Bachmann announce 0-6-2T L&NWR Webb Coal Tank

[adb968008]

Thanks for posting the pictures.

Is this the livery the coal tank is in now?

The pictures from the 1980s show it lined out.

Thanks

Correct, it is currently as modelled.

I'm holding out buying this one, in hope the next collectors club release is the lined one as per 1980's...

Edited April 15, 2017 by adb968008

[Trog]

As to double heading on the LNWR...

 

Happened quite a lot in early LMS days I believe when an ex LNWR express train was required to push one of the new Midland inspired locos up a gradient.

[LMS2968]

Wasn't the Crab based on a Caledonian design with one of Hughes's low pressure boilers and cylinders to match?

When a mixed traffic 2-6-0 was first mooted in 1923 it was found that the Caley was well on its way to developing such a loco. It was looked at but rejected; however good it might or might not have proven, it was both too heavy and outside the loading gauge for most of the previous companies' routes. The Crab was a brand new design.

[Fenway Park]

The book on the Coal Tanks is available from the Bahamas Locomotive Society @ £19 plus p & p. I got mine for £25 iincl p & p.

Excellent service and well recommended.

Also available from the Ingrow Museum.

[Garry D100]

Correct, it is currently as modelled.

I'm holding out buying this one, in hope the next collectors club release is the lined one as per 1980's...

Thanks very much.

Must admit, i had the same thought regarding a collectors club model. :-)

[Guest Midland Mole]

Correct, it is currently as modelled.

I'm holding out buying this one, in hope the next collectors club release is the lined one as per 1980's...

 

To be honest I was mulling doing the same thing, as I prefer the lined livery. But I'm still happy with the choice I made.

I hope they do a lined one at some point.

Alex

[PaulRhB]

I'm hoping they do the lined version to complement this one as two will look rather smart

[Guest Midland Mole]

 

Why? Well why not!

Alex

[Steamport Southport]

I'm trying not to buy one as I've already got a Watford Tank, 4'6" 2-4-2T and a L&YR 2-4-2T.

 

I wonder how long I'll last.

 

 

 

 

Jason

[Guest Midland Mole]

Resistance is futile....

Alex of Nine

[Compound2632]

 

Why? Well why not!

Alex

 

Well, that's hardly like-for-like - Deeley-fied Compound v. George V would be more reasonable. My post that started off this little round of comment on Midland engines was rather specifically comparing Johnson's engines with Webb's - i.e. up to 1903, before the heyday of double-heading on either line, brought on by increasing passenger train weight per passenger with the proliferation of corridor carriages and dining cars.

 

Size: the characteristic Webb 0-6-0 / 2-4-0 wheelbase was 7'3" + 8'3" as against 8'0" + 8'6" on the Midland - both inherited from their predecessors, Ramsbottom and Kirtley.

 

More elegant: well, that's in the eye of the beholder. I'll admit that Webb's engines have a certain appeal - the Teutonics especially for me - but not the harmonious artistry of a slim-boilered Johnson 4-4-0. The Belpaires and the Smith-Johnson compounds in their original form moved on to a new plane of big-engine elegance where the Precursors were just big Jumbos.

 

Better engineered: the dubious features of Webb's engines in general have been overshadowed by the arguments surrounding the compounds - Whale, who as running superintendent knew all about these had had his work cut out to sort them out. Johnson was at the fore-front of technical development as an early adopter of piston valves and, of course, collaborating with his friend W M Smith to produce an effective compound locomotive.

[coachmann]

Railway books aimed at the lineside observer are full of remarks about elegance, harmonious artistry and the like when it comes to steam locomotives, but I judge them on their metalwork. Remove the exotic liveries and some classes of loco look dire. Stroudleys locos for instance. Johnson's slim boiler 4-4-0s and 2-4-0s could barely be described as elegant in lined black or less. Even the Compounds never looked right once their red garb had been removed and who would look twice at a Robinson GCR passenger engine or Caley Cardean or Dunalastair once black had replaced green or blue. Yay, and even GWR locos never looked right in anything other than their traditional dark green. Yet the basic simplicity of LNWR engines looked right even in bare metal and they never had to rely on exotic liveries to liven them up.

