Heljan GWR 47xx Night Owl

[M.I.B]

I had a kit built 47XX and depite the good finish i was seriously disapppointed with the haulage ability.  I don't have the experience or ability to improve such things, and no one to mentor me, so it was sold at first whiff of the Heljan model.

 

I am not the only one who was disappointed with the haulage performance of their 47XX kits I read from time to time.

 

This explains why some of us will pay the same as a kit for decent RTR. 

 

Horses for courses.

Edited March 24, 2018 by M.I.B

[coachmann]

Kits: tip from box, start on building, several weeks later it is time to paint it. Not easy for everyone. One thing people overlook when comparing kits with RTR is the ultra convenience of the latter when someone else has done all the donkey-work for us.  RTR is inexpensive.

[ndg910]

I am first and foremost a 1930s GWR modeller (although I dabble with Southern if my budget allows). The 47xx is and has been since announcement top of my wish list and ive slowly been kit building and acquiring vans for a decent representative train. BUT I will shop around for a reasonable price and might wait for some price reductions to appear. Heljan seem to be more expensive than Bachmann or Hornby but my experience of my pair of 1366 tanks has been good. These are my only Heljan locos so far as I waited for the Kernow 1361.

 

It will be interesting to see the reviews of these when they arrive and as has been noted I do hope the plates are better than the photo suggests.

 

This will fill a useful gap in my GWR fleet, only an Aberdare, Armstrong Goods, 1101 class dock tank and No17 parcels railcar to go. I look forward to see how good this model is and I hope it sells well so more GWR locos and rolling stock are brought to the market.

[Ian Hargrave]

When the O2 appeared two years ago,prices did eventually drop but everything depends on exactly how many are made in the forthcoming batch and on whether they stick or sell.I managed to buy an O2 for £105 three months after release fromThe Hobby Shop of Faversham.But then times have changed since then.One thing I think you can be reassured with is that it will have excellent haulage capability .Now we wait to see what comes out of the box.....in one piece hopefully.

[Dunsignalling]

Seeing prices like that makes me understand why so many modellers prefer to buy a kit + all the other parts and build a loco themselves. 

 

--------

 

 

I  saw a finished 47xx kitbuilt loco at the chester model fair a few years ago butshe eas going for much more than I had on me otherwise I would have bought it.

 

I think it was pdk models that had it at the time and fully finished with weathering she was up for 195.00.

 

Ok thats quite close to the near 200.00 thats being asked for the Heljan loco but when yiu consider that it was built from a kit + extras to finish construction, painting & weathering then a price like that can in my opinion be justifiable but for factory made products I'm sure many if us agree now that the prices are just getting ridiculous.

Bargain, the kit (PDK, £120) and wheels (Markits £71-95) will today set you back almost that, then you'll need a motor and gearbox that can do it justice, say another £30 to £40, so well over Heljan's price before you start.

 

If you have the time, inclination, skill and equipment, there will be many hours of pleasure to be had from construction, and yours may well end up better. If you have to pay someone to build, paint and weather it, though, you'll be laying out well over double the price of the Heljan model.

 

Isn't the real point that very few of the people who will buy a Heljan 47xx, would ever have got round to building one at all.

 

It's not compulsory to own one, if I consider it "unjustifiably" expensive, I won't buy one. Simple. (I don't, and I will  )

 

John

 

PS: As for kit-built 47xx models lacking grunt, that surely depends on what motor and gearbox is fitted plus the amount of lead packed into it.  

Edited March 25, 2018 by Dunsignalling

[Horsetan]

The kit is £120 and is listed here http://www.pdkmodels.co.uk/PL%204.htm

 

pdk 4700.jpg

Other 47s are available:

 

[mdvle]

Seeing prices like that makes me understand why so many modellers prefer to buy a kit + all the other parts and build a loco themselves. 

 

I say that because for the price of the kit + the extras to finish it the total comes to a bit more than the current rrp, however, it gives modellers the satisfaction of building a loco, getting it working and decorating it how they remember them.

There is no right and wrong, but it is all a trade off depending on what the individual prefers and how they want to spend their finite available hours in the hobby.

 

If you like building kits, then kits work.

 

If you like building a layout, then rtr frees up time for the time to build and scenic a layout.

 

I  saw a finished 47xx kitbuilt loco at the chester model fair a few years ago butshe eas going for much more than I had on me otherwise I would have bought it.

 

I think it was pdk models that had it at the time and fully finished with weathering she was up for 195.00.

 

Ok thats quite close to the near 200.00 thats being asked for the Heljan loco but when yiu consider that it was built from a kit + extras to finish construction, painting & weathering then a price like that can in my opinion be justifiable but for factory made products I'm sure many if us agree now that the prices are just getting ridiculous.

No it's not.

 

The price "a few years ago" doesn't reflect what the price today would be.

 

One of the drawbacks of getting older is that you start to judge prices (and hence value) on what you remember paying in the past and forget that the world is not static.

