Heljan GWR 47xx Night Owl

[tomparryharry]

Just a quick question Folks.

 

What is the minimum radius for the model?

 

Many thanks,

 

Ian.

[adb968008]

I was getting a bit grumpy with it yesterday but as my layout isn’t the best after a long period of unuse I wanted to make sure I was being honest about it, as it did put in some good performances when tweaked.

 

So today I laid a little test track using some leftovers on (I really do hope) level floor.

 

Here I have a double slip, leading into a 3 way, which from closest to furthest First second and third radius curves.

On the outer side of the three way point is two settrack points and a set track curved point.

 

The result is here:

 

 

On the first test it satisfies the slip, and the set track. It also passed the 3rd radius but comes unstuck on the 1st radius, finally on the 3 way it dies. (This happened each time I tried and invariably derails).

What I didn’t do was the curve..see next..

 

It fails to take the curve on each attempt.

To ensue fair play here is my WD doing the same test..

 

Nite the WD comes Unstuck on 1st radius too, but the three way is fine.

 

 

 

 

 

Notice how the 47xx is riding up on the 3 way, at the rear 2 wheels, but only one side of the 3 way, the 1st radius side it was ok.

Now it’s all probability the point, but the 47xx is unforgiving of it, and I found this on my layout many times also.

 

Notice how the pony is locking on the 1st radius.

 

So in conclusion..

1st.. no

2nd yes if well laid

3rd yes

Set track points surprisingly yes

Set track curves No, it will take the outer 3rd if well laid.

Double slip yes if well laid

3 way.. it’s unforgiving of issues and rides up on it.

 

I think that’s a much fairer assessment. If my opinion counts.. i’m still keeping with my 2nd order for the green one, it’s a solid runner, a nice model and pulls well. If I need to make my track better, well there’s no better loco to test out my repair work.

 

That said it needs a longer coupling on the back, if using 2nd radius curves to avoid buffer locking / loss, and some work on the front if using the front coupling, as is, it hits the underside of the vacuum pipe work and will take it out.

Edited April 6, 2018 by adb968008

[adb968008]

Mean while back to aesthetics, here’s some food for thought comparing the 47xx to the similar wheel sized Grange by Hornby.

I think the rivets are fine, note the tender chassis detail around the axle boxes.

 

 

Compare the coupling rod pins.. it’s refreshing !

 

All that’s left now is put back the bits that came off in testing !

Edited April 6, 2018 by adb968008

[Garethp8873]

Mean while back to aesthetics, here’s some food for thought comparing the 47xx to the similar wheel sized Grange by Hornby. 23DEFF2A-834D-4B5D-9F8F-006F7D75D014.jpeg

I think the rivets are fine, note the tender chassis detail around the axle boxes.

 

94210375-9DC8-4995-9432-6BF2780CB144.jpeg

 

Compare the coupling rod pins.. it’s refreshing ! B343FA06-062E-4FC1-9F42-BAE5A78A8A62.jpeg D285BBC2-5868-4D16-8C81-2ECCB1A24A20.jpeg

 

All that’s left now is put back the bits that came off in testing !

Thank you for helping me regain my confidence in buying a GWR 4700

[Metr0Land]

Some earlier pics seemed to show rather heavy rivet detail on the tender but #659 shows a direct comparison with Hornby Grange which looks ok to me.  I guess it's all down to lighting.  Am a bit happier than I was few days ago but will prob wait for BR Green in the flesh before I commit.

[Shroomy]

Has anybody fitted sound if so who does the best sound project for this please

[brushman47544]

Mean while back to aesthetics, here’s some food for thought comparing the 47xx to the similar wheel sized Grange by Hornby.23DEFF2A-834D-4B5D-9F8F-006F7D75D014.jpeg

I think the rivets are fine, note the tender chassis detail around the axle boxes.

94210375-9DC8-4995-9432-6BF2780CB144.jpeg

Compare the coupling rod pins.. it’s refreshing !B343FA06-062E-4FC1-9F42-BAE5A78A8A62.jpegD285BBC2-5868-4D16-8C81-2ECCB1A24A20.jpeg

All that’s left now is put back the bits that came off in testing !

Well those photos are very revealing thanks, but especially the last one. To me the Grange has the look of a GWR loco, but the 47xx does not...quite. The smokebox shape of the 47xx looks more like an ER type and shouldn’t the buffer beam be the same depth as the Grange?

[JimC]

 shouldn’t the buffer beam be the same depth as the Grange?

 

Not according to the GWR GA drawings I have in front of me.

