Heljan GWR 47xx Night Owl

[gwrrob]

It does indeed look the business and if Heljan can deliver without lapses in "finish" then this is one to savour.

 

If Heljan are to be believed this will hit the shops this month.

 

P I Nocchio

[The Great Bear]

Getting tempted, even if I think in normal operation they did not go down the line from Banbury to Oxford. Were there any route restrictions on them, other than axle load class, I'd imagine so?

Edited March 1, 2018 by The Great Bear

[peteskitchen]

Very rare I buy a new released loco nowadays, but this one I think is a must. Such a magnificent and quite unique machine.

[Karhedron]

Getting tempted, even if I think in normal operation they did not go down the line from Banbury to Oxford. Were there any route restrictions on them, other than axle load class, I'd imagine so?

They weren't allowed over the Royal Albert bridge into Cornwall IIRC. Although they were marked as Red route when built, this is partly because they predated the introduction of the double-red which came in with the Kings. IIRC some sidings were also out of bounds to them due to the wheelbase. They were certainly more restricted than a Castle which was possible one of the reasons why more were not built.

[7007GreatWestern]

They weren't allowed over the Royal Albert bridge into Cornwall IIRC. Although they were marked as Red route when built, this is partly because they predated the introduction of the double-red which came in with the Kings. IIRC some sidings were also out of bounds to them due to the wheelbase. They were certainly more restricted than a Castle which was possible one of the reasons why more were not built.

 

According to Maidment's book they were prohibited from South Wales, the North & West Route (Newport-Shrewsbury) and Cornwall. However, there were a few 'exceptions to the rule'. The prototype 4700 regularly worked a Bristol-Carmarthen freight when new. However, at that time it was still fitted with the smaller Standard No. 1 boiler which was later dispensed with. Once the Standard No. 7 boiler was fitted to the class the restriction on them increased further. During the Second World War restrictions on them were relaxed somewhat and they were allowed into Cardiff to work traffic from the docks. By 1942 they were working a Paddington-Bristol-Shrewsbury-Greenford diagram so the North & West Route restriction must have been waived. Once the war ended, the peacetime restrictions came into effect again.

 

The 47's were officially restricted to 60 mph throughout their lives, but given that they were never fitted with speedometers it's perhaps unsurprising that they were occasionally time at 70-80mph on passenger duties!

[The Stationmaster]

The official limiting points were Keyham on the West of England route, Beachley Junction on the Gloucester - Severn Tunnel Jcn route,  Patchway on the South Wales direct route, and Saltney Jcn/Chester.they were also permitted over the OWW as far as Curtnall green but prohibited between Cutnall Green and and Priestfield.   They were also allowed over one or two diversionary routes most importantly via Devizes but were prohibited from the Wycombe Branch and the Thame Branch.

 

It seems to be generally accepted that the main reason the class was not multiplied was due to the arrival of the 'Halls' which had far better route availability at very little cost in load (they were only allowed 30 tons more than a 'Hall' on milk etc trains).  incidentally quite a few of my past staff fired  them on mainline work and they appear to have been hated on passenger work as the lever reverse discouraged drivers from notching up - hence coal consumption was in the 'back breaking' class.

[Ian Hargrave]

Very rare I buy a new released loco nowadays, but this one I think is a must. Such a magnificent and quite unique machine.

With the condition that Heljan deliver it in good condition with no bits fallen off in the box,valve gear intact and motor and gear train functioning correctly.Some members of this forum have had a less than special experience to date with examples of the O2,Beyer G and 1361/1366 tanks. Get a good 'un and all is well,indeed my O2 is phenomenally powerful....otherwise......

 

Thus I will not be the first to blink,remembering that two years ago,Rails had to sort through much of their first delivery of the O2 to find an acceptable example of one of merchantable quality.A curate's egg situation if there ever was.A good example is brilliant but with regard to the 47XX,I will bide my time .Look over to the posts on the Hornby 800 IEP and you will get the drift.....We are now asked to fork out a great deal of cash for a new model so let's first ensure that for that outlay we are purchasing a treasure that is fault free of annoying issues.

 

And yes,I am looking forward to its arrival.

[gwrrob]

Very true and I'll be popping into my 'local' model emporium to try before I buy with this model. I just don't trust them [Heljan] enough yet.

[Ian Hargrave]

Very true and I'll be popping into my 'local' model emporium to try before I buy with this model. I just don't trust them [Heljan] enough yet.

And that has to be a wise course of action. Fingers crossed.

