Heljan GWR 47xx Night Owl

[The Fatadder]

...or as broken spares on eBay?

Quite

Though recently I've found complete locos a lot harder to come by, seems the majority have cottoned on to the fact locos are worth more as parts, still not found the damaged BR Star I've been looking for (to reprint in unlined green G c W)

 

With the awful electrics in the King I suspect there ought to be some bargains there over the next year...

[Hilux5972]

Quite

Though recently I've found complete locos a lot harder to come by, seems the majority have cottoned on to the fact locos are worth more as parts, still not found the damaged BR Star I've been looking for (to reprint in unlined green G c W)

 

With the awful electrics in the King I suspect there ought to be some bargains there over the next year...

What's wrong with the electrics in the Kings? Mine is smooth as silk and never misses a beat.

[The Fatadder]

Both of mine have electrics which look like they were soldered by a blind two year old, numourous shorts between the pickups and motor (to the point that the loco runs perfectly without the blanking plug fitted) and exposed connectors / striped insulation on wires.

 

Both have got to be fully rewired before they will work on DCC. Not what you expect for £120!

 

To top it all on DC the loco works fine, so testing prior to rebranding and renunbering worked perfectly. So I can't even return it given the amount of work I have done...

[Hilux5972]

Heljan have said on Facebook that they received a 1st running sample last week and are now in the process of making corrections. Hopefully decorated samples wont be too far away.

[Hilux5972]

Don't have a link but here is a screen shot.

[County of Yorkshire]

In a spontaneous bit of correspondence over the BH weekend, I fired off an email to Heljan, and was pleasantly surprised with a reply first thing Tuesday morning. My question was to query the livery choice for 4707 in G-Crest-W livery, and asking whether they had evidence for this livery every actually being carried; providing them with a link to a Colour Rail image showing G-W-R on the tender as I did so. 

 

Heljan's reply and attached image is posted with the consent of Kim from their customer service team:

 

"'Good' images of these locomotives in the GWR period are hard to come by, but the livery application for model 4782 - 4707 in G W livery with garter between the G and W was sourced from the attached photograph which appears to show this."

 

Ask and ye shall get an answer!

 

Also..

 

"We expect the 47xx in the late 3^rd/early 4^th quarter 2017"

 

Cheers, 

 

CoY

 

Image posted with Heljan's consent.  - I did have their consent, but have taken it down to remove the potential for any issues that may be caused. 

 

Image removed 01/06/17. 

Edited June 1, 2017 by County of Yorkshire

[gwrrob]

Nice one Jon.

[The Fatadder]

In a spontaneous bit of correspondence over the BH weekend, I fired off an email to Heljan, and was pleasantly surprised with a reply first thing Tuesday morning. My question was to query the livery choice for 4707 in G-Crest-W livery, and asking whether they had evidence for this livery every actually being carried; providing them with a link to a Colour Rail image showing G-W-R on the tender as I did so.

 

Heljan's reply and attached image is posted with the consent of Kim from their customer service team:

 

"'Good' images of these locomotives in the GWR period are hard to come by, but the livery application for model 4782 - 4707 in G W livery with garter between the G and W was sourced from the attached photograph which [/size]appears to show this."[/size]

 

4707 G W OOC March 1946.jpg

 

Ask and ye shall get an answer!

 

Also..

 

"We expect the 47xx in the late 3[/size]^rd/early 4[/size]^th quarter 2017"[/size]

 

Cheers,

 

CoY

 

Image posted with Heljan's consent.

Now to confirm if 4703 was the same or G W R....

I suspect the latter, in which case I seem to recall Heljan printing as easy to remove

Edited June 1, 2017 by The Fatadder

[Hilux5972]

Great news it's due later this year. Can't wait to see them.

[Guest 7007GreatWestern]

In a spontaneous bit of correspondence over the BH weekend, I fired off an email to Heljan, and was pleasantly surprised with a reply first thing Tuesday morning. My question was to query the livery choice for 4707 in G-Crest-W livery, and asking whether they had evidence for this livery every actually being carried; providing them with a link to a Colour Rail image showing G-W-R on the tender as I did so. 

 

 

 

Errrr......You queried this livery on "A Nod to Brent" nearly a year ago (June 7th 2016) and I went to the trouble of finding this photograph, verifying that 4707 did indeed carry the livery in question and quoting my source (ANTB Post 18432).

