Train spotting at Finsbury Square

[Mallard60022]

See the down Main and actual Point on the down Sation Loop.

This is on Flicker.

Easier to see if you enlarge.

Phil

[31A]

37 minutes ago, Mallard60022 said:

 

 

See the down Main and actual Point on the down Sation Loop.

This is on Flicker.

Easier to see if you enlarge.

Phil

 

That DOES look like a locking or fouling bar, with the purpose of preventing the point blade from being moved while a vehicle is passing over it.  Although again, that seems a little odd as (without detailed knowledge of the location) it seems to be a trailing point and trying to move it while a train was passing over wouldn't cause a derailment.

[31A]

Anyone interested in learning more about how Main Line trains worked to Moorgate and other places in Central London over the LT "Widened Lines" could do worse that to get the two small books "Steam on the Widened Lines" Vols. 1 and 2 by Geoff Goslin (Connor & Butler, 1997).  Although the text concentrates on the various loco types used, they give an insight into how the traffic was worked and include a lot of photos showing the stations and other locations on the route.

[Mallard60022]

1 hour ago, 31A said:

 

That DOES look like a locking or fouling bar, with the purpose of preventing the point blade from being moved while a vehicle is passing over it.  Although again, that seems a little odd as (without detailed knowledge of the location) it seems to be a trailing point and trying to move it while a train was passing over wouldn't cause a derailment.

That end of the Station is where shunts too place to collect dropped off Coaches (for Seaton) from the Stopping Expresses. There are two Dummies if you look, allowing progress east. 

I'm fairly sure it was to indicate to the Bobby if something was there, but I can't quite work out what the movement would be, other than when the Dummies were set to proceed East (behind the camera)?

Coaches in the Down Platform would possibly obstruct the view from the Box. 

Behind the Camera and on the Up Main, was a Trailing X Over to the Down Main and thus to the Platform Loop, beyond the Bridge from which this pic was taken. At the X Over there was a Signal and a Shunter's Telephone with Buttons etc. as there were in a couple of other distant places within the Station and Yard areas. here was a Bracket Home gantry, protecting this Crossover and giving clearance to the Down Main through, or Down Platform Loop.

It's actually quite an interesting layout at SJ, allowing shunting moves from the Branch on to both Up and Down Mains and Platform Loops. The Branch Train, both Loco and P.P. Coaches, often shunted to both Up Loop and Down Loop via the Mains and I have pics to prove it!

Phil

[Mallard60022]

Shuntingonto the dropped Down for Seaton. The Loco and PP then propelled that BSO West and reversed onto the Branch.

[5BarVT]

7 hours ago, Mallard60022 said:

See the down Main and actual Point on the down Sation Loop.

This is on Flicker.

Easier to see if you enlarge.

Phil

 

7 hours ago, 31A said:

 

That DOES look like a locking or fouling bar, with the purpose of preventing the point blade from being moved while a vehicle is passing over it.  Although again, that seems a little odd as (without detailed knowledge of the location) it seems to be a trailing point and trying to move it while a train was passing over wouldn't cause a derailment.

Sorry folks, going to disagree again!

If you look there’s also a bar on the down through and that one looks like you can see the pivots.  They are both located where you would have what the GWR called a Weighted Fouling Bar whose purpose was to indicate to the signalman that a train was clear of points.  So the facing points Down Through / Down Local would have an FPL Bar to prevent moving the points as the train was passing over, but the WFB were to prove the train clear of the points so that the signalman knew it was safe to pass a train to/from the other line.  All three bars were later replaced by track circuits from what I can see on the fuzzy SRS plan.

Paul.

 

[5BarVT]

10 hours ago, Pacific231G said:

(what an excellent find Harsig is)

Indeed so, I’ve lost many hours there!

Paul.

[31A]

37 minutes ago, 5BarVT said:

 

Sorry folks, going to disagree again!

If you look there’s also a bar on the down through and that one looks like you can see the pivots.  They are both located where you would have what the GWR called a Weighted Fouling Bar whose purpose was to indicate to the signalman that a train was clear of points.  So the facing points Down Through / Down Local would have an FPL Bar to prevent moving the points as the train was passing over, but the WFB were to prove the train clear of the points so that the signalman knew it was safe to pass a train to/from the other line.  All three bars were later replaced by track circuits from what I can see on the fuzzy SRS plan.

Paul.

 

 

Thank you Paul, no need to apologise!  There is obviously more to this S&T stuff than I knew (and I did think I knew a bit), so it's always good to hear from somebody who DOES know.

 

[Mallard60022]

12 hours ago, 5BarVT said:

 

Sorry folks, going to disagree again!