[M.I.B]

Sadly due to the nature of my work, I am not able to guarantee to be near an emporium when locos or limited run coaches are released.  And with the speed of "sell outs" these days, I have to pre-order.  Lode Star, Dukedog, 47XX, St Paddy, Colletts, railgun, WARWELL, steam crane.  Even the 6 wheeler TOAD was pre-ordered.  I will do so for the 94XX too.

 

I am not a stickler tho - my order for the WARFLAT was cancelled when I saw the price.

 

When I do get the box opened, it will get the full once over, as all my stock does, and I will have no hesitation in sending it back.

 

This is not anti Heljan - I treat all shops and suppliers the same way.  And I am never slow to hep praise and give thanks either.  Too many are ready to run things down, not so many prepared to thank those who took a risk to develop and deliver something in a niche market.

[peteskitchen]

With the condition that Heljan deliver it in good condition with no bits fallen off in the box,valve gear intact and motor and gear train functioning correctly.Some members of this forum have had a less than special experience to date with examples of the O2,Beyer G and 1361/1366 tanks. Get a good 'un and all is well,indeed my O2 is phenomenally powerful....otherwise......

 

Thus I will not be the first to blink,remembering that two years ago,Rails had to sort through much of their first delivery of the O2 to find an acceptable example of one of merchantable quality.A curate's egg situation if there ever was.A good example is brilliant but with regard to the 47XX,I will bide my time .Look over to the posts on the Hornby 800 IEP and you will get the drift.....We are now asked to fork out a great deal of cash for a new model so let's first ensure that for that outlay we are purchasing a treasure that is fault free of annoying issues.

 

And yes,I am looking forward to its arrival.

 Yes I've been stung by Heljan before. I bought a Hattons Garret when I didn't have a railway to run it on, so by the time I did it was a few years old and way out of warranty. It only completed about 2 hours of running before it started dropping apart, and since day one its had issues with the compensation in one of its "bogies" Not had any motor problems fortunately though.

[The Stationmaster]

With the condition that Heljan deliver it in good condition with no bits fallen off in the box,valve gear intact and motor and gear train functioning correctly.Some members of this forum have had a less than special experience to date with examples of the O2,Beyer G and 1361/1366 tanks. Get a good 'un and all is well,indeed my O2 is phenomenally powerful....otherwise......

 

Thus I will not be the first to blink,remembering that two years ago,Rails had to sort through much of their first delivery of the O2 to find an acceptable example of one of merchantable quality.A curate's egg situation if there ever was.A good example is brilliant but with regard to the 47XX,I will bide my time .Look over to the posts on the Hornby 800 IEP and you will get the drift.....We are now asked to fork out a great deal of cash for a new model so let's first ensure that for that outlay we are purchasing a treasure that is fault free of annoying issues.

 

And yes,I am looking forward to its arrival.

 

Ian I have no worries at all in respect of this model as the contents of Post No.411 (immediately above yours) completely rules it out of any interest for me      However if somebody was to do an Aberdare my timeline would inevitably be subject to some minor twisting.

[Ian Hargrave]

Ian I have no worries at all in respect of this model as the contents of Post No.411 (immediately above yours) completely rules it out of any interest for me      However if somebody was to do an Aberdare my timeline would inevitably be subject to some minor twisting.[/quote

 

So then,working out a timeline that should be up to c1947 ? This intrigues my own memory because on a walk with my grandfather which took us over the footbridge at Cwmbach Halt on the Vale of Neath line,there was an Aberdare waiting for the road with a coal train.I was far too young to identify it but he certainly did ......long before my first Ian Allan ABC.

I never to the best of my knowledge saw a 47XX.....unusual for me because although my domain was South Wales ....from which they were banned.....I did get around a bit.....Wolverhampton,Bristol,West of England and of course the South Wales main line to Paddington. This did include a couple of boyhood visits to Swindon Works...one in 1957 from Pontypridd hauled by City of Truro.

No sign of the elusive 47XX though Never read or heard of the term "Night Owl" until now btw.

[81C]

Saw 4700/2 in the early 60's at Southall cabbed one or the other of them as some one was pinching the number plates,

 they were dumped there when Old Oak was cleared out, they are a big loco when you are a 10 y.o.

[Clearwater]

I agree with the “wait and see” strategy. A quick browse of a Widnes based retailer shows several 1361/1366/O2 (all look new) still in stock. It feels to me that there’s less risk of stock out than on a new Hornby release

 

David

[tomparryharry]

I'm awaiting the release of this. Despite the undoubted quality that will arrive, I'm not sure about actually buying one. I'm very firmly stuck in South Wales, so the 47xx and Kings are completely off the patch. That said, I will await the big prairie & 43xx from Dapol.

