . 

Edited December 14, 2015 by BR(S)

[Combe Martin]

If only someone published a modelling magazine and could produce an article about DCC-ing the Wickham Trolley . . . 

I suspect they will once someone gets their hands on one.

[Dunsignalling]

If only someone published a modelling magazine and could produce an article about DCC-ing the Wickham Trolley . . . 

I imagine that, by three months after the model is launched, we'll be sick to death of articles describing the process..........   

 

John

[cctransuk]

Well - I indicated earlier in this thread that I had cancelled my pre-order for the Wickham trolley on seeing Bachmann's photos with the chunky powered trailer.

 

Not wishing to forego a trolley, though, I ordered an etched kit from http://www.nbrasslocos.co.uk/ooloco.html .

 

I also came across and ordered http://shop.kkpmo.com/advanced_search_result.php?keywords=G64M660P&XTCsid=433c8a6f4305797a110ba679a2d926e7, thinking that, from the stated dimensions, it might just fit the kit.

 

 

Well - it did.

 

However, the chassis in the kit required 1.5 x 1.0 mm. channel to be bent up from etched nickel silver - do-able but with some inevitable distortion. Moreover, having reduced the inner channels to allow a central 6.0 mm. wide slot for the motor / gearbox to fit in, the chassis became impossibly flimsy.

 

So - I decided to build a much more substantial chassis using milled brass channel section and bar; this would have the additional advantage of making the chassis much heavier.

 

I also assembled the roof for the trolley and filled the underside with sheet lead, allowing it to project a little below the lower edge of the roof. I sculpted the edges of the projection to give the appearance of the rolled and strapped canvas side screens.

 

The chassis was assembled with no problems, and the motor / gearbox fitted like the proverbial glove. As the drawing above suggested, it appeared that most / all of the mechanism could be contained within the etched engine casing.

 

Bench running from a 1.5 v supply via a 50 ohm potentiometer demonstrated very controllable operation with a reasonable top speed. (I hoped, eventually, to source a 6 mm. diameter 12 v replacement motor).

 

However, having fitted pick-ups, everything started to go downhill !!

 

Try as I might, and having trialled all sorts of pick-ups, I simply could not get reliable power pick-up or any decent traction, even with the solid brass chassis and the lead-filled roof. It rapidly became obvious why Bachmann have been forced to pursue the 'pushed by the chunky trailer' approach to their Wickham trolley.

 

I don't like to give up on a project, but this will be one of the few to date; I will complete the kit as an unpowered scenic feature, to stand on a siding or refuge rails. A shame, but some things are not to be !

 

Funnily enough, the only previous project abandonment that springs to mind was a 1980s attempt to motorise a Liliput (now Bachmann) Matisa using an N-scale motor bogie; similar problems and the same outcome. Perhaps I should have learned my lesson first time round.

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

[Combe Martin]

Many thanks for this John.

To summarise, the problems are that ...

- It's difficult to get reliable pickup from such a short wheelbase vehicle, hence Bachmann's solution of having the permanent trailer attached to pickup from more wheels and over a much longer wheelbase.

- Two wheel drive doesn't provide enough traction to move the vehicle, presumably you get wheel spin with such a small diameter wheel ?, and if the weight was even greater the small motor wouldn't have enough grunt ? So a bigger motor would be needed which would be even harder to hide, hence Bachmann maybe having to make a 4 wheel drive mechanism to get traction but which takes up more space, hence it's in the trailer and hidden by the load.

I'm now waiting for replies from all the 'know it alls' on here that slagged off Bachmann because of their solution to the problem, and telling you where you went wrong too. It's very noticeable that there havn't been any yet.

I won't hold my breath !

-

Edited February 5, 2016 by Combe Martin

[Derekstuart]

Are you inviting comments or inviting contempt?

 

I would imagine with a comment like that, those who are skilled in such things would probably not want to engage in discussion. I wouldn't blame them.

 

I'm now waiting for replies from all the 'know it alls' on here that slagged off Bachmann because of their solution to the problem, and telling you where you went wrong too. It's very noticeable that there havn't been any yet.

 

[Combe Martin]

Why would I be inviting contempt ?, my comments are because John has tried to motorise the kit Wickham and found he couldn't make it work with 2 major problem areas.  He used a small straightforward mechanism, but it wasn't sufficient. 

 

There were a number of posts on here to the effect that producing a working Wickham without trailer wasn't difficult and that Bachmann could have done much much better.

 

His post was more than a week ago now but none of those that made out that 'they know better' have commented.  I'd be interested to know where they think he went wrong ?

