Heljan GWR 47xx Night Owl

[7007GreatWestern]

 

 

Almost unlimited in the worst cases...

 

 

Ok. Point made! ;-)

 

Andy.

[robmcg]

Didn't I say something about random events?

 

the second stay bar ...

 

 

Now I shall have a more-or-less acceptable model.

 

the structure of the box was such that this was glued in place... the box was actually quite firmly glued together,    shipping containers clearly have great capacity for cargo enhancement...modification, as to stay bars looking for dark crevices!

 

cheers   I shall post my usual smoke and steam enhanced pics sometime soon 

 

 

I am more than ever convinced that the damage is from repeated impact and vibration.

Edited April 14, 2018 by robmcg

[Castle]

Hi Rob,

 

Funnily enough, that’s more or less where my missing stay was found...

 

All the best,

 

Castle

[Pteremy]

Sub standard product is sub standard product. It should be for the the manufacturer to identify where in the design-manufacturing-supply chain the problems are arising, and to provide a remedy. This ought to be a red line for this community. 

[JimC]

It should be for the the manufacturer to identify where in the design-manufacturing-supply chain the problems are arising, and to provide a remedy. 

 

I should think the manufacturers are tearing their hair out about this. Significant numbers of returns are a financial disaster, never mind the reputational damage. But it is possible for things to happen that are beyond what any manufacturer could plan for. I'm sure we can all think of scenarios.

[The Stationmaster]

I recall some years ago a Hornby model was delayed reaching the market 'because it had failed the drop test'.  Now that might just have been an SKism to take the heat off the comments about delay but more than equally it sounds a very good idea to test you packaging of a model and make sure that it will survive ordinary transit shocks.  I haven't seen the packaging of a 47XX so haven't got a clue if it's what we've become used to from Hornby and Bachmann, and some others, where the packaging is designed to accept what one might regard as normal transit handling - and that includes postal/courier delivery to the end customer let alone travelling in a groupage container over a poor road surface, and so on.

 

Rob's model is also perhaps indicative a of a weak point in the Heljan design of footplate which seemingly snapped almost where one might expect it to snap - and that could be associated with inadequate packaging as well.  There is clearly a difficulty getting the front footplate to stay level on GWR models - Heljan are not the only sufferers of that problem - and it needs some clever design to get round the weakness in that area plus the tendency for parts not to sit level.  And let's not forget that for whatever reason the Heljan 47XX was delayed some months due to various issues identified as the model was originally about to come to production - was the front footplate anything to do with that possibly?  We'll never know the answers but clearly for damage like Rob has reported to occur something has been amiss somewhere.

[robmcg]

Well I now have two 47XXs  and have learned a bit about modelling.

 

Still haven't got those stay bars right in but everything else (barring sundry small pipes) is as near as I will get it today at least.

 

Both run very well on my short test track.

 

 

 

edit; blackened axle centres in top photo otherwise un-fiddled.

 

edit2; I thought, 'what have I got to lose?' when looking at the top smokebox lamp bracket on 4706, all bent downwards, and with my fingernail gently bent it back into shape, sometimes there is justice.  I think there is something odd about the 'set' of the pony wheel housing though... it has the factory pivot pin and is 'original' but I wouldn't want to bend it after the fracture of 4704's pony truck assembly. Maybe the axle has half-fallen out?

Edited April 15, 2018 by robmcg

[robmcg]

Not a bad engine, really, even if from Swindon.

 

Showing little-known and even less-recorded Swindon experimental modification to front frame stay bars 41-2211A-1957.

 

 

edited pic, will remove if necessary.

Edited April 15, 2018 by robmcg

[Castle]

Hi Mike,

 

With regard to the packaging - if anything, I would say that it is as, if not more, substantial that either the standard red or blue boxes. Perhaps it is not quite the right shape and therefore putting undue strain on the model? It’s difficult for me to say as mine was broken before I removed it from the packaging.

 

Cheers,

 

Castle

Edited April 15, 2018 by Castle

[coachmann]

Rob's model is also perhaps indicative a of a weak point in the Heljan design of footplate which seemingly snapped almost where one might expect it to snap - and that could be associated with inadequate packaging as well.  There is clearly a difficulty getting the front footplate to stay level on GWR models - Heljan are not the only sufferers of that problem - and it needs some clever design to get round the weakness in that area plus the tendency for parts not to sit level.  

The obvious answer (to me) is a metal footplate. It also has the advantage of putting weight low down. One model with such a footplate is the Oxford Rail Dean Goods.

[Ian Hargrave]

I find it very hard to believe that the kind of damage seen on models like Rob's would have been present when the model left the factory. For it to have done so there would have to be no Quality Assurance at the factory whatsoever. So if that's the case you have to wonder where in the distribution chain it's happening. On the wagon from the factory to the docks in China? On the ship from China? How much shock is an ocean going container ship really subject to?

