Wickham Trolley

[SRman]

Hmmm. I want one of these but I do want it to run on DCC. 

Once they hit the shelves, I hope someone will report on how much room there is to squeeze a small, hard-wired decoder in. To date, I have used three TCS Z2 decoders to convert Hornby and Dapol terriers. These are very small decoders, although I also like TCS M1/M4 decoders for their usefully small footprint.

[Combe Martin]

Your TCS decoders might be a bit big.  The German or Austrian one (whatever it is) that I'm thinking of is a CT micro decoder and its only 5mm x 7.6mm (half the size of the smallest TCS I think).  As long as that trailer load top can be removed and there are wires that can be cut it should be possible to wire one in.  Even if we have to make a new higher load top out of plasticard with ballast glued on to cover it.   

[SRman]

I used a couple of CT Elektronic 6-pin decoders in my two Bachmann E4 0-6-2T locomotives. These weren't the smallest ones available, but the E4s don't need that. They took a fair bit of fiddling with settings to get them to run properly, so I am not entirely convinced about CT Elektronik at this stage, although they are undoubtedly of good quality. It may help if they release a proper English translation for their manual - at the moment I have used partially translated versions from a couple of U.S. sites (with thanks to those who did go to the trouble of doing even that much).

However, I do take your point that the TCS decoders may well be too big. There isn't much to the Wickham trolleys!

[Gwiwer]

I'll accept a certain degree of "clunkiness" when tiny things are scaled down yet need to remain robust enough to support a motor and a modicum of handling.  The question is do I have any use for a motorised one at something in the region of £70 depending on retailer?  I honestly don't see it ever running on the layout but it would be a very good addition to one of the short sidings.

 

Thinking around I did invest in a motorised tamper and the 4-wheel trolley which first appeared a few years ago now.  The tamper motor gave up quite early in the piece and I haven't been bothered to do anything about it.  The trolley runs quite happily but as with the Wickham it really doesn't have much of a function as self-propelled rolling stock.

 

The jury's out.  

 

On bell codes it was 2-1-2 away from the SR to describe an engineer's trolley (though in some areas that code only applied if it had to enter or run through a tunnel and it was then 2-2-3 if there was no tunnel in the section); on the SR it was 2-2-2 if required to enter or go through a tunnel, 2-3-2 if running through the forward section or 1-3-1 if stopping in the forward section.  

[Phil Bullock]

IIRC its in the trailerPhil

Ah I stand corrected...thanks for getting the clarification gentlemen

 

Phil

[johnd]

Think in this day when more and more modellers are going DCC its a back wood step to only issue a model as DC only. Not all modellers would feel comfortable or able to fit a decoder in a model the size of the Whickam Trolley. A bit expensive (£70) for a model just to sit there.

 

Think I might just not bother now, how many others will be thinking the same !

[cctransuk]

Think in this day when more and more modellers are going DCC its a back wood step to only issue a model as DC only. Not all modellers would feel comfortable or able to fit a decoder in a model the size of the Whickam Trolley. A bit expensive (£70) for a model just to sit there.

 

Think I might just not bother now, how many others will be thinking the same !

 

Not because of the DCC - because I'm DC - but I have invested in http://www.nbrasslocos.co.uk/z4wick27.html plus Wickham Trailer Kit 4486 from the same source. Less than half the price of the Bachmann model, and much more convincing IMHO.

 

Not really expecting to motorise this, but I have ordered a few tiny micromotors from Ebay to play around with.

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

Edited December 12, 2015 by cctransuk

[Derekstuart]

This could be easily motored by using micro motors. Someone with a modest workshop could probably make their own motor directly on the axle. People have already done that. If you go to the CLAG website (google it) you will get some details.

 

I would suggest that it is the clunky wheels necessary for 00 that let this trolley down. Those using full gauge track, with realistic wheels may find it looks finer overall. If you think what standard 00 wheels are like if you remove the bogie side frames, you will see what I mean.