[Shroomy]

Night owl 4706

Lenz silver 21+ decoder 2 tried

Has anybody had any issues with this set up please

First one travels on wrong direction which in itself not a problem change cv

But also stalls then shoots of in either direction and I have switched of DC running

[7007GreatWestern]

Night owl 4706

Lenz silver 21+ decoder 2 tried

Has anybody had any issues with this set up please

First one travels on wrong direction which in itself not a problem change cv

But also stalls then shoots of in either direction and I have switched of DC running

 

Hi Shroomy

 

I've collected my 47xx today from a certain well known retailer in the Widnes area.

 

It is the same model as yours - 4706 in BR Black. I've fitted mine with a Lenz Silver 21+ also. I had to set bit 0 of CV29 to get the direction of travel correct, but apart from that it runs superbly on both DC and DCC. The decoder is set to Lenz' factory default CVs (Long Address excepted).

 

Just a few early impressions for anyone interested. The model is far more impressive in the flesh that in the Rails of Sheffield photos. The photos on Hattons website give a more accurate impression (to my eyes).

 

Mine had no assembly issues whatsoever - straight handrails, buffer beam struts in situ and no rattling parts in the packaging. This must be a world's first, as usually if there is one duff model in a batch that's the one I end up with!

The motor and geartrain are very quiet - far more so than many of my Bachmann models. Again, to my eyes the loco captures the uncompromising bulk of the locos superbly. If the loco is let down at all it is in relatively small details. For example, the handbrake and water scoop standards are so close to the tender bulkhead that the respective crank handles wouldn't turn if it were a real loco! There are some really nice touches however. The safety valves are painted a realistic dark colour quite distinct from the polished brass bonnet that surrounds them. Also, the crosshead driven vacuum pump and 'working' spindle are represented even though they are so far set back from the running plate edge that they are almost invisible.

 

I suspect the model will continue to divide opinion. From my point of view, this is the first GWR rtr model for years that has caused me to say "Wow!". Well done Heljan!

 

Andy.

[Forester]

BTW This is one loco I would have like as a CKD kit it would save no end of time wasted on sorting out the build errors.

 

Can you really build a kit to the standard of this Heljan finish?

 

Or are you saying the Heljan "faults" annoy you so much you'd rather have an average kit finish well below modern RTR standard finish just to have a few niggles sorted?

Edited April 7, 2018 by Forester

[robmcg]

Hi Shroomy

 

I've collected my 47xx today from a certain well known retailer in the Widnes area.

 

.....

 

Just a few early impressions for anyone interested. The model is far more impressive in the flesh that in the Rails of Sheffield photos. The photos on Hattons website give a more accurate impression (to my eyes).

 

Mine had no assembly issues whatsoever - straight handrails, buffer beam struts in situ and no rattling parts in the packaging. This must be a world's first, as usually if there is one duff model in a batch that's the one I end up with!

The motor and geartrain are very quiet - far more so than many of my Bachmann models. Again, to my eyes the loco captures the uncompromising bulk of the locos superbly. If the loco is let down at all it is in relatively small details. For example, the handbrake and water scoop standards are so close to the tender bulkhead that the respective crank handles wouldn't turn if it were a real loco! There are some really nice touches however. The safety valves are painted a realistic dark colour quite distinct from the polished brass bonnet that surrounds them. Also, the crosshead driven vacuum pump and 'working' spindle are represented even though they are so far set back from the running plate edge that they are almost invisible.

 

I suspect the model will continue to divide opinion. From my point of view, this is the first GWR rtr model for years that has caused me to say "Wow!". Well done Heljan!

 

Andy.

 

Thankyou for that, having two on order I am now cautiously optimistic!  I too have found shop photos often do not represent the look of a model very well, even if they highlight details.

 

I nevertheless think that an RTR buyer has to accept a degree of chance in purchases, and such is the detail of modern 00 RTR steam that minor issues are likely, and major issue not unknown. Returns and refunds are of course generally quite simple, but it is an annoying thing in few times I have had to resort to that.

 

Mind you when the Heljan Garratt was released you would have thought by reading RMweb that a high proportion were faulty, but this was not so in my experience.

 

As to building a model like the 47XX or Garratt from parts, I certainly would not be able to do this. One can always modify, weather, improve RTR.

 

cheers

[81C]

Can you really build a kit to the standard of this Heljan finish?

 

Or are you saying the Heljan "faults" annoy you so much you'd rather have an average kit finish well below modern RTR standard finish just to have a few niggles sorted?

 It's clear you have not read and understood what I posted If you posed me a sensible question instead of misquoting me twice I would give you an answer,

 pick on someone else I don't put up with nonsense like yours.

[Forester]

 It's clear you have not read and understood what I posted If you posed me a sensible question instead of misquoting me twice I would give you an answer,

 pick on someone else I don't put up with nonsense like yours.

 

So the bit about the kit was tongue in cheek, or what?

 

Misquoted? The only quote was a Reply Quoting this Post.