 

My own guess (and I admit it is only a guess) is that much of this damage is happening once the goods are in the hands of couriers in the UK. Having recently worked for a well known UK national parcels company I've seen the casual way packages are just thrown around, dropped and left at the bottom of huge piles of other parcels. The emphasis in these companies is using cheap, agency, mainly EU labour to 'tip' artic trailers as fast as possible in order to turn the wagons around ASAP. It takes two blokes about 1 1/2 to 2 1/2 hours to tip a 45ft long, 9ft wide trailer that is loaded from floor to ceiling (about 9ft) solidly with parcels. Just how much care and attention do you think is lavished on each particular parcel?

 

Notwithstanding that, the manufacturers should be designing packaging that can withstand significant shock, impact and load. I wonder if any of them actually test the packaging by sending their products out onto real world distribution networks to establish whether it's fit for purpose?

 

One final point. My 47xx is superb, but how much of that is down to the fact that I picked the model up from the retailer in person rather than entrusting it to Parcel Farce or Herpes?

 

Andy.

 

Which may be right indeed .Who really is able to nail the reason for the current spate of disasters on the doorstep?

 

However. Consider this.This unfortunate series of happenings occurred,perhaps to a lesser extent,when Heljan's O2 arrived a couple of years ago. I believe I am correct in saying that Rails rejected a proportion of their original delivery all with similar issues..before they went out to customers.Now we have one retailer who shows us images of the state of his current 47XX delivery.So who delivers to him?

 

What I think needs to be taken into consideration that this

 

A). Has happened before and is a known problem..i.e "bits in the box"

 

B) Is surely Heljan's ultimate responsibility to resolve with supplier/shipping line or whomsoever.

 

My First O2 was delivered by Hermes.My second by Royal Mail. Neither exhibited a problem except for one small boiler stay loose in one of them.

 

Anecdotally others will relate issues with loose bits in Heljan boxes for a wide variety of models.And yes I am aware that this problem is not unique to Heljan. One enthusist I know quotes tongue in cheek to me..."Chinese glue..." Who knows ?

[Star-rider]

Hi Mike,

 

With regard to the packaging - if anything, I would say that it is as, if not more, substantial that either the standard red or blue boxes. Perhaps it is not quite the right shape and therefore putting undue strain on the model? It’s difficult for me to say as mine was broken before I removed it from the packaging.

 

Cheers,

 

Castle

I'm feeling guilty now as I gave a positive review having had a good one.

 

Reading the above posts though I wonder if the assembled models passed QC at the end of the production line but were then badly handled into the plastic tray during packaging with undue pressure, particularly on the front end?

 

As per my original post, my front axle was awry too, I wonder if someone was using the front wheels and end to pull it down into the tray? If I were Heljan I would go and look over the shoulder of whoever was packing these to make sure they are being handled correctly. Super detailed models have many fragile parts, it is what we demand. To may of us this is a month or so of disposable income, I do hope it is not being treated in the same way as a guy shoveling fries into a cardboard sleeve in McDonalds.

[Legend]

I should think the manufacturers are tearing their hair out about this. Significant numbers of returns are a financial disaster, never mind the reputational damage. But it is possible for things to happen that are beyond what any manufacturer could plan for. I'm sure we can all think of scenarios.

But I think there are far too many manufacturers relying on the customer to muck in and fix it themselves . I fully accept that Rob given his location, and the fact that as he said there was no guarantee a replacement would be any better , decided to fix it himself. But really we shouldn’t put up with this nonsense . Heljan have form here Clayton, L&B 009 tank, Beyer Garrett and now 47XX. And then there’s Hornby with its 14XX chassis issues , 800 s that can make complete circuits. Most of these are not cheap, but regardless of cost they should always be fit for use

[Neal Ball]

Much as I love getting my stock from hattons, there is also a lot to be said for popping into the local model shop; such as Gaugemaster (Sorry to anyone overseas) and getting them to test it before parting with your money.

 

It does look like a nice loco, hopefully we might get some smaller locos soon. Metro tank anyone?

[tomparryharry]

Much as I love getting my stock from hattons, there is also a lot to be said for popping into the local model shop; such as Gaugemaster (Sorry to anyone overseas) and getting them to test it before parting with your money.

 

It does look like a nice loco, hopefully we might get some smaller locos soon. Metro tank anyone?

Yes please! Like you, I would also like a metro tank. However, It will depend on a number of factors. Has (of any manufacturer) shot themselves in the foot lately? If so, the furore that will befall the hapless producer will influence the next product.

 

For now, I'll continue with my old Wills kit....

 

Cheers,

 

Ian.

[JimC]

Yes please! Like you, I would also like a metro tank. However, It will depend on a number of factors.

 

Bearing in mind the extraordinary number of variations of the Metro, and the fact that most likely each individual one was different in detail after every heavy general, I think you'd need to be extraordinarily thick skinned to go there. Even if you pick a photo of one particular locomotive on one date the chances of getting photos that show both sides in sufficient detail are not great.