 

Here is the relevant section of my post in which, as it happens, I addressed you personally:-

 

 

"In answer to M.I.B, County of Yorkshire and others concerning the postwar livery applied to 47xx locomotives: In most of the (rare) photos I have seen of the class in the postwar period they are so covered in filth that it's pretty well impossible to identify a livery!

I have however found one photograph of 4707 in G-coat-of-arms-W livery as per the Heljan model. In "Churchward Locomotives" by Messrs Haresnape & Swain it is seen at Old Oak in March 1946 sporting said livery. The photographer was H.C. Casserley no less."

 

I'd say that's a pretty thorough and comprehensive answer. I've quoted the Book, Title, Publisher, Place, Date and Photographer. Many people would consider that a reliable answer.

 

 

I have a couple of points to make. Firstly, what IS the point of breaking out the books and tracking down accurate answers to people's prototype questions when they are disregarded anyway. It would seem that for some people, ONLY seeing is believing.

 

My second point is that I made the decision NOT to reproduce the H.C. Casserley photograph out of respect for the Copyright holder. You say that Heljan A/S have authorised you to reproduce this photograph, but that is irrelevant unless they own the copyright. Do they?

[The Stationmaster]

Errrr......You queried this livery on "A Nod to Brent" nearly a year ago (June 7th 2016) and I went to the trouble of finding this photograph, verifying that 4707 did indeed carry the livery in question and quoting my source (ANTB Post 18432).

 

Here is the relevant section of my post in which, as it happens, I addressed you personally:-

 

 

"In answer to M.I.B, County of Yorkshire and others concerning the postwar livery applied to 47xx locomotives: In most of the (rare) photos I have seen of the class in the postwar period they are so covered in filth that it's pretty well impossible to identify a livery!

I have however found one photograph of 4707 in G-coat-of-arms-W livery as per the Heljan model. In "Churchward Locomotives" by Messrs Haresnape & Swain it is seen at Old Oak in March 1946 sporting said livery. The photographer was H.C. Casserley no less."

 

I'd say that's a pretty thorough and comprehensive answer. I've quoted the Book, Title, Publisher, Place, Date and Photographer. Many people would consider that a reliable answer.

 

 

I have a couple of points to make. Firstly, what IS the point of breaking out the books and tracking down accurate answers to people's prototype questions when they are disregarded anyway. It would seem that for some people, ONLY seeing is believing.

 

My second point is that I made the decision NOT to reproduce the H.C. Casserley photograph out of respect for the Copyright holder. You say that Heljan A/S have authorised you to reproduce this photograph, but that is irrelevant unless they own the copyright. Do they?

 

Some of Casserley's pictures (27 according to their list) are held by the HMRS; some non-railway pictures are held by other organisations;  but generally the railway pictures are held by his son and he will undoubtedly also hold the copyright.

 

For all we know he might well have authorised Heljan to use a copy of that picture for publicity purposes although it might only have been supplied for research purposes.  I would seriously doubt that it has been supplied with permission for a third party to publish it especially in a manner where copies, albeit with some moire pattern, can easily be made at quite a high level of resolution (don't worry - I simply proved to myself that it could be done and then destroyed all 2.4mb of it).  Maybe yet again we might be seeing a situation similar to the one where Paul Bartlett apparently supplied photos for research which subsequently found their way into wider - unauthorised - use?

 

As for your point regarding posting details of research from books and publications of know provenance I thoroughly sympathise.  It could well be that in this case your post was missed, or maybe even forgotten,  but it is indeed galling to have gone to the trouble of spending time researching something and posting the results only to find it ignored or, even worse, totally missed in a thread where somebody posts vaguely similar information on the following page (but often containing inaccuracies which have to be corrected).  None of the latter in this instance of course but still I am sure that feeling of 'why did I bother?'  is still there.  

 

Incidentally I'm not knocking CoY in particular in my comments as it is an all too common theme on here at times but I do in this particular case continue to question the possible infringement of copyright - albeit done in good faith by CoY.

[Guest 7007GreatWestern]

Thank You Stationmaster,

 

I should point out that I have absolutely no grievance against either County of Yorkshire or Heljan. In fact I'm delighted that Heljan are tooling up a model I never thought I would see in RTR form.

 

My issue is really about the relationship of the internet to information. When I was at school and later at University it was drummed into me that there is a difference between, on the one hand facts, then logical conclusions supported by evidence and finally at the bottom of the food-chain opinions and views. I was always taught to respect a logical conclusion provided it had supporting evidence, such as quoted and attributed sources.