[M.I.B]

Bargain, the kit (PDK, £120) and wheels (Markits £71-95) will today set you back almost that, then you'll need a motor and gearbox that can do it justice, say another £30 to £40, so well over Heljan's price before you start.

 

If you have the time, inclination, skill and equipment, there will be many hours of pleasure to be had from construction, and yours may well end up better. If you have to pay someone to build, paint and weather it, though, you'll be laying out well over double the price of the Heljan model.

 

Isn't the real point that very few of the people who buy a Heljan 47xx, would ever have got round to building one at all.

 

It's not compulsory to own one, if I consider it "unjustifiably" expensive, I won't buy one. Simple. (I don't, and I will  )

 

John

 

PS: As for kit-built 47xx models lacking grunt, that surely depends on what motor and gearbox is fitted plus the amount of lead packed into it.  

When you pay £200+ for a completed kit built one and it can't pull a branch line train worth of vans, then £160 for RTR which will is "worth" it.

 

And they are retailing at £150 - £160 despite the RTR quote price.

 

£160 is fair for RTR, especially when you don't have the skills to re-gear or re-motor someone else's kit build which cost you £200 ready built, or your £180 kit and wheels/motor gearbox which you then paid £150 to have soldered up.

[gwrrob]

 

One of the drawbacks of getting older is that you start to judge prices (and hence value) on what you remember paying in the past and forget that the world is not static.

 

Like when I was 18 I could have a night on the town, a club and taxi home for less than a tenner.  

[gwrrob]

Well there's certainly one error - the footstep that is supposed to be attached to the outer ring of the smokebox directly beneath the shed plate is actually midway between the inner and outer rings:-

 

post-126-0-78751700-1521746516.jpg

 

Andy.

 

According to the Brassmaster spec there were two different designs although no date is given.

 

Copyright Brassmaster/ Martin Finney.

 

 

Variations   

Cab roof: About 1927 the cab roofs were extended at the back.

Snifting valves: position varied.

Cab spectacle windows: plated over during the late 1920s.

ATC equipment: fitted to the entire class in 1930/1.

Smokebox chin step: two different designs.

Lamp bracket: moved to smokebox door in 1934-37.

Vacuum pipe: originally tall - later a shorter pattern introduced.

Pony truck spring housing: originally uncovered but subsequently fitted with a bell shaped cover.

[Horsetan]

When you pay £200+ for a completed kit built one and it can't pull a branch line train worth of vans, then £160 for RTR which will is "worth" it.

 

And they are retailing at £150 - £160 despite the RTR quote price.

 

£160 is fair for RTR, especially when you don't have the skills to re-gear or re-motor someone else's kit build which cost you £200 ready built, or your £180 kit and wheels/motor gearbox which you then paid £150 to have soldered up.

Heljan have slightly erratic form in the motor and drivetrain department, so if this new one goes wrong then you could be looking at 160 quid worth of unhappiness.

 

I guess it all boils down to "Do you feel lucky?"

[Andy Kirkham]

The phrase isn't used in the book that was produced from those drawings. Its just captioned "The Biggest 2-8-0"

I dare say my brain just fabricated it 

[Siberian Snooper]

I have a Martin Finney one in my to do pile, the motor, gearbox and wheels were all purchased at the same time. The intention is too build it in 1925 condition, if however the Heljan one is available in the same condition, I may be tempted into having a 2nd one, RTR.

[Allegheny1600]

Other 47s are available:

 

Now that is a stunning model, chap!

How long did you spend building it, if I may ask, please? P4, I guess? Fully sprung?

If it were me, it would probably spend at least five - ten years in a drawer!

 

Back to pricing, if a little 0-6-0 saddle tank is heading towards an rrp of £150 and over, then the days of the £200+ main-line engine cannot be far away.

Cheers,

John.

[Horsetan]

Now that is a stunning model, chap!

How long did you spend building it, if I may ask, please? P4, I guess? Fully sprung?....

That one is actually 7mm, but the 4mm one is much the same.

[Staffordshire]

    Another photo of PDK 47xx  shown previously  

[The Stationmaster]

I had a kit built 47XX and depite the good finish i was seriously disapppointed with the haulage ability.  I don't have the experience or ability to improve such things, and no one to mentor me, so it was sold at first whiff of the Heljan model.

 

I am not the only one who was disappointed with the haulage performance of their 47XX kits I read from time to time.

 

This explains why some of us will pay the same as a kit for decent RTR. 

 

Horses for courses.

 

There have been several 47XX kits and the first had a whitemetal body and was sold by Western Precision Casting (although memory suggests it originally came from Cotswold).  A finished one passed through my hands some years ago in my early days on RMweb and while the body mouldings were good quality - again suggesting Cotswold quality as they produced excellent castings - it ran (or rather didn't run) like a dog with sore paws and could barely move itself let alone anything else.  

 

I sold it on, via RMweb, to a chap who claimed he wanted a static model for his dear old dad who had worked on them (why on earth the dear old dad wanted to be reminded of that I don't know?) and let the bloke have if for £60 which was about what it had cost me as part of an auction lot.  Overall it was well put together with a passable GWR green paint job and reasonable wheels (Romfords I recall) but it very obviously needed a heart transplant as its performance (lack of) was down to the motor,  I still have another loco from the same builder which had started life as a K's Dean Goods kit but was more than a little modified during building although it has a K's (early style) motor and it runs quite well so the 47XX would have been a good starting point for someone prepared to re-motor it.