Edited April 15, 2017 by coachmann

[johnd]

Railway books aimed at the lineside observer are full of remarks about elegance, harmonious artistry and the like when it comes to steam locomotives, but I judge them on their metalwork. Remove the exotic liveries and some classes of loco look dire. Stroudleys locos for instance. Johnson's slim boiler 4-4-0s and 2-4-0s could barely be described as elegant in lined black or less. Even the Compounds never looked right once their red garb had been removed and who would look twice at a Robinson GCR passenger engine or Caley Cardean or Dunalastair once black had replaced green or blue. Yay, and even GWR locos never looked right in anything other than their traditional dark green. Yet the basic simplicity of LNWR engines looked right even in bare metal and they never had to rely on exotic liveries to liven them up.

Well said that man

[Jol Wilkinson]

It is important to separate Webb's compound designs from his "simple" locos. These were intended to be simple to build, operate and maintain - to fit in with the demands of the Board of Directors who sought to maximize shareholder's dividends. They met those requirements.

 

It was that same demand for economy that made Webb concentrate on "experimenting" with compounding and although many of his designs were far from perfect, some, like the Teutonics performed well. In those pre social media days however, we are reliant on the published views of a few observers of the period, including several who strongly disagreed with Webb's approach to loco design. As a result many of today's "experts" don't have a balanced view of  his achievements, further distorted by the benefit of hindsight and by a desire to prove that their favorite railway/CME did a better job, etc.

 

Most loco designs were based on function rather than aesthetic beauty, which is why "expensive" liveries came about,  to tart up otherwise "plain" machines as part of the railways PR activities. There is nothing especially "beautiful" about most Victorian and Edwardian loco designs, but we look at them through rose tinted lenses, highly polished by nostalgia.

[LMS2968]

Francis Webb made some powerful enemies during his lifetime, but powerful or not, they wouldn't confront him while he was at Crewe. After he resigned through illness, it was a different matter. Two of these men were George Whale (the replacement CME) and Frederick Harrison, General Manager. The main problem with FWW's engines was that they were too small (he wasn't alone here) to the extent that they were simply not up to traffic demands following the huge leap in train weights around the turn of the century. Whale, at that time Traffic Superintendent, bore the brunt of the problem so had no great respect for him. Harrison, on his appointment, visited all department heads to tell them that in future they would report to him and not the Board. His visit to Crewe to inform FWW was, apparently, very short and he left in something of a hurry. He did not return to Crewe while FWW was in position, but was there a few weeks after Whale took over, this time more successfully.

 

These two men had very large axes to grind, and grind them they did. FWW died within a few years of his retirement, leaving no-one to tell the story from his side.

[MikeParkin65]

Saw this in Monkbar model shop today and soooo tempted. Lovely little model and pound for pound better value than the Stanier Mogul imho - it's got a great finesse to it. Going to York show tomorrow so it's a choice between a Coal Tank or a locoman chip for the Q6 (can you see how far the Coal Tank is from 'fitting' with my collection? Lol

[Compound2632]

Railway books aimed at the lineside observer are full of remarks about elegance, harmonious artistry and the like when it comes to steam locomotives, but I judge them on their metalwork. Remove the exotic liveries and some classes of loco look dire. Stroudleys locos for instance. Johnson's slim boiler 4-4-0s and 2-4-0s could barely be described as elegant in lined black or less. Even the Compounds never looked right once their red garb had been removed and who would look twice at a Robinson GCR passenger engine or Caley Cardean or Dunalastair once black had replaced green or blue. Yay, and even GWR locos never looked right in anything other than their traditional dark green. Yet the basic simplicity of LNWR engines looked right even in bare metal and they never had to rely on exotic liveries to liven them up.

 

Elegance is of course in the eye of the beholder. The outlines and proportions of Johnson's engines seem to me to be particularly harmonious; as far as I'm aware there's no evidence that they were unsatisfactory for the work they were designed to do. What I will say in favour of Crewe is that I have yet to see a photo of any locomotive in LNWR lined livery (call it BR mixed traffic livery if you will) where that livery looked out of place.

