Colin parks Posted April 27, 2014 Share Posted April 27, 2014 A little more progress - IMG_0570.JPG Vents and first set of door hinges added IMG_0572.JPG IMG_0573.JPG Access steps added to body ends Hi Ron, I am really impressed by the speed and quality of workmanship of this build. Looking at the most recent photo, it seems clearer to me as to how the coach side will locate onto the carcass/ends. Is it right to say that the ends are slightly wider than the inner sides, with the glazing strip fitting in between the ends? Forgive me for asking, but I am just trying to figure out how the outer sides fit to the ends. All the best, Colin Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ralph R Posted April 27, 2014 Share Posted April 27, 2014 Ron, I will get the book out tomorrow from the club - I am sure it will be there, there are not many people interested in Vol 3! Ralph Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stanley Melrose Posted April 27, 2014 Share Posted April 27, 2014 If I finish decorating for a bit (I've stopped for a cup of tea and to give Chelsea a cheer!) later on today, I'll scan them and send copies to you, Ron. Stan Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Heggs Posted April 27, 2014 Author Share Posted April 27, 2014 Hi Ron, I am really impressed by the speed and quality of workmanship of this build. Looking at the most recent photo, it seems clearer to me as to how the coach side will locate onto the carcass/ends. Is it right to say that the ends are slightly wider than the inner sides, with the glazing strip fitting in between the ends? Forgive me for asking, but I am just trying to figure out how the outer sides fit to the ends. All the best, Colin Hi, Colin The inner layer and the glazing locating strips are recessed, so that the outer layer when fixed overhangs the body ends by 25 thou (approx. scale 50mm), as the prototype (i.e. no flush corner joints) Cheers Ron Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horsetan Posted April 27, 2014 Share Posted April 27, 2014 Hi Ron,I am really impressed by the speed and quality of workmanship of this build...... It's the speed more than anything that is frightening. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grovenor Posted April 27, 2014 Share Posted April 27, 2014 so that the outer layer when fixed overhangs the body ends by 25 thou (approx. scale 50mm), as the prototype (i.e. no flush corner joints) Well, that's a new one on me, I've never noticed any LMS coach with the sides projecting 50mm past the ends, as well as the more usual ex LMS stock I used to ride those MSJ&A electrics to visit the MMRS clubroom at Old Trafford, and also spent a few days work experience in Altrincham car shed. Where does this idea come from? Most likely Coachman would have chapter and verse. Keith. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Heggs Posted April 28, 2014 Author Share Posted April 28, 2014 Checking the coach dimensions given by Essery & Jenkinson, there appears to be some discrepancies There are three coaches – Motor coach – Overall body length 58’ 1” Comprising 6 third class compartments each 5’ 111/32” cl-cl of partitions, the end compartment being dimensioned cl to inner face of end body panel The drivers compartment is dimensioned 3’ 729/32” cl of partition to outer face of end body panel The electrical equipment compartment is dimensioned 7’ 10” cl-cl of partitions The luggage & guards compartment is dimensioned 10’ 27/16” cl-cl of partitions This gives a total length of 57’ 217/32”, a difference of 1015/32” less the thickness of the body end panel Driver Trailer Coach – Overall length 58’ 1” Comprising 9 third class compartments each 5’ 111/32” cl-cl of partitions, the end compartment being dimensioned cl to inner face of end body panel The drivers compartment is dimensioned 3’ 55/16” cl of partition to inner face of end body panel A total length of 56’ 819/32”, a difference of 1’ 413/32” less the thicknesses of the two body end panels Trailer Coach - Overall length 58’ 1” Comprising 4 third class compartments each 5’ 111/32” cl-cl of partitions, the two end compartments being dimensioned cl to inner face of end body panel 5 first class compartments each 6’ 71/2” cl-cl of partitions A total length of 56’ 95/8”, a difference of 1’ 33/8” less the thicknesses of the two body end panels If we assume that the body end panels are say 6” thick, then there are still differences – Motor Coach 1015/32” – 6” = 415/32” Driver Trailer Coach 1’ 413/32” – 1’ = 413/32” Trailer Coach 1’ 33/8” – 1’ = 33/8” No matter what thickness the body end panels are, dimensional inconsistencies remain i.e. the actual body length of 58' 1" is longer than the dimensions shown on the drawings Only the two Trailer coaches remain in preservation undergoing refurbishment. Is it possible that a dimensional review would go some way to answer the above? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Heggs Posted April 28, 2014 Author Share Posted April 28, 2014 Well, that's a new one on me, I've never noticed any LMS coach with the sides projecting 50mm past the ends, as well as the more usual ex LMS stock I used to ride those MSJ&A electrics to visit the MMRS clubroom at Old Trafford, and also spent a few days work experience in Altrincham car shed. Where does this idea come from? Most likely Coachman would have chapter and verse. Keith. Hi, Keith The above post outlines some dimensional inconsistencies Having drawn and cut the basic bodies to the dimensions of the individual compartments, and cut the outer layer to a scale 58' 1" there remained an overhang of approx. 25thou at each end. The photos are not revealing enough to show whether an overhang of any dimension existed If the outer layers are indeed flush with the body ends then a simple trimming exercise should correct the construction, albeit the body will no longer be a scale 58' 1" A thought has just occurred to me that the roof overhangs the body ends, and is this where the body length dimension is taken from Cheers Ron Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
billbedford Posted April 28, 2014 Share Posted April 28, 2014 Compartment sizes on diagrams invariably give the internal dimensions of the compartment. Compare diagram 2124 on page 43 of vol 111 with diagram 1703 on page 45. The discrepancy in length you have found is almost certainly the thickness of the partitions. Trailer Coach: Stated length: 58'1" Length of compartments: 56' 9 5/8" Difference: 1' 3 3/8" The difference in length is likely to be made up of eight partitions of 1 1/8" and two ends of 3 3/16" or something similar. The partitions either side of the electrical equipment compartment are drawn about the same thickness as the ends so this needs to be taken into account when drawing this coach. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Heggs Posted April 28, 2014 Author Share Posted April 28, 2014 Compartment sizes on diagrams invariably give the internal dimensions of the compartment. Compare diagram 2124 on page 43 of vol 111 with diagram 1703 on page 45. The discrepancy in length you have found is almost certainly the thickness of the partitions. Trailer Coach: Stated length: 58'1" Length of compartments: 56' 9 5/8" Difference: 1' 3 3/8" The difference in length is likely to be made up of eight partitions of 1 1/8" and two ends of 3 3/16" or something similar. The partitions either side of the electrical equipment compartment are drawn about the same thickness as the ends so this needs to be taken into account when drawing this coach. Hi, Bill Thanks for your observations Would compartment partitions be that slim? Have had a close look at some pictures of one of the coaches undergoing refurb. with the steel panelling removed It would appear that the end frames are only 1 1/2" thick with panelling of say 3/8". That would mean the original partitions would have been almost 1 1/2" thick including panelling to both sides. The luggage racks must have been bolted through, and well tied in at the outer ends. I assume additional strength would have been attained by the seats and seat backs supporting a good percentage of the partition height Cheers Ron Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ozzyo Posted April 28, 2014 Share Posted April 28, 2014 Hello Ron the dimension on the drawings will have been for the inside of the compartments (not the centre to centre dimensions), The ends of the coach would have been about the same as the sides (approx 4 1/2") with an approx. thickness between comp. at 2" or less. The body only over hangs the under-frame by 1/2" at each end. OzzyO. PS. if you want you can get the G/A drawing from the NRM for these coaches. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ralph R Posted April 28, 2014 Share Posted April 28, 2014 Hi Ron, I don't ever remember the ends being inset on these coaches. The extra one inch was for the coach ends to sit over the headstocks as OzzyO says. I have researched both the LMS 57ft and LMS 60ft underframes and I have copies of some of the York drawings together with drawings of some of the coach bodies and this is exactly what seems to have happened. None of the manufacturers of etched sides that I have used produce sides that are 57ft 1ins long or 60ft 1ins long, they all go for 57ft or 60ft but then what is the odd inch to them? It only comes down to 0.33mm and that can easily be lost in the etching process. Ralph Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Heggs Posted April 28, 2014 Author Share Posted