If you look there’s also a bar on the down through and that one looks like you can see the pivots.  They are both located where you would have what the GWR called a Weighted Fouling Bar whose purpose was to indicate to the signalman that a train was clear of points.  So the facing points Down Through / Down Local would have an FPL Bar to prevent moving the points as the train was passing over, but the WFB were to prove the train clear of the points so that the signalman knew it was safe to pass a train to/from the other line.  All three bars were later replaced by track circuits from what I can see on the fuzzy SRS plan.

Paul.

 

So they are a method confirming position/a movement?

Phil

[Clive Mortimore]

At the ends of the suburban platforms at Kings Cross were similar bars, they indicated to the signalman that there was a loco still standing there. There were also some at the country end of the mainline platforms, again to remind the signalman there was a loco hanging about.

 

Why would you a want a fouling bar at an ash pit? Surely a fouling bar being depressed with a 71 ton N2 on it would prevent the signalman from pulling the lever to allow the trap point to be set so the loco could get off the ash pit.

[Pacific231G]

16 minutes ago, Clive Mortimore said:

At the ends of the suburban platforms at Kings Cross were similar bars, they indicated to the signalman that there was a loco still standing there. There were also some at the country end of the mainline platforms, again to remind the signalman there was a loco hanging about.

 

Why would you a want a fouling bar at an ash pit? Surely a fouling bar being depressed with a 71 ton N2 on it would prevent the signalman from pulling the lever to allow the trap point to be set so the loco could get off the ash pit.

The theory was that it was a conditional fouling bar specially set up to prevent the signalman from restoring the trap prematurely, after setting it to allow a loco to leave, until the loco had cleared the trap. It wouldn't prevent the lever being pullled to set the trap and it wouldn't prevent the lever being restored when there was no loco present.   The trap wouldn't need to be set for the loco to trail it enter the spur.  Such an arrangement would be perfectly logical but it turned out that the trap was operated by the same lever as the points to the loco spur so that theory wouldn't work: therefore the bar must be a detector.  Another photo showed a similar looking bar at the buffer end of the adjoining platform at Moorgate St. so confirmed its purpose.   

Having established its purpose, does anyone know how such mechanical detectors appeared in the signalbox?

[Clive Mortimore]

I have had a second look at the photo and have realised I have made a massive mistake.

 

9 hours ago, Clive Mortimore said:

At the ends of the suburban platforms at Kings Cross were similar bars, they indicated to the signalman that there was a loco still standing there. There were also some at the country end of the mainline platforms, again to remind the signalman there was a loco hanging about.

 

Why would you a want a fouling bar at an ash pit? Surely a fouling bar being depressed with a 71 ton N2 on it would prevent the signalman from pulling the lever to allow the trap point to be set so the loco could get off the ash pit.

The loco siding in question would not have a 71 ton N2 on it but a nearly 72 ton LMS class 3 Passenger tank. We are looking at the LMR loco siding.

Edited August 5, 2023 by Clive Mortimore

[chris45lsw]

On 04/08/2023 at 17:31, Mallard60022 said:

Shuntingonto the dropped Down for Seaton. The Loco and PP then propelled that BSO West and reversed onto the Branch.

To be pedantic that's a BCK (Diagram 2006)!

 

Chris KT

[Mallard60022]

9 minutes ago, chris45lsw said:

To be pedantic that's a BCK (Diagram 2006)!

 

Chris KT

No problem I couldn't remember and thought it was a Semi Open. Of course, the 'Loose BCK'!

Ta

Phil

[31A]

Not much to report lately; not that I have been idle, but have been sweating away over a hot soldering iron building some more brass coaches, of which more later.

 

But this evening's running session produced a Significant Event; the first scheduled working of the A5 tank no. 69814.  This is the Sonic Models model which I bought back in February, but such are the machinations of the loco rostering system that its place in the roster didn't occur until today!

 

Needless to say the enthusiast grapevine was buzzing and the local spotters were out with their cameras to record this momentous event.

 

 

 

[Mallard60022]

Ooooof. Love that last pic. Great angle, great colouring of the buildings and Loco's in the condition as if I were observing them on the Down Suburban Platform at Kings Cross in 1960. Lovely stuff Steve.

That 97XX you will be creating, will fit in that scene comfortably.

All the best.

Phil

[31A]

So, these brass coaches that I hinted at.

 

I'm making a pair of ex LNER Diagram 198 Full Brakes (BGs), which were Gresley outline coaches but with steel panelled sides rather than the usual teak panelling.  A picture of E70365E is on Paul Bartlett's web site:

 

https://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/lnerparcels

 

One is for me, and one for a friend.

