Train spotting at Finsbury Square

[St Enodoc]

5 minutes ago, acg5324 said:

Here’s one I made earlier……SS and 4732 at Mill Rd Patcham.

https://zenfolio.page.link/CctPu

That's probably Les Kenward in the cab of the SUB.

[31A]

4 hours ago, St Enodoc said:

Anyway, better stop now as none of that has much to do with Finsbury Square!

It's alright, it's all interesting stuff!

 

You lot have got me wondering once again whether I could let LT trains run on here.  I've been attracted to some of these lovely pre-Grouping RTR locos that are coming out but having decided I probably couldn't justify one of TMC's G5s (might have been different if they hadn't ditched the East Anglian / Stratford version!) I then found myself looking enviously at the Rapido Met No. 1 ......

 

[Neil]

7 minutes ago, 31A said:

.... I then found myself looking enviously at the Rapido Met No. 1 ......

 

 

You need a connection from 'the square' to here .......

[Metropolitan H]

Bearing in mind that Finsbury Square is only 200 metres north of these pictures, I'm sure Rule 1 must apply.

 

02.28 hrs - 10th January 2013.

 

11.31hrs - 13th January 2013.

 

Regards

Chris H

 

Edited July 2, 2023 by Metropolitan H

[Metropolitan H]

4 hours ago, acg5324 said:

Here’s one I made earlier……SS and 4732 at Mill Rd Patcham.

https://zenfolio.page.link/CctPu

Thank you for that wonderful picture - I'll accept it as an early birthday card.

 

Regards

Chris H

[Chas Levin]

18 hours ago, 31A said:

Oh I see what you mean!  I thought you were saying, should it be Apple or Swindon Green?  Well I took the pictures all within a few minutes of each other.  The sky had darkened more by the time I took the third one; at that point the train was being dragged backwards into Holgate Sidings by the West Coast Railway diesel on the rear (hence Scotsman in in mid gear).

 

Scotsman has had so many alterations since preservation that there's not really any 'right' livery, but in some ways I think it would be nice if they'd restore her to the condition she was in when Alan Pegler first had her restored, with single chimney and LNER Green.

 

 

Great illustration of how the appearance to the eye of a colour changes with lighting conditions and viewing angle!

[mullie]

It's easy, build a layout underneath the one you................. have already!

 

I've always wanted to build a multi level urban layout with LT at the lowest level, though not sure it will ever happen.

 

Martyn

[31A]

4 hours ago, Neil said:

 

You need a connection from 'the square' to here .......

Well it is kinda based on that .... 🙂

[Flying Pig]

6 hours ago, 31A said:

then found myself looking enviously at the Rapido Met No. 1

 

 

That sounds like an excuse for a railtour via some obscure bit of un-juiced connecting track generally used to transfer Norfolk turkeys into the City.

 

Your Stratford needs should be catered for by the Accurascale Buckjumper.

[31A]

26 minutes ago, Flying Pig said:

 

Your Stratford needs should be catered for by the Accurascale Buckjumper.

 

Good point; I'm certainly looking forward to the Accura Buckjumper coming along!

[PhilJ W]

7 hours ago, Neil said:

You need a connection from 'the square' to here .......

There was a tunnel connecting the Metropolitan line to Liverpool Street station as well as the Hotel Curve at Kings Cross.

[31A]

The latest project is finished; its dragged its feet a bit!  The original plan was to make two of these coaches, one for Gilbert's Peterborough North layout and one for mine.  They're ex LNER 52ft Corridor Thirds; you may have seen its twin on Gilbert's thread a little while ago.  I ran out of some parts, and also motivation, but mine is now finally done.

 

 

 

To recap what I wrote on the Peterborough North thread, it's made using sides from Worsley Works, underframe, ends and roof from Comet and bogies and other parts from the MJT range.

 

The Worsley Works sides are in the same format as MJT sides, i.e. each lower panel is a separate piece which has to be soldered into place individually.  The sides matched up well with the Comet parts in length and height, and the holes for door handles were already etched and matched the MJT grab handles.  Slots were also etched for hinges, but the etched hinges provided were too fiddly for me to get on with, so I substituted brass strip soldered through the slots then trimmed to length.