 

"Saying" was a figure of speech. Not a good one, I admit.

[Castle]

Hi All,

 

I don’t like bashing manufacturers as we live in something of a golden age of production of seemingly obscure, no way that will every be RTR type prototypes. Isn’t it great? I’m not the greatest fan of the 47XX as a loco but given that a group within the GWS is building one I thought I would get one and do a ‘Little Didcot’ job on it. Something a bit different I thought. A tiring day turning spanners on No. 4079 later and a brown card box awaited me on my return to Chez Castle! I’ve been looking forward to this!

 

Well, mines going back! No damage to the box Hattons sent it in. No damage to Heljan’s box either or the seemingly bombproof plastic surrounding it. So can someone please tell me why it looks like this?

 

 

The front buffers are flapping around on the shafts, the running plate is flapping around and the hanging bar is split through at the top of the Holcroft curve, one of the support struts is missing (or so I thought), the top lamp iron is crushed and the vacuum pipe broke off as I lifted it out of the plastic. This is the first Heljan loco I have bought and might be the last. It must have been packed at the factory like this. How do I know? Because the packaging is pristine and after examining something poking out from the card in the red bit of the box I found this:

 

 

There is no way it could have got there other than if it was dropped at the factory as it was being packaged and the mortal remains then poured into the box. It’s also covered in oil. Looking at he way it is splashed up the firebox, I think it’s the result of it being dropped. Needless to say, Hattons will be being contacted forthwith. It’s a real shame as I think, despite a few shortcomings, it has potential to be modified and weathered into quite a good model. Something I was really looking forward to doing. Not with this one though...

 

As one of my friends has just messaged me and said, “Well played Heljan, it takes real effort to be this bad!”

 

Except he didn’t use the word bad...

 

It was another word...

 

A naughty word...

 

All the best,

 

Castle

[adb968008]

What a shame.

 

Interestingly it’s 3 out of 5 though now where the support bar was loose, and 2/5 where the vac pipe came off.

The support bar on mine, the hole wasn’t fully drilled into smokebox hence doesn’t sit... <1second with a 0.8mm drill bit ends that issue permanently...though it requires a boiler lift ! (OO style).

 

Vac pipe.. it’s the pony wheel hitting mine that does it..the pipe runs under the beam and into the path of the pony...give it a knock and it pops off the vac bag (which is a separately glued piece to the vac pipe ) I assume through flexing it when hit.

 

Gutted for you.. I’ve been well excited by this model (as easy to see by the volume of posts)... i’m Looking forwards to seeing images on some picturesque layouts.

Edited April 7, 2018 by adb968008

[Star-rider]

For what it's worth, here are my thoughts after spending a day with my new arrival:

 

As others have said it is reassuringly heavy; all the mass and gravitas of a well fed high court judge. Siting on my my DC test track it looked straight and well proportioned but the front wheels would not sit right on the track. Lifting it off again the problem was found to be that one side of axle had not been snapped into the bearing, something that was easy to fix with a minute with the screwdriver.

 

After checking all was well on DC I set about fitting a decoder. I really like the method of accessing the control board in the tender from the top on this model, much better than trying to remove screws whilst holding a loco upside down and watching lots of delicate pieces fall off no matter how carefully you try to handle it. There is loads of room in there and it has obviously been made for sound fitting in mind with a good sized chamber for a speaker.

 

My first choice are always the Bachmann branded ESU decoders and I installed the one I had ordered with the loco. Like others have noted in the posts above, it then smoothly and silently glided off in the opposite direction to which I had intended it resulting in me having to add 1 to the value at CV29. No real drama, it it seems a bit of a schoolboy error in the factory.

 

Given what has been posted above I watched it very carefully at the start of its running in period as my "up" line has a facing three way point and my "down" line takes it across a double sip (although straight through it if you know what I mean). My trackwork is Peco code 100 and generally set around a 900mm radius although there are one or two tight spots where my tracklaying ambition exceeded my ability. I have to report it ran through everything faultlessly at low and moderate speeds. The Bachmann decoder is giving good running qualities although I perceive that it may be be speeding and slowing slightly on certain sections of the track. I suspect that this is probably down to load control / back EMF settings on the decoder and is something that I am fairly confident I can iron out. There is usually no point in messing around too much until the loco is fully run-in and everything has bedded in nicely.

 

There is no point in me entering into a debate about the accuracy or the details of the model as I am not qualified to do so, but I can say that so far I am entirely satisfied with what has been the most expensive locomotive purchase I have made to date.

 

Pete.