 

Comet do a kit for these vehicles, but I chose to only use the Comet sides, and the plastic roof moulding from the Comet range - the other parts are from MJT.  Various reasons for this; mainly because the cross sectional profile of these vans was different from passenger carrying vehicles, being 8' 6" wide.  The profile is the same as the 'inset' portion of a Gresley Brake 3rd, for example.

 

The MJT range includes an underframe / floor kit specifically for this type of van, and they sell the 8' 6" wide ends as pairs which as far as I can see Comet don't.  But, perhaps this wasn't the best choice as it turned out!

 

The bogies are also from MJT; I have used the 8' wb 'Heavy' type which I believe is correct for this kind of vehicle.  Here are the four bogies assembled:

 

 

The 'riding tabs' that keep the body upright have only been folded up on half the bogies, and each coach gets one with and one without.  This means the bogie with the folded up tabs keeps the body upright while the other bogie is free to rock in any direction as it just rides on the securing nut on the floor, giving a form of three point suspension.

 

The MJT system has the ends as part of the floor as they intend you to build the body up from the floor and put the roof on last.  However I prefer to keep the body separate from the floor, and leave it detachable in case you ever need to get inside again.  So, I detached the ends from the floor.  Here is the beginning of the underframe construction, one floor is assembled and the solebars for the second are in the foreground.  The MJT kit provides a nice etched overlay for the solebars giving rivet detail etc., however I then realised these vans had welded underframes with no apparent rivets, so I left these overlays off.  I did however run a length of 0.45mm brass wire along the bottom edge of the solebar to represent the bottom flange of the 'bulb angle' steel the LNER used.  This would have been simpler of I'd used the Comet underframe!  I added steps from 3mm x 1mm brass angle, with the short side sitting on top of the lower solebar flange.  It was easier to add these parts before attaching the solebars to the floor.

 

 

The rest of the underframe was pretty straightforward using MJT components.  Guards' steps are made from 3mm x 1.5mm brass angle and etch scrap.  My soldering isn't very neat so to avoid embarrassing myself, here's a couple of pictures of the finished underframes after spraying with Halford's Etch Primer.  You can see the holes in each corner for 10BA screws which will fasten the body; thanks to @jwealleans for this idea.

 

 

 

I've never used the MJT castings for the truss rods and cross bracing before, and found these a bit fiddly to use, as well as adding weight to the finished model, and again I wonder whether the Comet parts would have been easier / better, as the truss rods fold down from the floor.  Anyway, it's done now.

 

Here are the two underframes finished and painted black:

 

 

Bodies next!

 

[31A]

Moving on (not so swiftly) to the bodies of these vans.

 

As I said, the sides are from Comet.  One pair I'd had for a long time, and was supplied flat, while the other pair I bought recently and came with the tumblehome already formed.  So, I put the curve into the flat pair, then decided the pre-formed ones had too much curve on them, so I've attempted to flatten those a bit.  There is still a difference between the pairs, though.

 

The sides come with half etched 'pops' on the sides to indicate the positions of the handrails, door handles and door stops, but not the door hinges.  On smooth sided coaches like this I don't think you can leave anything off and get away with it, so the first thing was to mark out the positions of the hinges, and drill through all the holes (remembering that the Guard's doors open inwards).  At this stage, I realised a BG has more doors than a seven compartment Corridor Third!  Albeit fewer droplights.

 

The door furniture is from MJT (from Dart Castings), as are the Guard's lookouts, and the hinges are also from Dart, from the Frogmore Confederacy range and listed as GWR although I defy anyone to tell the difference!

 

The Guard's door handrails are from 0.33mm brass wire.  Always interesting making these with their T formation, to get the horizontal ones level and with a robust joint to the vertical ones.  Ventilator hoods above the doors are from brass strip (etch scrap).  Door stops were made by soldering 0.45mm brass wire through the drilled holes then filing off to length.

 

At this stage, you can also see I've soldered a length of brass etch scrap along the top edges of the sides, above the topligts, to keep the sides straight and give a firm attachment for the roof.

 

 

After that, it was a quick job to solder up the sides to the brass inner ends.  I have added more brass strip across the ends, soldered to the ends and the side reinforcement, to help hold the whole thing square during construction, as much as anything.  This needs to take account of the eventual glazing of the toplights, though!  The one on the right has been temporarily placed in position on its underframe.

 

 

Next was to prepare the cast ends.  As far as I'm aware nobody makes castings that represent the ends of LNER steel panelled coaches; the MJT 8' 6" wide (for brake vans) ones where used, but all the panelling detail had to be removed by a mixture of filing, scraping and sanding.  As I was going to be using the Comet Models plastic roof moulding, the top profile of the ends had to be modified to match this rather than the MJT cast roof ends that it is intended for.