 

The roof moulding seemed a bit on the narrow side, so I widened it with a strip of 10 thou plasticard on either side; unfortunately this has resulted in the edge of the roof (gutter) being a bit 'ragged'.

 

I made the step boards on the solebars from 3mm x 1mm brass angle which was soldered with its short edge on the solebar, against the lower flange of the solebar.  This makes for a strong and straight step, but needed a big (75 watt) soldering iron to get enough heat into the work!  The cast battery boxes that I had, were too long to fit the 'short' underframe so I made my own from plasticard.

 

I usually use Hornby wheels but I'm getting low on these and they're quite expensive now, so I used Wizard Wheels, unsurprisingly  from Wizard Models, which are well made and run true.

 

I was able to adapt a Hornby 61ft Gresley interior moulding, by removing one compartment.  It didn't even need painting!

 

Painting was Halford's etch primer (which is grey) followed by red oxide primer and finally Ford Burgundy Red.  Lining transfers are Fox and numbers from a Modelmasters sheet, 'cut and shut' to arrive at a suitable number.  As the droplight frames are separate items soldered to the inside, they had to be glazed individually with the fixed windows being separate panes in between the doors, which made for quite a lot of glazing work.  I made the lavatory windows white  by glueing white card inside.

 

So there we are, something a bit different and a useful 'layout' coach, being a bit shorter than most corridor coaches.  I shall have to think carefully about what train to put it in, as it shows up the inaccuracies of the Hornby Gresley corridor coaches which are in a lot  of my sets!

 

[Pacific231G]

On 02/07/2023 at 15:35, Neil said:

 

You need a connection from 'the square' to here .......

What a brilliant photo. For anyone building Minories that is the best image I've ever seen of a loco turnover spur with pit and water crane and small tower (enough for one loco to fill up very quickly ?) but no coal.

I also note the locking bar (if that's what it is) alongside the pit. Would this be to stop the trap point being closed while a loco is moving away after being opened for it or is it simply a detector? 

Edited August 2, 2023 by Pacific231G

[5BarVT]

7 hours ago, Pacific231G said:

I also note the locking bar (if that's what it is) alongside the pit. Would this be to stop the trap point being closed while a loco is moving away after being opened for it or is it simply a detector? 

Doesn’t look like a lock bar to me - they sit below flange level and rise up on longitudinal pivots.  That one is sitting at rail level on transverse pivots so will be depressed by flanges.  It will be to detect a loco over the pit.

Why, I don’t know!

Paul.

Edited August 2, 2023 by 5BarVT
Missing words

[31A]

3 minutes ago, 5BarVT said:

Doesn’t look like a lock bar to me - they sit below flange level and rise up on longitudinal pivots.  That one is sitting at rail level on transverse pivots so will be depressed by flanges.  It will be to detect a loco over the pit.

Why, I don’t know!

Paul.

 

May be an area where track circuits weren't used for some reason, e.g. because they couldn't be relied on because of contamination, or because there might be interference from the electrified rails?  Just a guess....

 

[jimwal]

It is a fouling bar.

 

It sits just below the running rail and is linked with the points. Operating the points will lift the fouling bar on it's pivots to the right, the bar to the right being a counterbalance. 

Hence if a loco is over the pit, it will prevent the fouling bar being moved.

[31A]

12 hours ago, 5BarVT said:

Doesn’t look like a lock bar to me - they sit below flange level and rise up on longitudinal pivots.  That one is sitting at rail level on transverse pivots so will be depressed by flanges.  It will be to detect a loco over the pit.

Why, I don’t know!

Paul.

 

10 hours ago, jimwal said:

It is a fouling bar.

 

It sits just below the running rail and is linked with the points. Operating the points will lift the fouling bar on it's pivots to the right, the bar to the right being a counterbalance. 

Hence if a loco is over the pit, it will prevent the fouling bar being moved.