 

So, I'm inviting serious practical suggestions, but I'm not expecting many.  I suspect that most of the previous criticisms of Bachmann (and note, I've said most) were made without really thinking through what the problems could be and by quoting other mechanisms that weren't really comparable, and wern't from anyone skilled in such construction.  I've not tried any such construction myself but I certainly thought through the problems.     

Edited February 5, 2016 by Combe Martin

[cctransuk]

My comments are because John has tried to motorise the kit Wickham and found he couldn't make it work with 2 major problem areas.  He used a small straightforward mechanism, but it wasn't sufficient. 

 

There were a number of posts on here to the effect that producing a working Wickham without trailer wasn't difficult and that Bachmann could have done much much better.

 

His post was more than a week ago now but none of those that made out that 'they know better' have commented.  I'd be interested to know where they think he went wrong ?

 

So, I'm inviting serious practical suggestions, but I'm not expecting many.  I suspect that most of the previous criticisms of Bachmann (and note, I've said most) were made without really thinking through what the problems could be and by quoting other mechanisms that weren't really comparable, and wern't from anyone skilled in such construction.  I've not tried any such construction myself but I certainly thought through the problems.     

 

I will confess to being a former nay-sayer; I now know better.

 

For my money, the Bachmann model is still a no-no, but Bachmann clearly think that there is a viable market for it.

 

At least I now know why Bachmann have done what thay have done, and I too challenge anyone reading this to produce a truly 4mm. scale Wickham Type 27 trolley that is self-propelling in a realistic way, and that does not require a permanent, non-authentic trailer.

 

I genuinely hope that someone succeeds as I will immediately copy their design. That said, I know of one of the acknowledged 'experts' in this hobby who tried the same project that I did, and also failed.

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

[PhilJ W]

It seems that the only viable way to motorise one of these trolleys is to model it with side screens down. I have only seen pics of these trolleys with the screens down in truly awful weather, the sort of weather that is rarely modelled if at all.

[Combe Martin]

I will confess to being a former nay-sayer; I now know better.

 

For my money, the Bachmann model is still a no-no, but Bachmann clearly think that there is a viable market for it.

 

At least I now know why Bachmann have done what thay have done, and I too challenge anyone reading this to produce a truly 4mm. scale Wickham Type 27 trolley that is self-propelling in a realistic way, and that does not require a permanent, non-authentic trailer.

 

I genuinely hope that someone succeeds as I will immediately copy their design. That said, I know of one of the acknowledged 'experts' in this hobby who tried the same project that I did, and also failed.

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

 

John, you may have thought that you'd give this one a go yourself, but I don't recall you being critical of Bachmann and how they've done it, and you didn't make out that it was easy to produce something better.  Just that you didn't like their outcome.

 

Well I also would prefer a well performing self propelled trolley without trailer, but having carefully thought through the issues I realise this is 'nigh on' impossible on pick up grounds, and with a clever tiny mechanism expensive to assemble.   I do wonder if some realise how small a 4mm Wickham is.   Your diagram in your post 212 says 'Drawing actual size'.  It isn't on my laptop but looks about 50% bigger.   Somewhere on here is a photo of the kit etch that you used with a one pence coin against it.   That is a reminder of how small it is and the dificulty.     

[cctransuk]

John, you may have thought that you'd give this one a go yourself, but I don't recall you being critical of Bachmann and how they've done it, and you didn't make out that it was easy to produce something better.  Just that you didn't like their outcome.

 

Well I also would prefer a well performing self propelled trolley without trailer, but having carefully thought through the issues I realise this is 'nigh on' impossible on pick up grounds, and with a clever tiny mechanism expensive to assemble.   I do wonder if some realise how small a 4mm Wickham is.   Your diagram in your post 212 says 'Drawing actual size'.  It isn't on my laptop but looks about 50% bigger.   Somewhere on here is a photo of the kit etch that you used with a one pence coin against it.   That is a reminder of how small it is and the dificulty.     

 

The 'actual size' was printed on the kit instructions - which I reproduced to no particular scale.

 

This kit is, without a shadow of a doubt, some of the finest etching that I have encountered - even the gear lever is etched to scale; so thin in the shank that it is no more visible than a human hair !! The clutch pedal is a two part component with a mortise and tenon joint between the two parts. Having soldered the joint, you then solder the pedal in place in the footwell !!

 

As a test piece of one's ability to remove items from the fret, manipulate the parts without them pinging off into oblivion, and solder them in place, it is unsurpassed !!