 

So, there was a lot of filing, sanding and scraping and at this point I could imagine @Clive Mortimore telling me to reach for a lump of plasticard instead - if he had done, it would have been good advice!  Anyway, eventually it was done.  In the picture below the lower ends have been modified and the originals are above.

 

 

So, the cast ends were attached to the brass inner ends with low melt solder, with attention paid to ensuring there was no gap at the edges where the ends meet the sides.

 

As I imagine these vehicles will spend most of their lives in parcels trains, I decided to fit solid gangways with open ends, rather than the MJT folded paper type with gangway shields that I usually use.  Hence one van got Comet gangways, and for the other I used the last of my stash of Westward Models castings - there's a name from the past!

 

 

The above picture shows the attachment brackets inside the ends that I made to attach the bodies to the underframes.  Thanks to @jwealleans for this idea, but I made them from brass that was thick enough to take a 10BA tap rather than fiddle about soldering loose nuts to them.  You can also see the reinforcing strut I fitted between the sides half way along, to help keep the bottom of the sides in line.  The lack of any interior in vans like this made this easier, although getting the length right was a bit of trial and error, especially as it has to fit a bit up from the bottom to clear the up stands either side of the floor.

 

Then the next thing was fitting the roofs; these were tacked in place with Evo Stick then fixed permanently with Araldite.  I had perviously drilled for the vents, and fitted these after the roofs were attached.  Thankfully no passenger alarm or water filling fittings on these vans!

 

 

Which brings us just about up to the current state of play.  Basic painting finished; initially with Halford's etching primer (which is grey) followed by a quick squirt of red oxide primer, then the maroon livery which is Halford's Ford Burgundy Red.  The one nearest the camera shows the high tech painting jig; long 10BA bolts screwed into the body brackets and sitting in holes in bits of wood.

 

Edited October 19, 2023 by 31A

[Mallard60022]

19 minutes ago, 31A said:

Moving on (not so swiftly) to the bodies of these vans.

 

As I said, the sides are from Comet.  One pair I'd had for a long time, and was supplied flat, while the other pair I bought recently and came with the tumblehome already formed.  So, I put the curve into the flat pair, then decided the pre-formed ones had too much curve on them, so I've attempted to flatten those a bit.  There is still a difference between the pairs, though.

 

The sides come with half etched 'pops' on the sides to indicate the positions of the handrails, door handles and door stops, but not the door hinges.  On smooth sided coaches like this I don't think you can leave anything off and get away with it, so the first thing was to mark out the positions of the hinges, and drill through all the holes (remembering that the Guard's doors open inwards).  At this stage, I realised a BG has more doors than a seven compartment Corridor Third!  Albeit fewer droplights.

 

The door furniture is from MJT (from Dart Castings), as are the Guard's lookouts, and the hinges are also from Dart, from the Frogmore Confederacy range and listed as GWR although I defy anyone to tell the difference!

 

The Guard's door handrails are from 0.33mm brass wire.  Always interesting making these with their T formation, to get the horizontal ones level and with a robust joint to the vertical ones.  Ventilator hoods above the doors are from brass strip (etch scrap).  Door stops were made by soldering 0.45mm brass wire through the drilled holes then filing off to length.

 

At this stage, you can also see I've soldered a length of brass etch scrap along the top edges of the sides, above the topligts, to keep the sides straight and give a firm attachment for the roof.

 

 

After that, it was a quick job to solder up the sides to the brass inner ends.  I have added more brass strip across the ends, soldered to the ends and the side reinforcement, to help hold the whole thing square during construction, as much as anything.  This needs to take account of the eventual glazing of the toplights, though!  The one on the right has been temporarily placed in position on its underframe.

 

 

Next was to prepare the cast ends.  As far as I'm aware nobody makes castings that represent the ends of LNER steel panelled coaches; the MJT 8' 6" wide (for brake vans) ones where used, but all the panelling detail had to be removed by a mixture of filing, scraping and sanding.  As I was going to be using the Comet Models plastic roof moulding, the top profile of the ends had to be modified to match this rather than the MJT cast roof ends that it is intended for.

 

So, there was a lot of filing, sanding and scraping and at this point I could imagine @Clive Mortimore telling me to reach for a lump of plasticard instead - if he had done, it would have been good advice!  Anyway, eventually it was done.  In the picture below the lower ends have been modified and the originals are above.

 

 

So, the cast ends were attached to the brass inner ends with low melt solder, with attention paid to ensuring there was no gap at the edges where the ends meet the sides.