[cctransuk]

This could be easily motored by using micro motors. Someone with a modest workshop could probably make their own motor directly on the axle. People have already done that. If you go to the CLAG website (google it) you will get some details.

 

I would suggest that it is the clunky wheels necessary for 00 that let this trolley down. Those using full gauge track, with realistic wheels may find it looks finer overall. If you think what standard 00 wheels are like if you remove the bogie side frames, you will see what I mean.

 

The problem as I see it is that most micromotors seem to be typically 1.5 - 3v; I'm thinking of a separate 1.5v track supply that can be toggled with the normal 12v track supply.

 

Any better ideas anyone?

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

[Derekstuart]

Hi John

 

Personally, I think the idea of a twin voltage isn't a good one- one day someone will leave it on 12V and find their micro-motor trolley has the capability to overtake HST's for a second or two, before it burns out.

 

There are 2 options I think- either 2 motors wired in series with the remaining 6v taken up by resistors- which gives the challenge of space. Alternatively one motor and using the space around the second axle for resistors.

 

I am sure that either the crew and/or any tool boxes could be used to disguise resistors. Of course, tiny surface mount LEDs could be used in place of resistors. One or two in the roof (paint them with translucent paint to dim them) and perhaps a couple more underneath painted solid black (no light showing).

 

I don't know whether that would be a robust solution but once the novelty has worn off I cannot see people using this so much anyway.

[cctransuk]

Hi John

 

Personally, I think the idea of a twin voltage isn't a good one- one day someone will leave it on 12V and find their micro-motor trolley has the capability to overtake HST's for a second or two, before it burns out.

 

There are 2 options I think- either 2 motors wired in series with the remaining 6v taken up by resistors- which gives the challenge of space. Alternatively one motor and using the space around the second axle for resistors.

 

I am sure that either the crew and/or any tool boxes could be used to disguise resistors. Of course, tiny surface mount LEDs could be used in place of resistors. One or two in the roof (paint them with translucent paint to dim them) and perhaps a couple more underneath painted solid black (no light showing).

 

I don't know whether that would be a robust solution but once the novelty has worn off I cannot see people using this so much anyway.

 

Being an electrical ignoramus - just about up to V=IR - what resistance would I need, in parallel or series, to reduce 12v to 1.5v ?

 

Can such resistors be obtained in tiny sizes - I visualise the hefty ceramic type that I've previously played about with in these applications?

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

[Derekstuart]

Hi John

 

This might explain better than I can

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voltage_divider

 

Maplins should be able to provide all the resistors you need (IIRC there's a calculator online and in their book to help you work out which you need).

However, having just looked at a couple of guidance notes, I did not appreciate how much heat this might generate. I think this is going to take more than the 3.5 brain cells I still have left, but I know someone who will know what I know that I don't know.

[Dunsignalling]

The problem as I see it is that most micromotors seem to be typically 1.5 - 3v; I'm thinking of a separate 1.5v track supply that can be toggled with the normal 12v track supply.

 

Any better ideas anyone?

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

How about no pickups and just driving it off an on-board hearing aid battery?

 

John

[Derekstuart]

The only problem there is controlling it.

 

How about no pickups and just driving it off an on-board hearing aid battery?

 

John

[cctransuk]

Hi John

 

This might explain better than I can

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voltage_divider

 

Maplins should be able to provide all the resistors you need (IIRC there's a calculator online and in their book to help you work out which you need).

 

However, having just looked at a couple of guidance notes, I did not appreciate how much heat this might generate. I think this is going to take more than the 3.5 brain cells I still have left, but I know someone who will know what I know that I don't know.

 

I looked at this when I was considering driving, with micromotors, some scavenger fans in a model of GT3.

 

I was able there to use a bank of mini instrument fans as the other part of the load to simulate the sound of the gas turbine; no such option here!

 

I may be wrong, but surely the potential-splitting resistors are going to have to be pretty large to handle the generated heat - hence my thoughts of the large ceramic jobs!