 

Since those far-off days we have seen the rise of the internet and social media. Now there is little distinction between opinions, personal agendas and spin on the one hand, and facts on the other. Hence we have the phenomenon of "Fake News" and "Alternative Facts" which have become the bane of what is ironically called "The Information Age". Another troubling phenomenon of our time is the lack of respect for other people's copyright work which is made easy by the immediate and unlimited duplication and dissemination that the internet offers.

 

Stationmaster is quite correct - the tell tale moire fringes are present in the image which proves that it is taken from a halftone image (printing press) and not from a continuous tone image (original negative or enprint). I dare say it was taken from the same book I cited.

 

According to Mr. Casserley's Wikipedia entry (and yes, he has a Wikipedia entry) he died in 1991. I was born after the age of steam and only "know" the true age of steam thanks to the works of the likes of Mr. Casserley, Maurice Early, Dick Riley and others. Please folks, let's show some respect.

[County of Yorkshire]

Image removed to avoid any issues. 

 

Please see verbatim the relevant parts of my email correspondence with Heljan below: 

 

Myself: 

Please may I ask you a further two questions?

 

First, would I be able to share your email and the attached image with the online model railway forum RMweb of which I am a member?

 

 

Kim at Heljan:

Hi Jon

 

1)     Yes, you may share my e-mail as long as it is not being misused.

 

If I have misinterpreted 'misused' and my posting of the image was infact a misuse, then I apologise; an honest mistake. 

 

7007GreatWestern - apologies for stepping on your toes, I have no rational explanation as to why I forgot about your answer given in June 2016 - my action would irritate me if I were you!

 

Well, as least we have a definite answer to the livery question now... so worth i,t we said it twice!

 

CoY

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited June 1, 2017 by County of Yorkshire

[Guest 7007GreatWestern]

 

Image removed to avoid any issues. 

 

Please see verbatim the relevant parts of my email correspondence with Heljan below: 

 

Myself: 

Please may I ask you a further two questions?

 

First, would I be able to share your email and the attached image with the online model railway forum RMweb of which I am a member?

 

 

Kim at Heljan:

Hi Jon

 

1)     Yes, you may share my e-mail as long as it is not being misused.

 

If I have misinterpreted 'misused' and my posting of the image was infact a misuse, then I apologise; an honest mistake. 

 

7007GreatWestern - apologies for stepping on your toes, I have no rational explanation as to why I forgot about your answer given in June 2016 - my action would irritate me if I were you!

 

Well, as least we have a definite answer to the livery question now... so worth i,t we said it twice!

 

CoY

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Thanks CoY, no hard feelings. 

 

Very Best Regards,

 

Andy (aka 7007 Great Western).

[The Stationmaster]

Thank You Stationmaster,

 

I should point out that I have absolutely no grievance against either County of Yorkshire or Heljan. In fact I'm delighted that Heljan are tooling up a model I never thought I would see in RTR form.

 

My issue is really about the relationship of the internet to information. When I was at school and later at University it was drummed into me that there is a difference between, on the one hand facts, then logical conclusions supported by evidence and finally at the bottom of the food-chain opinions and views. I was always taught to respect a logical conclusion provided it had supporting evidence, such as quoted and attributed sources.

 

Since those far-off days we have seen the rise of the internet and social media. Now there is little distinction between opinions, personal agendas and spin on the one hand, and facts on the other. Hence we have the phenomenon of "Fake News" and "Alternative Facts" which have become the bane of what is ironically called "The Information Age". Another troubling phenomenon of our time is the lack of respect for other people's copyright work which is made easy by the immediate and unlimited duplication and dissemination that the internet offers.

 

Stationmaster is quite correct - the tell tale moire fringes are present in the image which proves that it is taken from a halftone image (printing press) and not from a continuous tone image (original negative or enprint). I dare say it was taken from the same book I cited.

 

According to Mr. Casserley's Wikipedia entry (and yes, he has a Wikipedia entry) he died in 1991. I was born after the age of steam and only "know" the true age of steam thanks to the works of the likes of Mr. Casserley, Maurice Early, Dick Riley and others. Please folks, let's show some respect.

 

Well said.