[Shroomy]

Another thing I would like to add is how I am disapointed with the way the decoder board is fixed by a piece of not so tacky double sided tape surely two screws would of been just as easy I understand it has to be removed to fit sound but double sided tape leaves it open for shorts again it's something that can be easily remedied

But because of its erratic behaviour on track mine is going back which is a shame as the body and fittings are all fine

Let's see what the replacement is like

[Butler Henderson]

Well those photos are very revealing thanks, but especially the last one. To me the Grange has the look of a GWR loco, but the 47xx does not...quite. The smokebox shape of the 47xx looks more like an ER type

Always look at a prototype photo - looking at Locos Illustrated 29 "GWR Eight-coupled" the 47xx's do appear to have an ERish smokebox door.

[bike2steam]

Always look at a prototype photo - looking at Locos Illustrated 29 "GWR Eight-coupled" the 47xx's do appear to have an ERish smokebox door.

 

Ya mean as in post # 67.

[MG 7305]

This one was a simple fix for me, I took the tank off elongate the fixing holes (3) by pulling the tool boxes and tank filler cap off, remove the 3 screws the tank came clear of the chassis I then

slotted out the fixing holes towards the rear end of the tender with a broach file just enough for the screws to go back in when the tank relocated in position and pushed forward, then I

checking the position of the tank when tightening the screws back up, I made holes just big enough having removed sufficent plastic first time there was a bit of chassis showing when

viewed from the top at the rear.

 

Don't take this on if you are not sure I wouldn't like any one to buqqer up their loco.

 

BTW This is one loco I would have like as a CKD kit it would save no end of time wasted on sorting out the build errors.

 

Many thanks for this tip, I will do it tonight.

[robmcg]

Pictures now on Hattons website show stock items,  they look good to me, I have enlarged them slightly and added shading, otherwise untouched.  No connection.

 

I'm still waiting for my two... but they are somewhere en route to me.

 

 

[81C]

Your pretty much spot on there, I only have 1x 1st radius curve on an industrial branch but the rest of my layout of 2nd or 3rd radius.

I use a number of Peco curves it will take the outer 3rd but not the inner 2nd. On curves themselves any slight kink (mine right now has a number due to the cold weather and track shrinkage) it’ll bomb out. After a little fettling on those curves it settled in, but any impurity it will find them... I think the only other loco that is a little fussy as this is Roco’s BR 52 but that is also much more forgiving... it’ll definitely be my test loco of choice in any future track works !

 

What concerned me more was the rejection of Peco double slips and 3 way points. I’m putting this down to the pony wheel.. I checked it’s back to back.. it’s actually near impossible to not have accurate back to backs.. as the axle doesn’t fully penetrate the wheel (nice) so when you push it tight..your in gauge.. I think it’s the pony truck...it’s got no weight and no spring.. I think as it hits the intense frame work of these points it’s getting imbedded into the blade..stops the loco dead and if your cornering..it’ll tip it over.

 

I may just remove it and run it as on 0-8-0 to test the theory first.

I spent some time on my one today the pony truck is far too light ( I might pinch the one off a Cotwold kit) so some lead weight was added as much as possible in the small space and a Romford axle installed.

 

The tender coupling has disappeared somewhere so a slightly longer Bachmann one put in and there is no buffer lock now and the tender - loco coupling altered so there

is a large gap between the two as this was making the front ride over the rails on a radius of 36" all the side motion has had a drop of oil on the joints and rubbing surfaces

and it's running a treat (smallest radius I have is 36" ), have fun putting the brake rodding in I finally resorted to a drop of super glue at either end to keep it in place.

 

It will be coaled ,lamps and some brass number plates put on and the fall plate will go in when the crew has had a lick of paint and some fireirons when the iron rack has been 

slotted out at the front of the tender.

 

One other thing is the whistles correct size one will go on it if they can be sourced but thats not the end of the world for me.

[BRIAN T]

Went to my local excellent Model shop to view this Model 47xx, I'm so glad it was not on my buy at any cost list.

On speaking to the shop owner I asked if the threads I had been reading about curves points and slips derailing were true or any truth at all .

The reply was the models they received would not run on a short straight yet alone anything else ,subsequently we opened he box and ran one on the test track .....lo and behold the pony truck derailed in less than 6 inches and after recovering the other bits that had fallen ff ,smoke box stay and lamp irons ,it was repacked ready for it to be returned to Heljan with some of its brothers for company.

A superb paper weight though.

Nuff said

[robmcg]

When I received my 47XX from Rails a few hours ago I was pleased to see that it looked right in its plastic shroud, footplate stays in place, but when I placed it on my test track, oh dear, front axle awry, oil marks on paint.  Nor sure about it really...I'm not very keen to waste a couple of hours and about UKP20 to send it back from NZ.  

 

 

 

I had quite high hopes for this model. I wonder what proportion are faulty?  Given the issues with the front pony truck are there any things I might consider to make it good or should I just sigh and end it back?