 

Any further thoughts would be extremely welcome.

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

[SRman]

I like the idea of the battery. Make it a 3V one and add a metal spike on the front, and you'll have a new replacement / rival for the old Triang Battle Space Turbo Car! 

p.s. I agree with Derek regarding not mixing the voltages. There would be the ever-present danger he mentions that you would forget to switch the 12V off before placing the trolley on the track and POOF! Up it goes in smoke.

Edited December 13, 2015 by SRman

[Combe Martin]

This sounds to me like you'r all going through the options that Bachmann might have gone through when deciding how best to power the Wickham.

 

Plus don't forget that it's got to run reliably over plastic frog track which is why it has to have the trailer for the extra pickups and spread over a bit of length. Then add the fact that those pickups on the 3 unpowered axles will cause drag meaning the wheels will skid, so a bit of extra weight has to be built in. That then means the tiny motor that you want to go under the floor of the Trolley rather than the trailer needs a bit more 'grunt' to power the whole lot.

 

I'm sure I've seen it quoted on here that these tiny motors don't have 'grunt'. And are there tiny motors that run on 12 volts, I don't know. What's being quoted here is 1.5 and 3 volt motors and using resistors to reduce the voltage, that will produce heat that needs dissipating, and there's not much space for that. From what I've seen tiny motors have to run at high revs to 'do anything'. That means using a reduction gearbox which will take up space and sap what power the tiny motor does have.

 

Somewhere in this thread is a video of an N gauge Wickham on a Japanese chassis. But I'm thinking this is a 'red herring' really. It has to run at '100 mph' and even then hesitates on dead frog points.

 

There's also a link to a series of pictures showing a part built etched Nickel Silver kit Wickham, with what looks like a one piece power unit comprised of a small cylinder motor fitted to what looks like a nylon gearbox with a narrow diameter axle protruding. It looks very promising but there's no info on what voltage it is and its all dated 2013 and seems to have dried up. Is that because it didn't work ?

 

I've seen quotes about tiny motorised model cars, but they don't need to run across dead frog points and have pickups causing drag, so don't need weight and don't run on 12 volts, another 'red herring' I think.

 

I'm just trying to summarise the sort of arguments, for and against, why Bachmann have chosen to go down their desired route with the Wickham.

 

Please don't shoot the messenger.

Edited December 13, 2015 by Combe Martin

[cctransuk]

This sounds to me like you'r all going through the options that Bachmann might have gone through when deciding how best to power the Wickham.

 

Plus don't forget that it's got to run reliably over plastic frog track which is why it has to have the trailer for the extra pickups and spread over a bit of length. Then add the fact that those pickups on the 3 unpowered axles will cause drag meaning the wheels will skid, so a bit of extra weight has to be built in. That then means the tiny motor that you want to go under the floor of the Trolley rather than the trailer needs a bit more 'grunt' to power the whole lot.

 

I'm sure I've seen it quoted on here that these tiny motors don't have 'grunt'. And are there tiny motors that run on 12 volts, I don't know. What's being quoted here is 1.5 and 3 volt motors and using resistors to reduce the voltage, that will produce heat that needs dissipating, and there's not much space for that. From what I've seen tiny motors have to run at high revs to 'do anything'. That means using a reduction gearbox which will take up space and sap what power the tiny motor does have.

 

Somewhere in this thread is a video of an N gauge Wickham on a Japanese chassis. But I'm thinking this is a 'red herring' really. It has to run at '100 mph' and even then hesitates on dead frog points.

 

There's also a link to a series of pictures showing a part built etched Nickel Silver kit Wickham, with what looks like a one piece power unit comprised of a small cylinder motor fitted to what looks like a nylon gearbox with a narrow diameter axle protruding. It looks very promising but there's no info on what voltage it is and its all dated 2013 and seems to have dried up. Is that because it didn't work ?