 

As I imagine these vehicles will spend most of their lives in parcels trains, I decided to fit solid gangways with open ends, rather than the MJT folded paper type with gangway shields that I usually use.  Hence one van got Comet gangways, and for the other I used the last of my stash of Westward Models castings - there's a name from the past!

 

 

The above picture shows the attachment brackets inside the ends that I made to attach the bodies to the underframes.  Thanks to @jwealleans for this idea, but I made them from brass that was thick enough to take a 10BA tap rather than fiddle about soldering loose nuts to them.  You can also see the reinforcing strut I fitted between the sides half way along, to help keep the bottom of the sides in line.  The lack of any interior in vans like this made this easier, although getting the length right was a bit of trial and error, especially as it has to fit a bit up from the bottom to clear the up stands either side of the floor.

 

Then the next thing was fitting the roofs; these were tacked in place with Evo Stick then fixed permanently with Araldite.  I had perviously drilled for the vents, and fitted these after the roofs were attached.  Thankfully no passenger alarm or water filling fittings on these vans!

 

 

Which brings us just about up to the current state of play.  Basic painting finished; initially with Halford's etching primer (which is grey) followed by a quick squirt of red oxide primer, then the maroon livery which is Halford's Ford Burgundy Red.  The one nearest the camera shows the high tech painting jig; long 10BA bolts screwed into the body brackets and sitting in holes in bits of wood.

 

Class stuff Steve, however there is something that you mentioned that made me go cold! Guards' Doors opening inwards. I am absolutely sure I have NOT done that on any of my Builds on any Coaches! Ignorance on my part, is not bliss and I shall now have to check all the damn things, most of which are Bulleid Passenger Coaches and I have no idea how the Guard's Door(s) worked on those!

The one or two of these ER types I've done (badly, as you know already) I am going to tackle First. How embarrassing, so thank you for mentioning that one small fact.

Love this JIg by the way!

Also, I find the Plastic Roof work just so relaxing after hours of soldering and, in my case, faffing!

Phil

[30368]

9 minutes ago, Mallard60022 said:

Class stuff Steve, however there is something that you mentioned that made me go cold! Guards' Doors opening inwards.

 

I'm no expert on coaching matters but my recollection of Bulleid, Maunsell and BR Mk1 stock, including EMU's, is that the guards door always opened inwards so that the guard could safely close his door from inside the vehicle. 

 

Kind regards,

 

30368

[Mallard60022]

20 minutes ago, 30368 said:

 

I'm no expert on coaching matters but my recollection of Bulleid, Maunsell and BR Mk1 stock, including EMU's, is that the guards door always opened inwards so that the guard could safely close his door from inside the vehicle. 

 

Kind regards,

 

30368

I hate to be obtuse Richard, but aren't there Hinges on all the Guard's Doors on this Loose Brake? Both actual Guard and the Luggage Compartment Double Doors? I'm happy to be advised otherwise.

If you click on the pic it comes up and you can enlarge it a bit I think?

Sorry Steve to interrupt your flow here

Phil 

[5BarVT]

On 07/10/2023 at 17:42, 31A said:

The 'riding tabs' that keep the body upright have only been folded up on half the bogies, and each coach gets one with and one without.  This means the bogie with the folded up tabs keeps the body upright while the other bogie is free to rock in any direction as it just rides on the securing nut on the floor, giving a form of three point suspension.

Brass coaches all perceived to be way out of my skill set, but I understand enough to be impressed by the above methodology.  Potentially transferrable (with care) to plastic bodies and bogies if riding is a problem.

Paul.

[Clive Mortimore]

2 hours ago, 31A said:

So, there was a lot of filing, sanding and scraping and at this point I could imagine @Clive Mortimore telling me to reach for a lump of plasticard instead - if he had done, it would have been good advice!  Anyway, eventually it was done.  In the picture below the lower ends have been modified and the originals are above.

 

I don't know what you mean, a lump of plasticard?

 

[Clive Mortimore]

1 hour ago, Mallard60022 said:

I hate to be obtuse Richard, but aren't there Hinges on all the Guard's Doors on this Loose Brake? Both actual Guard and the Luggage Compartment Double Doors? I'm happy to be advised otherwise.

If you click on the pic it comes up and you can enlarge it a bit I think?

Sorry Steve to interrupt your flow here

Phil 

Oooo Errr is that passenger getting out the wrong side of the train?

[Mallard60022]

13 minutes ago, Clive Mortimore said:

Oooo Errr is that passenger getting out the wrong side of the train?

Nah. Waving, not drowning!

P