 

I guess I'll stretch 'rule 1' when I see a 47xx in the flesh.

 

Cheers,

 

Ian.

[Ian Hargrave]

I'm awaiting the release of this. Despite the undoubted quality that will arrive, I'm not sure about actually buying one. I'm very firmly stuck in South Wales, so the 47xx and Kings are completely off the patch. That said, I will await the big prairie & 43xx from Dapol.I guess I'll stretch 'rule 1' when I see a 47xx in the flesh.Cheers,Ian.

Kings off the patch ? Well westwards from Cardiff yes.I believe they also paid the occasional visit to Pontypool Road but that I think would have been pre 1948.

[tomparryharry]

Kings off the patch ? Well westwards from Cardiff yes.I believe they also paid the occasional visit to Pontypool Road but that I think would have been pre 1948.

I very nearly made a snotty remark, then I realised you are quite correct. Although Cardiff is only down the road, I did decide to have a self-imposed limit to a tank locomotive-only layout. There are several reasons for this. A:- It stops me buying 'nice' big things, like Big Lizzies and B:- To try to keep a sense of perspective.

 

So, nothing bigger than a 72xx, although a 43xx is really, really stretching Rule 1. I've even considered an ROD.

 

Cheers,

 

Ian.

[M.I.B]

Sounds like a great set of parameters, although a ROD is seldom wrong

 

 

 

unless you are modelling the traditional small GWR BLT.

[tomparryharry]

Sounds like a great set of parameters, although a ROD is seldom wrong

 

 

 

unless you are modelling the traditional small GWR BLT.

I did consider just modelling Llantrisant, which is a smallish depot on the South Wales main line. However, to do it justice meant making some fairly stringent measures. Instead of Rule 1, think more Rule 0.75. So, no big tender locomotives (yet), just panniers, 56xx and 42xx, along with lots of wagons. I've already bashed my rule 1 inside a half paragraph.

 

Of course, if I put in the main line, I can include all of the 'red route' big Western stuff, along with my bank balance....

 

Cheers,

 

Ian.

[The Stationmaster]

Ian I have no worries at all in respect of this model as the contents of Post No.411 (immediately above yours) completely rules it out of any interest for me      However if somebody was to do an Aberdare my timeline would inevitably be subject to some minor twisting.[/quote

 

So then,working out a timeline that should be up to c1947 ? This intrigues my own memory because on a walk with my grandfather which took us over the footbridge at Cwmbach Halt on the Vale of Neath line,there was an Aberdare waiting for the road with a coal train.I was far too young to identify it but he certainly did ......long before my first Ian Allan ABC.

I never to the best of my knowledge saw a 47XX.....unusual for me because although my domain was South Wales ....from which they were banned.....I did get around a bit.....Wolverhampton,Bristol,West of England and of course the South Wales main line to Paddington. This did include a couple of boyhood visits to Swindon Works...one in 1957 from Pontypridd hauled by City of Truro.

No sign of the elusive 47XX though Never read or heard of the term "Night Owl" until now btw.

The last Aberdares went in the second half of 1949 and Pontypool Road was one of their final homes so quite conceivable that a very young Master Hargrave could indeed have seen one at Cwmbach Halt.

 

As it happens I saw all the 47XX (just checked my 'combined') which is I suppose remarkable if you consider the ludicrous 'night owl' idea being pushed by whoever it is who has come up with it, in reality of course they could be seen during the day on various workings and not just their Summer Saturday outings on long-distance passenger trains,  'Night owl; was very definitely a term I had never come across in spotting days (they were just '47s' to us) nor from those I knew who worked on them although if one goes on the latter I doubt that the expression 'one of those bl**dy things' would capture the imagination of the uninitiated potential customer in quite the way that something allegedly linked to their working life might.  However I suppose one of their saving graces is that they never appeared in formal complaints from Old Oak Enginemen, unlike various other GWR engines one of which has been much lauded over the years. 

 

As far as the 'Kings' are concerned some of course went to Canton in their final years and fortuitously their work included the North & West Line.

[7007GreatWestern]

As Stationmaster Mike says the 4700s were unpopular with some firemen, but not everyone was of the same opinion. In his book “Engines Good and Bad” A.W. Summers, who joined the GWR in 1923 had the following to say about them (P.64): “They usually ran at night, so the the 4700s were rarely seen in action during daylight, which may account for their relative obscurity.” He goes on to say “As a fireman ay Old Oak Common, I had many trips on these engines, and was convinced that they were excellent engines……They were not booked to work at express train speed , but once out on the  road they were able to maintain a high speed and were rarely behind schedule due to a fault with the locomotive.”