 

I've seen quotes about tiny motorised model cars, but they don't need to run across dead frog points and have pickups causing drag, so don't need weight and don't run on 12 volts, another 'red herring' I think.

 

I'm just trying to summarise the sort of arguments, for and against, why Bachmann have chosen to go down their desired route with the Wickham.

 

Please don't shoot the messenger.

 

All very valid points, and it may well come to nothing.

 

I can buy ten 3v micromotors, 6mm. x 4mm., for £5.00 with free delivery - it's got to be worth playing around with!

 

These micromotors come with an eccentric cam to act as a vibrator in a pager - if they've got the torque and bearings to withstand that kind of load, they can't be too delicate or lacking in ooomph!

 

If I end up with what I have bought a kit for - an unpowered Wickham which has the delicacy of the real thing, rather than the 'chunky' running Bachmann model - so be it; it'll be fun getting there.

 

Don't get me wrong - Bachmann's has to be a robust toy; I want a near-scale model, even if it just looks good sitting there. If it does run, so much the better and, yes, it will need the trailer for additional pick-ups, but the kit trailer is a scale model, not the over-bloated thing that pushes the Bachmann trolley around.

 

Each to their own !!

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

Edited December 13, 2015 by cctransuk

[Red Devil]

All very valid points, and it may well come to nothing.

 

I can buy ten 3v micromotors, 6mm. x 4mm., for £5.00 with free delivery - it's got to be worth playing around with!

 

These micromotors come with an eccentric cam to act as a vibrator in a pager - if they've got the torque and bearings to withstand that kind of load, they can't be too delicate or lacking in ooomph!

 

If I end up with what I have bought a kit for - an unpowered Wickham which has the delicacy of the real thing, rather than the 'chunky' running Bachmann model - so be it; it'll be fun getting there.

 

Don't get me wrong - Bachmann's has to be a robust toy; I want a near-scale model, even if it just looks good sitting there. If it does run, so much the better and, yes, it will need the trailer for additional pick-ups, but the kit trailer is a scale model, not the over-bloated thing that pushes the Bachmann trolley around.

 

Each to their own !!

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

Might not be what you're thinking of but thought it might be a bit of help....

 

http://shop.kkpmo.com/product_info.php?info=p995_g252m660p-gearmotor-with-ratio-252-1.html

 

http://shop.kkpmo.com/product_info.php?info=p938_g324m660p-gearmotor-with-ratio-324-1.html

 

I use the 1:48 version with a 1.5v battery to power Faller Car system type vehicles, they're pretty small and have a 1mm axle, I know nothing about Wickham trollies so they may be completely useless for that application!

Edited December 13, 2015 by Red Devil

[Combe Martin]

All very valid points, and it may well come to nothing.

 

I can buy ten 3v micromotors, 6mm. x 4mm., for £5.00 with free delivery - it's got to be worth playing around with!

 

These micromotors come with an eccentric cam to act as a vibrator in a pager - if they've got the torque and bearings to withstand that kind of load, they can't be too delicate or lacking in ooomph!

 

If I end up with what I have bought a kit for - an unpowered Wickham which has the delicacy of the real thing, rather than the 'chunky' running Bachmann model - so be it; it'll be fun getting there.

 

Don't get me wrong - Bachmann's has to be a robust toy; I want a near-scale model, even if it just looks good sitting there. If it does run, so much the better and, yes, it will need the trailer for additional pick-ups, but the kit trailer is a scale model, not the over-bloated thing that pushes the Bachmann trolley around.

 

Each to their own !!