[Penlan]

Has anybody looked at the prospects of changing the gauge to EM or P4/S4 yet?

Edited April 15, 2017 by Penlan

[Jol Wilkinson]

I think that will depend on Colin Seymour of AGW producing a wheel conversion set. First thing will be to know what axles sizes Bachmann used.

[SDJR7F88]

A review of the eagerly anticipated Bachmann Webb Coal Tank, as preserved on the Keighley & Worth Valley Railway, in smart L&NWR Plain Black. 
Constructed by the London & North Western Railway at Crewe Works, 300 Webb Coal Tanks were built between 1881 and 1897, originally designed for working heavy mineral trains. 
All member of the class were later modified, with the addition of vacuum brakes and heating equipment, for mixed traffic work, working passenger, as well as goods trains.
All, but 6 locomotives passed into LMS ownership in 1923, with further withdrawal in the following years. 64 survived into British Railways ownership during Nationalization in 1948, with the final member of the class being withdrawn in 1958.
This model depicts the sole surviving member of the class, No. 1054, in LNWR plain black, as currently preserved on the Keighley & Worth Valley Railway.
Bachmann have done an superb job in capturing these elegant locomotives in model form. The model though out, features a high level of detail, including fully detailed cab interior, as well as a weighty die-cast construction, plus smooth and powerful running straight from the box. It really is a must for any Pre-Grouping or Preserved Era modeller!
Hope you enjoy

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3CjV8FlrtKI

[Dick Turpin]

 I have yet to see a photo of any locomotive in LNWR lined livery (call it BR mixed traffic livery if you will) where that livery looked out of place.

 

Indeed, LNER B16s and K3s never looked better!

[SDJR7F88]

Here's a few still. Will upload some more when I get a few more close up's.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3CjV8FlrtKI

[bertiedog]

I wonder if RTR will ever get around to Webb Compounds, an interesting area of design in locos, fine if the driver followed the rules but a disaster if procedures were not followed, with the low pressure middle cylinder left set in reverse whilst the HP cylinders tried to move the train forward. If the correct instructions were followed to the letter they worked but mistakes could lead to dismissal. too many extra taps to remember to set on the compound cylinder, with an air bleed, steam bypass feed and drain cocks get in the right order to allow the slip eccentric gear to reset itself as the loco started.

Forget the air bleed and trying to start without waiting as it rolled forward to close it and the front wheels could run in reverse. Made worst by a bypass that fed steam direct to the compound compound cylinder and if that was used there was spectacular reverse wheel spin! It did not happen often apparently and if it happened in front of senior staff it was a sacking offence.

Correctly sequenced the locos could pull very well on starts, and were said to be smooth running due to lack of side rods. Webb came in for a lot of flack on the design but it worked in experienced hands.

Dreadnought anybody?

 

Stephen.

[Trog]

 

Most loco designs were based on function rather than aesthetic beauty, which is why "expensive" liveries came about,  to tart up otherwise "plain" machines as part of the railways PR activities. There is nothing especially "beautiful" about most Victorian and Edwardian loco designs, but we look at them through rose tinted lenses, highly polished by nostalgia.

 

Not sure that is wholly true British locos tend to be very tidy in outline compared to for example American locos that often seen to have most of the stock of the local plumbers merchant attached all over them. Presumably external plumbing is easier to maintain and hence functional, where as clean external lines are aesthetic at the price of harder to maintain plumbing.

[Budgie]

Not sure that is wholly true British locos tend to be very tidy in outline compared to for example American locos that often seen to have most of the stock of the local plumbers merchant attached all over them. Presumably external plumbing is easier to maintain and hence functional, where as clean external lines are aesthetic at the price of harder to maintain plumbing.

A fair bit of that external plumbing on American locos is the pipes from the sandboxes, which are domes on top of the boiler. It seems to me much better to have one sandbox for eight wheels on top of the loco, rather than eight sandboxes at footplate level.