April 28, 2014 Thanks Keith, Bill, OzzyO and Ralph for all your info and input Flush ends it will be, with maybe a sliver over the headstocks (thickness of the paint) Cheers Ron Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Heggs Posted April 28, 2014 Author Share Posted April 28, 2014 Sides - trimmed to length with the hinges and vents fitted - next fit the narrow beading over the two horizontal panel joints between the adjacent compartment windows, and the end windows and ends Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stanley Melrose Posted April 28, 2014 Share Posted April 28, 2014 Hi Ron, I guess your comment "Checking the coach dimensions given by Essery & Jenkinson, there appears to be some discrepancies" means you received the scans I sent to you! Cheers, Stan Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Heggs Posted April 28, 2014 Author Share Posted April 28, 2014 Hi Ron, I guess your comment "Checking the coach dimensions given by Essery & Jenkinson, there appears to be some discrepancies" means you received the scans I sent to you! Cheers, Stan Hi, Stan Thanks. They certainly add more information to the story. Happily, the discrepancy issue has been resolved I have been looking at the list of drawings held at the NRM - 104 listed for the 1930/1931 stock - that's ok if you want to build another set Cheers Ron Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Heggs Posted April 28, 2014 Author Share Posted April 28, 2014 10 thou x 10 thou beading fitted - - drill holes for T door handles and Grab handles, before a visit to the 'paint shop' Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stanley Melrose Posted April 28, 2014 Share Posted April 28, 2014 Hi Ron, Glad the scans were of use. I went to the NRM and searched their archives so now have the NRM drawings for the Liverpool - Southport - Ormskirk 1927 stock and am following your efforts with great interest! Stan Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Heggs Posted April 28, 2014 Author Share Posted April 28, 2014 Hi Ron, Glad the scans were of use. I went to the NRM and searched their archives so now have the NRM drawings for the Liverpool - Southport - Ormskirk 1927 stock and am following your efforts with great interest! Stan Hi, Stan Will you be going for etched components, etc. or some other build method/materials ? Styrene was my choice for a first attempt at building rolling stock - it is relatively cheap, and I am familiar with its use and limitations - any problems with this approach, and it has only cost me time, but I will have learnt a great deal, especially from others here on the forum with greater knowledge and experience of building carriages Cheers Ron Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
N15class Posted April 28, 2014 Share Posted April 28, 2014 Will you be adding door bumpers? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Heggs Posted April 28, 2014 Author Share Posted April 28, 2014 Will you be adding door bumpers? Hi, Peter Yes. They will be fixed after painting the sides to both the doors and body panels. Cut from black styrene Cheers Ron Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stanley Melrose Posted April 28, 2014 Share Posted April 28, 2014 Ron, PM sent to you a moment ago. Cheers, Stan Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Heggs Posted April 29, 2014 Author Share Posted April 29, 2014 The trailer coach sides have been drilled to accept T door handles and body grab handles, and received two coats of paint - drying overnight - pictures tomorrow Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin parks Posted April 30, 2014 Share Posted April 30, 2014 The trailer coach sides have been drilled to accept T door handles and body grab handles, and received two coats of paint - drying overnight - pictures tomorrow Hi Ron, Looking at the most recent photo of the sides, I was going to ask how you were intending to model the door drop light frames. Did you attach them to the sides before painting or are they going on the glazing layer? All the best, Colin Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Heggs Posted April 30, 2014 Author Share Posted April 30, 2014 Hi Ron, Looking at the most recent photo of the sides, I was going to ask how you were intending to model the door drop light frames. Did you attach them to the sides before painting or are they going on the glazing layer? All the best, Colin Hi, Colin I am cutting masks for the droplights in the doors in 5 thou which will be fixed the rear of the outer sides before fixing over the glazing/inner layer. This may mean some judicious placing and alignment of the glazing Cheers Ron Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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