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

What I'm getting at is once you've realised it has to have the trailer for the extra pickups, the rest follows logically on from that. You need weight in both vehicles to stop the pickups from making the unpowered wheels skid. That means a motor with more grunt than used to power a plastic car. Its got to be a 12 volt motor unless your going to use resistors (with space for cooling) to step the voltage down, and how small is the smallest 12 volt motor ?, I don't know that one. Yes I know they're fitted to N gauge locos, but the N gauge chassis I've seen seem to be all chassis with motor built in, so not that small. OK, we don't know what motor Bachmann are using in the trailer, but it must be quite small and low anyway. The trailer I would say is shorter and lower but wider than an N gauge tank loco. It just might have been possible to develop a clever very small and flat and very low 12 volt mechanism with enough power to drag 3 unpowered (and being held back by pickups) axles along, but at what cost, and what about the cost of complicated assembly. As has been pointed out, people already think N gauge locos are too expensive.

Edited December 13, 2015 by Combe Martin

[Derekstuart]

Hello Martin

 

I think you might be over-stating the drag factor of the pickups and under-stating the power of the micro-motors.

 

I think if you were to leave those motors running for a considerable length of time, or have them running too fast or even try to make them take a load then you are right and it is asking for trouble. But since the real trolley's weren't used like that I can't see the model being a problem either.

 

The reason why I suggested LED's as an alternative is for the very reason of heat. LEDs generate practically no heat at all. As for the resistors though- considering it won't be likely to be run very long anyway, whether the heat will be as bad as suggested.

 

One other idea for John- how about towing a trailer- one of those fine kit ones- that could be used to "hide" a decoder and/or resistor under a load. I can understand why people might be a little reticent with the Bachmann trailer as it is a little clunky, or is it just having a trailer full stop that is a possible issue?

[cctransuk]

Might not be what you're thinking of but thought it might be a bit of help....

 

http://shop.kkpmo.com/product_info.php?info=p995_g252m660p-gearmotor-with-ratio-252-1.html

 

http://shop.kkpmo.com/product_info.php?info=p938_g324m660p-gearmotor-with-ratio-324-1.html

 

I use the 1:48 version with a 1.5v battery to power Faller Car system type vehicles, they're pretty small and have a 1mm axle, I know nothing about Wickham trollies so they may be completely useless for that application!

 

Red Devil,

 

Thanks very much for that - as a consequence I'm looking at http://shop.kkpmo.com/product_info.php?info=p1029_g64m660p-gearmotor-with-ratio-64-1.html .

 

 

Now the problems of weight and pickups may ultimately prove to be insuperable, but this drive unit seems, on the face of it, to have been made with a 4mm. scale wickham trolley in mind !

 

We'll see.

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

Edited December 13, 2015 by cctransuk

[cctransuk]

Hello Martin

 

I think you might be over-stating the drag factor of the pickups and under-stating the power of the micro-motors.

 

I think if you were to leave those motors running for a considerable length of time, or have them running too fast or even try to make them take a load then you are right and it is asking for trouble. But since the real trolley's weren't used like that I can't see the model being a problem either.

 

The reason why I suggested LED's as an alternative is for the very reason of heat. LEDs generate practically no heat at all. As for the resistors though- considering it won't be likely to be run very long anyway, whether the heat will be as bad as suggested.

 

One other idea for John- how about towing a trailer- one of those fine kit ones- that could be used to "hide" a decoder and/or resistor under a load. I can understand why people might be a little reticent with the Bachmann trailer as it is a little clunky, or is it just having a trailer full stop that is a possible issue?

 

I won't need a decoder as I'm a DC Luddite, but the idea of resistors or whatever in the trailer could well be viable. However, there seems to be a bit of spare space in the prototypical engine casing at present. A solid lead roof, (flat on the underside), may assist with traction.

 

As I said - we'll see.

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

[steveb860]

Over on MRE mag, Bachmann have stated it will not have a DCC socket due to space constraints.

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

... Now the problems of weight and pickups may ultimately prove to be insuperable, but this drive unit seems, on the face of it, to have been made with a 4mm. scale wickham trolley in mind !...

 As the manufacturer information quotes performance up to 4V supply, my inclination would be a motor in both car and trailer, wired in series. It is only going to be driven slowly, so provided the controller provides a small output at low settings all should be well electrically; and a driven axle on both vehicles should overcome any pick up drag.