 

In his book “Firing Days - Reminiscences of a Great Western Fireman” former Didcot fireman Harold Gasson wrote that the 4700s were “a locomotive that was favourite with all Great Western enginemen”. He also wrote “They were popular with enginemen because of their sheer all out power and running qualities, but firemen found them to be “the coal minder’s friend””. 

 

Moving on to Stationmaster Mike’s point about the ease with which he was able to spot the entire class during daylight hours. The reason for this according to Maidment’s book (*)  is the changing pattern of use of the class. Prior to and during the war they were assigned to “six day turns”, which meant they were rarely available to work Summer Saturday extras. During that period they did work some regular passenger local passenger trains which were “filling in” jobs between overnight freight duties. An example he gives is a six-coach Newton Abbot to Exeter stopper which was 4700 hauled from the late 20s until the outbreak of war.  After the war Saturday holiday work became more common because some of their freight diagrams became ‘Saturdays Excepted'. Maidment goes on to say that the 1955 ALSEF strike caused the railways to lose a significant amount of business to road transport and that resulted in the 4700s being further freed for daytime work.

 

Whatever individual enginemen may have thought of them there is evidence that they were regarded very highly indeed within the company. Here are some claims from Maidment’s book that paint a stark picture of how important these locomotives were to the GWR and Western Region. In 1937 the annual average mileage of the class was about the same as the ‘Halls’, but the average tonnage hauled per mile was 40% greater for the 4700s versus the ‘Halls’. The work they did was of such importance that Collett was briefed daily on the running of the overnight “vacuum freights”. As late as 1953 the Western Region order a complete new set of No. 7 boilers to replace the original ten which were by then thirty years old. The new boilers were fitted to the entire class between 1955 and 1960. Clearly Western Region Management knew the value of these locos and believed they had many years of productive use ahead of them.

 

I don’t know who coined the term ‘Night Owl’, but it has been adopted by the Great Western Society’s group attempting to recreate one of these locos. Given that they are competing for scarce funds with projects with more “media friendly” subjects (e.g. Patriot "Unknown Warrior", P2 "Prince of Wales") it surely makes sense to do so? In the not too distant past I was a volunteer working on the restoration of a certain ex-GWR loco. It was well known in preservation circles at that time that it is harder to raise funds for a locomotive which is un-named. The 'Night Owl' sobriquet may not sit well with some enthusiasts, but then they aren't usually the ones having to raise hundreds of thousands of pounds from jumble-sales, will bequests, business sponsorship, private donations and steaming fees.

 

I hope the above is of interest.

 

Andy.

 

* “Great Western Eight Coupled Heavy Freight Locomotives”, David Maidment, Pen & Sword Transport.

[81C]

The latest new on this loco.

 

 

 

Hello

We thought you may like to know that an item you have asked us to notify when it arrives into stock, has had some information about its release date added or updated.

Heljan 4780 Class 47xx 2-8-0 "Night Owl" 4704 in GWR green with shirtbutton emblem £154.00

Our latest information from the supplier suggests this item will arrive with us between May 2018 & June 2018

Whilst we are hopeful this information is accurate, manufacturer lead times are frequently prone to be delayed.

This information is to be used as a guide only.

We hope that this email has been useful.

Regards

Retail Team
Hattons Model Railways
www.hattons.co.uk

[SimonMW]

If Heljan are to be believed this will hit the shops this month.

 

P I Nocchio

 

Email this morning from Hattons:

 

We thought you may like to know that an item you have on order with us, on order id xxxxxxxx, has had some information about its release date added or updated.

 

Heljan 4781 Class 47xx 2-8-0 'Night Owl' 4705 in Great Western green £154.00

 

Our latest information from the supplier suggests this item will arrive with us between May 2018 & June 2018

 

Whilst we are hopeful this information is accurate, manufacturer lead times are frequently prone to be delayed.

 

This information is to be used as a guide only.

 

We hope that this email has been useful.

Edited March 6, 2018 by SimonMW

[Garethp8873]

Posted on Facebook today:

 

https://www.facebook.com/hattonsmodelrailways/photos/a.290653184288454.71994.217917844895322/1721462671207491/?type=3&hc_ref=ARTDo_MdQQ54T1L-194mgRikiAXnNx31Ki-I-w5Owojqfo2MQDUrL5SbzSv-S-PyVk4&pnref=story

 

First two variations expected next week:

 

4783 - 4706 in BR Black with early emblem

4780 - 4704 in GWR green with Shirtbutton