 

Just to give you a bit more context I met Dick Riley on a number of occasions (and you might have too if you went to the stand of a certain publisher at model railway shows - he only died in 2006) and I also met Maurice Earley (died 1982) many years ago as he was a good friend of a local railway enthusiast who I knew very well.   Even easier having met them to show the respect for their work which they so truly deserve and for recording what were to some us everyday scenes from the age of steam when we had neither had the cameras nor the film to record what we were seeing and what was disappearing in front of our eyes.

 

We owe all the past photographers an enormous debt for recording the railway of their time and the preservation and use of their images really does deserve our respect.

[Guest 7007GreatWestern]

Well said.

 

Just to give you a bit more context I met Dick Riley on a number of occasions (and you might have too if you went to the stand of a certain publisher at model railway shows - he only died in 2006) and I also met Maurice Earley (died 1982) many years ago as he was a good friend of a local railway enthusiast who I knew very well.   

 

 

Dear Stationmaster,

 

Just to add yet more context - the superb photographs of the late Dick Riley are available for purchase from a website called Transport Treasury. I thought it would be interesting to download the catalogue covering Mr. Riley's work. I was amazed to find that it runs to around fifteen thousand photographs taken over the period 1937 - 1967 and that total would have been far higher were it not for the war! A truly prodigious photographer and an irreplaceable collection. He was also one of the very few photographers who could afford colour photography even in the mid 1950s.

 

You know, I do get the impression at times Mr. Stationmaster that a book of your recollections and experiences "back in the day" would make a very good read indeed!

[Clearwater]

Andy

Many thanks for the Transport Treasury site tip - an excellent site. Had a quick flick through the Riley images - some excellent shots. E.g. Of carriages and pre war autocoaches

David

Edited June 1, 2017 by Clearwater

[Coach bogie]

Well said.

 

Just to give you a bit more context I met Dick Riley on a number of occasions (and you might have too if you went to the stand of a certain publisher at model railway shows - he only died in 2006) and I also met Maurice Earley (died 1982) many years ago as he was a good friend of a local railway enthusiast who I knew very well.   Even easier having met them to show the respect for their work which they so truly deserve and for recording what were to some us everyday scenes from the age of steam when we had neither had the cameras nor the film to record what we were seeing and what was disappearing in front of our eyes.

 

We owe all the past photographers an enormous debt for recording the railway of their time and the preservation and use of their images really does deserve our respect.

I was also lucky enough to meet Mr Earley, through my uncle, but sadly, I was too young to really appreciate the opportunity. I used to be in the company of someone, who new him well and had many of his prints and contact sheets, which he used to show to anyone interested.  There was one contact sheet that stood out, with images of The Great Bear, taken in the last few weeks in service. These were some of Mr Earley's earliest pictures. I was told the reason for the contact sheet- to see if any were worth printing up. With his high standards none were. What I did find remarkable is the way he was able to negotiate the taking of images during the war. I am lucky to have prints of some of his USA S150 shots taken at Reading.

 

Dick Riley had this magnificent and respectful way of communicating with railway employees, to the extent that he could just walk into Old Oak and the the foreman would arrange for an engine to be brought out into the sunshine for a picture.I was told by someone who knew him well of a trip to Canton to see the last straight framed Saint in its' last days in service. The foreman refused to let them see it as it was too mucky.............but come back later and the engine will be presentable.

 

Mike Wiltshire

[Hal Nail]

We are getting way off topic but just wanted to mention Mr Peter W Grey in the same context as the other luminaries being remembered above. The quality, detail and sharpness of their photos is even more remarkable when you consider the limitations of early colour film. Increasingly priceless references as time moves on.

[Guest 7007GreatWestern]

We are getting way off topic but just wanted to mention Mr Peter W Grey in the same context as the other luminaries being remembered above. The quality, detail and sharpness of their photos is even more remarkable when you consider the limitations of early colour film. Increasingly priceless references as time moves on.

 

Yes we are getting way off topic....I do hope the OP will indulge us......

 

I entirely agree about Peter W. Gray - he was along with Dick Riley one of the very early adopters of colour, his first Kodachrome 1 colour transparency being taken as early as April 1957. He almost single handedly documented the entire railway system of the South West peninsula, darting about the country lanes aboard his 200cc LE Velocette motor cycle. Until very recently I believe he was still writing a column for the Torquay Herald recounting his memories of Western Region steam in the 50s and 60s! The series of books he produced for Ian Allan in the late nineties and early noughties based on his own colour archive photographs are simply jaw dropping in terms of their quality and scope.