Edited April 15, 2018 by JimC

[Dunsignalling]

Bearing in mind the extraordinary number of variations of the Metro, and the fact that they most likely were different in detail after every heavy general, I think you'd need to be extraordinarily thick skinned to go there. 

Definitely, even if they did a dozen variations it would be wrong for more people than it was right.......

[Castle]

I'm feeling guilty now as I gave a positive review having had a good one.

 

Reading the above posts though I wonder if the assembled models passed QC at the end of the production line but were then badly handled into the plastic tray during packaging with undue pressure, particularly on the front end?

 

As per my original post, my front axle was awry too, I wonder if someone was using the front wheels and end to pull it down into the tray? If I were Heljan I would go and look over the shoulder of whoever was packing these to make sure they are being handled correctly. Super detailed models have many fragile parts, it is what we demand. To may of us this is a month or so of disposable income, I do hope it is not being treated in the same way as a guy shoveling fries into a cardboard sleeve in McDonalds.

Hi Star-Rider,

 

Don’t feel guilty good sir - you have been very fortunate! Go and get a lottery ticket too - it might be your lucky week...

 

All the best,

 

Castle

[Silver Sidelines]

Hi Coachman

 

Is this a wind up or am I missing something.

 

The obvious answer (to me) is a metal footplate. It also has the advantage of putting weight low down. One model with such a footplate is the Oxford Rail Dean Goods.

 

Surely using a metal footplate is how Bachmann have been making all their new models from the turn of the century?  You will have a better understanding of the details but their WD8F and A1 must be among the earliest examples.

 

A proper 2-8-0 and BR(WR)

 

I would say that WD8F still takes some beating and would appear to win hands down against the Heljan  47xx.

 

Ray

[Steamport Southport]

I'm feeling guilty now as I gave a positive review having had a good one.

 

Reading the above posts though I wonder if the assembled models passed QC at the end of the production line but were then badly handled into the plastic tray during packaging with undue pressure, particularly on the front end?

 

As per my original post, my front axle was awry too, I wonder if someone was using the front wheels and end to pull it down into the tray? If I were Heljan I would go and look over the shoulder of whoever was packing these to make sure they are being handled correctly. Super detailed models have many fragile parts, it is what we demand. To may of us this is a month or so of disposable income, I do hope it is not being treated in the same way as a guy shoveling fries into a cardboard sleeve in McDonalds.

 

Don't feel guilty.

 

It's just that your experience is different than others. I would be more alarmed if someone gave a bad (or good) review because of something they personally haven't experienced.

 

 

 

Jason

[coachmann]

Hi Coachman

 

Is this a wind up or am I missing something.

 

 

Surely using a metal footplate is how Bachmann have been making all their new models from the turn of the century?  You will have a better understanding of the details but their WD8F and A1 must be among the earliest examples.

If you are missing something, it is a sense of proportion! 

 

I mentioned a metal footplate, but I did not say I invented the damned idea. 

[7007GreatWestern]

 

A proper 2-8-0 and BR(WR)

 

I would say that WD8F still takes some beating and would appear to win hands down against the Heljan  47xx.

 

Ray

 

With the greatest respect Ray, whether the Bachmann WD beats the Heljan 47' depends on the criteria you use to compare them. I own both. The WD runs well enough but is distinctly 'growly'. In contrast the Heljan model is very smooth and extremely quiet. Another thing to bear in mind is that although the decoder is in the tender on both locos the WD doesn't even 'pick up' from the tender wheels - the Heljan model does.

 

I'd be very interested to see a head-to-head comparison of the Heljan model's pulling power against the WD and other existing eight coupled engines. Over on 'A Nod To Brent', Bob (81C) has already done a very impressive trial of the 4700's haulage prowess:-

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/69664-a-nod-to-brent/?p=3127990

 

Charisma is a very subjective thing and probably entirely personal. But owning both I'd take the 4700 every time.......IF you can get one that survives the journey to your layout!

 

Andy.

[robmcg]

the 47XX has charisma in spades!

 

 

edited photo, will remove if required

 

 

[Hilux5972]

Well i took the plunge and ordered the BR Black version from Hattons. I sent a seperate email asking them to go over the model with a fine tooth comb prior to sending it to New Zealand. Easier than return postage and all the hassle involved. Looking forward to receiving it soon.

[Silver Sidelines]

Thanks Andy for the response.

 

I am not persuaded.

 

..whether the Bachmann WD beats the Heljan 47' depends on the criteria you use to compare them.y.

 

Given the quality control issues reported here it will be some time before I am persuaded to buy the 47xx.

 

In the mean time a video of a recently purchased 8F (less than half the price of the 47xx). 

 

 

It is hauling 26 wagons up my 1 in 56 grades and 36 inch curves.  There are two tweaks that need to be carried out.  The body shell needs to be eased around the motor terminals to reduce noise and Bachmann have thoughtfully provided a wee hole in the front weight where you can trickle in some extra lead shot - 15 gm seems fine.

 

Regards

 

Ray