 

Surely if the purpose of the bar was to lock the points, as the bar runs the whole length of the siding and a loco can't stand clear of it, the presence of a loco in the siding would prevent the trap points (and presumably also the points in the running line) from being restored to normal, the loco having just entered the siding from the running line, and the trap points would then not fulfil their purpose?  So I'd suggest it is there to detect that a loco is in the siding, but not to lock the points, as Paul said.

[Pacific231G]

9 hours ago, 31A said:

 

 

Surely if the purpose of the bar was to lock the points, as the bar runs the whole length of the siding and a loco can't stand clear of it, the presence of a loco in the siding would prevent the trap points (and presumably also the points in the running line) from being restored to normal, the loco having just entered the siding from the running line, and the trap points would then not fulfil their purpose?  So I'd suggest it is there to detect that a loco is in the siding, but not to lock the points, as Paul said.

I was hoping someone would know but I suspect it's a conditional fouling bar. When a loco enters the spur, the trap point is in its normal configuration so would derail the loco if for some reason it ran back. However, when the trap point is cleared to release the loco the depressed bar locks it and it can't then be restored until the loco has cleared it. Note how close the end of the bar is to the tongue of the trap switch. The last wheel leaving the bar would already have its flange over the switch which couldn't then move until the loco was clear.

if it was simply a detector it wouldn't need to be right up against the trap switch.

That's my theory and someone may know better.

Edited August 3, 2023 by Pacific231G
Clearer explanation

[Mallard60022]

8 hours ago, 31A said:

 

 

Surely if the purpose of the bar was to lock the points, as the bar runs the whole length of the siding and a loco can't stand clear of it, the presence of a loco in the siding would prevent the trap points (and presumably also the points in the running line) from being restored to normal, the loco having just entered the siding from the running line, and the trap points would then not fulfil their purpose?  So I'd suggest it is there to detect that a loco is in the siding, but not to lock the points, as Paul said.

 

8 hours ago, 31A said:

 

 

Surely if the purpose of the bar was to lock the points, as the bar runs the whole length of the siding and a loco can't stand clear of it, the presence of a loco in the siding would prevent the trap points (and presumably also the points in the running line) from being restored to normal, the loco having just entered the siding from the running line, and the trap points would then not fulfil their purpose?  So I'd suggest it is there to detect that a loco is in the siding, but not to lock the points, as Paul said.

 

8 hours ago, 31A said:

 

 

Surely if the purpose of the bar was to lock the points, as the bar runs the whole length of the siding and a loco can't stand clear of it, the presence of a loco in the siding would prevent the trap points (and presumably also the points in the running line) from being restored to normal, the loco having just entered the siding from the running line, and the trap points would then not fulfil their purpose?  So I'd suggest it is there to detect that a loco is in the siding, but not to lock the points, as Paul said.

 

8 hours ago, 31A said:

 

 

Surely if the purpose of the bar was to lock the points, as the bar runs the whole length of the siding and a loco can't stand clear of it, the presence of a loco in the siding would prevent the trap points (and presumably also the points in the running line) from being restored to normal, the loco having just entered the siding from the running line, and the trap points would then not fulfil their purpose?  So I'd suggest it is there to detect that a loco is in the siding, but not to lock the points, as Paul said.

If it's of any use there was, at Seaton Junction where there were sighting issues, as there was only a West Box, and all sorts of stuff in the way looking East, something like this (pressure bar?) and it was to alert the Bobby to the presence of something on the Down Main Platform Loop IIRC? There may have been similar on the Up loop, but I have no idea where I saw the pic and if there was such a thing there. I also think that Track Circuiting may have done away with that. In a Shed setting then Circuits would have not been very reliable due to the muck?

Phil

[Mallard60022]

NO idea why there are 4 quotes! Sorry.

[5BarVT]

1 hour ago, Pacific231G said:

I was hoping someone would know but I suspect it's a conditional fouling bar. When a loco enters the spur, the trap point is in its normal configuration so would derail the loco if for some reason it ran back. However, when the trap point is cleared to release the loco the depressed bar locks it and it can't then be restored until the loco has cleared it. Note how close the end of the bar is to the tongue of the trap switch. The last wheel leaving the bar would already have its flange over the switch which couldn't then move until the loco was clear.

if it was simply a detector it wouldn't need to be right up against the trap switch.