 

Other honourable mentions should go to Trevor Owen who almost single handedly documented the Cambrian system in exquisite colour, R.J Blenkinsop who covered so much around the south midlands, Norman Lockett for his coverage of Bath and Avon, R.O Tuck and John Hodge for their coverage of the North & West route, as well as the likes of Hugh Balantyne, Derek Penney, Derek Cross and a tiny handful of other noble souls who's name I can't recall at the moment, but who together ensured we have a vivid record of what was taken away from us in the name of "progress".

[adb968008]

was amazed to find that it runs to around fifteen thousand photographs taken over the period 1937 - 1967 and that total would have been far higher were it not for the war! A truly prodigious photographer and an irreplaceable collection. He was also one of the very few photographers who could afford colour photography even in the mid 1950s.

 

Wow, I've a collection of over 100k images, known mostly only to myself covering the last 30 years (amen for digital), I'm young.. still time to keep clicking, your post gives me hope that someday they are useful to someone other than myself !

I actually found a Kodak chrome film from the 90's needing k14 processing just the other day, sadly it looks like I left that one too late to process, that technique was end of life in 2010, and the last chemicals for that process were used up in 2013.

It won't have a 47xx on it, but it could well have 25's-56's on it.

Edited June 1, 2017 by adb968008

[The Johnster]

I was also lucky enough to meet Mr Earley, through my uncle, but sadly, I was too young to really appreciate the opportunity. I used to be in the company of someone, who new him well and had many of his prints and contact sheets, which he used to show to anyone interested.  There was one contact sheet that stood out, with images of The Great Bear, taken in the last few weeks in service. These were some of Mr Earley's earliest pictures. I was told the reason for the contact sheet- to see if any were worth printing up. With his high standards none were. What I did find remarkable is the way he was able to negotiate the taking of images during the war. I am lucky to have prints of some of his USA S150 shots taken at Reading.

 

Dick Riley had this magnificent and respectful way of communicating with railway employees, to the extent that he could just walk into Old Oak and the the foreman would arrange for an engine to be brought out into the sunshine for a picture.I was told by someone who knew him well of a trip to Canton to see the last straight framed Saint in its' last days in service. The foreman refused to let them see it as it was too mucky.............but come back later and the engine will be presentable.

 

Mike Wiltshire

 

2906 Lady of Lynn in 1952, which worked it's last train a few days later, a Cardiff (Tidal Sidings)-Moreton Cutting freight, then light to Swindon for disposal, i.e scrapping.  It was still in 'full Canton gleam', and few locos can ever have been withdrawn direct from service in this external condition.  Mr Riley's shots of it, both on shed and hauling a freight through Leckwith Junction, have appeared many times and are excellent.  It was still in GW austerity black, with G W R initials, but had been fitted with a red backed BR smokebox and had red backgrounds to it's name and number plates.  I have a vague intention to model it as a mantelpiece static in this condition one day.  It was not a true 'straight frame', AFAIK there were none by then, having curved drops at the leading end, but it had the original straight frame cab with the short cabsheets, to my view the best looking version of what was a very handsome loco to start with!

[OnTheBranchline]

A short video containing a 47xx freight working:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xZ76cbRa4q4

[The Johnster]

I was admittedly not familiar with these locos back in the day, as they were not the easiest to track down at the best of times and I lived, and still do, in South Wales where they never went and we were not wont to wot of them.  I knew of them of course, everybody with an Ian Allan knew of them, and if I ever referred to them or heard them referred to it was as 47xx, or just 47s.  I never heard the term 'Night Owl', though it is a very suitable name for them, but perhaps I just wouldn't have, being where I was.  I never saw one, either in service or withdrawn, but that could be rectified soon!  

 

Were they ever known as 'Night Owls' when they were in service, or is this a feature of the modern reconstruction?  I would think no worse of it if it were, but am curious to know.

[Hilux5972]

This post from earlier in the thread should answer that question for you The Johnster.

 

Whilst helping out at the Warley Show I had the opportunity to discuss the 47XX with an ex. Oxford fireman and he confirmed that the term 'Night Owl' was often used by most Oxford men when referring to members of this class. It maybe that this was originally a localised name in much the same way as 'Tango' was to Grantham men when referring to the O2. During the weekend we were visited by some other ex.Oxford men and certainly they had known the class as 'Night Owls', owing to their nocturnal workings.

 

As the model's research has been conceived in Oxfordshire then I would imagine that the nickname has come from part of that exercise ................ not as a result of scanning photographs and drawings at night!