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

[cctransuk]

I had intended writing-up the construction of the powered trolley from the N Brass Loco kit, and so I took some photos of the components.

 

 

 

 

 

 

In the latter photo, two of the supplied wheels have been removed from their axle, and fitted to brass tube sleeves to fit the motor / gearbox axle.

 

I hope that it is evident just how tiny the Wickham trolley is at true 4mm. scale; below I repeat the drawing to show how the tiny mechanism fills almost the full length of the model.

 

 

The mechanism has a 6 mm. diameter 1.5 - 4.0 v motor, which I hoped eventually to replace with a similar sized 12 v motor. However, I was sufficiently committed to this project to purchase the components to build a 0 - 3 v variable / reversible battery controller - which actually drove the mechanism very well as a free-runner.

 

But - it was not to be; (unless, of course, you know better ..............  )!!

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

[BlackRat]

Would it be possible to use an 'axle' slung motor or two?

 

Possibly a vibrator alarm motor from a mobile phone?

 

They are available from EBay, and some are tiny!

 

Eg......4mm X 8mm, 5 motors for less that £3.00!

Edited February 5, 2016 by BlackRat

[cctransuk]

Would it be possible to use an 'axle' slung motor or two?

 

Possibly a vibrator alarm motor from a mobile phone?

 

They are available from EBay, and some are tiny!

 

Eg......4mm X 8mm, 5 motors for less that £3.00!

 

You can get them smaller and cheaper than that; http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/231512665104?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT !!

 

Yep - I bought some, and with the cams carefully ground off, they run very smoothly.

 

The problem is not power, it's weight; the 6mm. dia. motor has more than enough of the former.

 

Those of us who've tried it agree that a scale Wickham cannot be made heavy enough to attain reliable pick-up or efficient traction. The wheels spin - when there is intermittent contact - but they can't grip the rails because of insufficient friction.

 

(I will find a use for those micromotors - I just don't know what it is at present) !!

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

Edited February 5, 2016 by cctransuk

[Red Devil]

I can vouch for the power in the motor/gearbox, they'll do this with a 1.5v battery supply, I can only imagine the problems of fitting pick ups and getting enough weight in something that small.

 

KKPMO powered 'Faller' bus.

 

[Derekstuart]

Martin

 

I have seen several people objectively consider the practicalities of motorising this unit. Whilst I may or may not disagree with their appraisal of this unit, they have stated that in their opinion it is not the ideal engineering solution.

 

There is no call to refer to them as "know it all's" and to criticise them for not successfully motorising a model that has not even been released yet.

 

This scenario is very similar to many others; recently I observed in a relevant thread that I found the virgin pendolino a horrible train (the real one that is) and was told that unless I could design a better one that I should shut up. I'm not sure you can argue with that level of stupidity. Likewise, just because someone has not (yet) been able to positively prove it can be done it does not mean they will not when it is released.

 

I am now going to visit the flat earth society and present them with photos from the ISS. They probably won't accept they're real though.

[PhilJ W]

Slightly off topic, when were they withdrawn? I'm collecting the Atlas 'World of Stobart' series that includes a fair amount of machinery that is used for track maintenance. Some of the models are too modern  but some are of machinery that dates back 30 to 40 years or more. I have ordered one but I wonder if Bachmann would consider releasing it without the trailer as an unpowered dummy?

[cal.n]

What are the wires from the powered trailer to the main car for, pickups?

[farren]

DCC maybe in the other half

[PaulRhB]

I'm now waiting for replies from all the 'know it alls' on here that slagged off Bachmann because of their solution to the problem, and telling you where you went wrong too. It's very noticeable that there havn't been any yet.

 

I won't hold my breath !

 

-

Ok so let's look at possible commercial solutions, it's possible to motorise a 2ft gauge simplex in 009 using a Kato Portram chassis, quite a lot have done it now including some on here, and it runs on 12v so with a bit of creativity I don't see why a solution can't be found for the Wickham. Putting a longer axle on the portram springs to mind as one option. I've got three of the portram models which all run well and there are various mini motor units available from Japan too.

I'm just wondering if the N brass is the better starting point or the Bachmann one.

Here's a thread off Gn15 info with half way down the portram chassis in a RT models simplex by Adrian Hoad.

http://gn15.info/forum/viewtopic.php?t=9736

 

Tomytec and World Craft, (6v on these), have several N gauge chassis around 15-16mm wheelbase that could be adapted too though they don't tend to have the really slow speed ability of the Kato chassis. Search PlazaJapan chassis.

Edited February 21, 2016 by PaulRhB