That's my theory and someone may know better.

Now that’s an interesting explanation - I rather like it.

Sadly, I don’t think it fits here.  Over on Harsig’s Metropolitan Line page (https://www.harsig.org/Metropolitan.php) are signalling diagrams for 1933 and 1958.  In each case, the trap is worked by the same lever as the running end so on entering the trap will be reversed as there is nothing to distinguish whether it’s an inward or outward movement.  But the spur occupancy is not indicated either, so why have the depression bar! ??

Interestingly by 1962 the relaid engine spurs are track circuited - would it have been restricted to diesel traction by then?

Paul.

[jimwal]

On 02/08/2023 at 22:42, jimwal said:

It is a fouling bar.

 

It sits just below the running rail and is linked with the points. Operating the points will lift the fouling bar on it's pivots to the right, the bar to the right being a counterbalance. 

Hence if a loco is over the pit, it will prevent the fouling bar being moved.

Apologies for confusing things, it is not a fouling bar.

 

It is a treadle. 

Exactly as described by Paul here:

On 02/08/2023 at 20:24, 5BarVT said:

Doesn’t look like a lock bar to me - they sit below flange level and rise up on longitudinal pivots.  That one is sitting at rail level on transverse pivots so will be depressed by flanges.  It will be to detect a loco over the pit.

Why, I don’t know!

Paul.

The reason: to show the signalman a loco is over the pit?, presumeably he can't see it.

 

 

On 02/08/2023 at 20:30, 31A said:

 

May be an area where track circuits weren't used for some reason, e.g. because they couldn't be relied on because of contamination, or because there might be interference from the electrified rails?  Just a guess....

 

 

With the pit provided for ash clearance presumeably, this may be the reason for retaining the treadle.

 

[Mallard60022]

11 hours ago, jimwal said:

Apologies for confusing things, it is not a fouling bar.

It is a treadle. 

Exactly as described by Paul here:

The reason: to show the signalman a loco is over the pit?, presumeably he can't see it.

With the pit provided for ash clearance presumeably, this may be the reason for retaining the treadle.

I am certain this is the explanation; shows the presence of 'something', out of site.

Phil

[Pacific231G]

16 hours ago, 5BarVT said:

Now that’s an interesting explanation - I rather like it.

Sadly, I don’t think it fits here.  Over on Harsig’s Metropolitan Line page (https://www.harsig.org/Metropolitan.php) are signalling diagrams for 1933 and 1958.  In each case, the trap is worked by the same lever as the running end so on entering the trap will be reversed as there is nothing to distinguish whether it’s an inward or outward movement.  But the spur occupancy is not indicated either, so why have the depression bar! ??

Interestingly by 1962 the relaid engine spurs are track circuited - would it have been restricted to diesel traction by then?

Paul.

Oh well, it was a nice theory! I could see that it was the same lever in the 1958 plan (what an excellent find Harsig is) though not enough detail to make out lever numbers for 1933. What was present in 1958 was probably the same though and I can't imagine it having been altered between the photograph and 1958. I wonder if the "thing"  was linked into the interlocking or just came up as a detection, we'd probably need the interlocking table to know that. BTW does anyone know what a grey track means on Harsig's diagrams. Not track circuited or just another colour?  

What is interesting is how much the UndergrounD was interlinked with the national network in a way that is very unusual today except where they share a route. No through trains from Ealing Broadway to Southend any more!  

 

Update: I've just found this photo from c1905 on disused stations and something looking perhaps similar can be seen on the platform road. 

http://www.disused-stations.org.uk/m/moorgate/moorgate(c1905alsop)old1.jpg

 

I also discovered from that site that Gresley Quad-Arts (associated in my mind with GNR suburban tanks)  survived long enough to be diesel hauled on the widened lines. I'm sure though that everyone else here knew that already! 

Edited August 4, 2023 by Pacific231G
new information

[St Enodoc]

3 minutes ago, Pacific231G said:

what an excellent find Harsig is

Absolutely! I now have pretty well all the information I need should I ever start my might-but-probably-never-will project to build Finchley Central in about 1962.