 

For 200 quid RRP the Heljan one does look rather deficient in detail and what a funny little blob representing the lance cock when others are managing quite decent representations of that feature.

[bike2steam]

-and what a funny little blob representing the lance cock when others are managing quite decent representations of that feature.

 

I was waiting to see if any one mentioned it, but at least the position is marked ready for possible improvement. the front end does let it down a little. But I have to watch what I say, there's a certain little troll that doesn't like it if I say the wrong thing with model GW locos, but who cares. But if I get the chance I'll buy one on the strength of seeing members of the class at Old Oak.   

[coachmann]

There have been several 47XX kits and the first had a whitemetal body and was sold by Western Precision Casting (although memory suggests it originally came from Cotswold).  A finished one passed through my hands some years ago in my early days on RMweb and while the body mouldings were good quality - again suggesting Cotswold quality as they produced excellent castings - it ran (or rather didn't run) like a dog with sore paws and could barely move itself let alone anything else.  

 

I sold it on, via RMweb, to a chap who claimed he wanted a static model for his dear old dad who had worked on them (why on earth the dear old dad wanted to be reminded of that I don't know?) and let the bloke have if for £60 which was about what it had cost me as part of an auction lot.  Overall it was well put together with a passable GWR green paint job and reasonable wheels (Romfords I recall) but it very obviously needed a heart transplant as its performance (lack of) was down to the motor,  I still have another loco from the same builder which had started life as a K's Dean Goods kit but was more than a little modified during building although it has a K's (early style) motor and it runs quite well so the 47XX would have been a good starting point for someone prepared to re-motor it.

 

For 200 quid RRP the Heljan one does look rather deficient in detail and what a funny little blob representing the lance cock when others are managing quite decent representations of that feature.

I painted more than a few Cotswold Models 47XX 2-8-0's in the 70's and 80's. Friend Ron Charlton later moved to Scotland and renamed his company Sutherland model Casters, although I think I remember him selling the loco kits to Bill Stott at NuCast. I dont know what happened to the bus kits ( to Holt Models???). The metal was a bit on the lead side, but the patterns were first rate and produced good castings. Chassis was usually solid milled brass and the builder couldn't go wrong, but of course the old open frame motors had to be used.

[Siberian Snooper]

I have a Sutherland models one and the owner of Blue Peter model shop in Plymouth machined the chassis to take a Portescape motor and gearbox, it runs and hauls beautifully.

[81C]

I've a Cotswold built kit that needs remotoring too so the new one might save me the effort of doing it should it be up to scratch at first view it's all fixable and it's something I would decide

and ignore others who tell us there are thing wrong when they are not specific it does appear that they really don't know what they are taking about Mike, Coachmann & Ivan thanks for your imput.

[antrobuscp]

My 47xx was from a Cotswold kit. It has a solid brass milled chassis, and is fitted with an MRRC1001 motor. It will "pull a house over" despite it now being 38 years since it was completed. I will look at the Heljan model when it arrives, but I'll not part with the kit built model.

 

Colin

[81C]

My 47xx was from a Cotswold kit. It has a solid brass milled chassis, and is fitted with an MRRC1001 motor. It will "pull a house over" despite it now being 38 years since it was completed. I will look at the Heljan model when it arrives, but I'll not part with the kit built model.

 

Colin

My one is due another new motor as stated above it will be the same MRRC 5 pole one as yours which was in a SEFC King for many year and is still good.

[antrobuscp]

My one is due another new motor as stated above it will be the same MRRC 5 pole one as yours which was in a SEFC King for many year and is still good.

I can't check at the moment, but I think I have at least one new/unused motor should a replacement be necessary. I have a few unstarted kits to go at, and I did buy MRRC/MW005/Sagami and other motors for them. 

 

Whether I'll be given the time to get to build the kits, I don't know - having many of them produced RTR has removed the incentive in some cases - and I've coaches to do as well. GWR Dreadnoughts and Concertinas will be the first I think once I've finished the ones that have been in suspended animation for several years.

 

Colin

[NCB]

I painted more than a few Cotswold Models 47XX 2-8-0's in the 70's and 80's. Friend Ron Charlton later moved to Scotland and renamed his company Sutherland model Casters, although I think I remember him selling the loco kits to Bill Stott at NuCast. I dont know what happened to the bus kits ( to Holt Models???). The metal was a bit on the lead side, but the patterns were first rate and produced good castings. Chassis was usually solid milled brass and the builder couldn't go wrong, but of course the old open frame motors had to be used.

Think he kept the Cotswold brand going although the company became Sutherland Model Castors. Still have a Highland Small Ben from those days, half finished. As I recall he moved south again after a few years and that was when Nu-Cast took over the loco kits, but I might be wrong.

 

Nigel