Heljan GWR 47xx Night Owl

[tomparryharry]

I would like to see one 'in the flesh'. Photographs can be slightly misleading. I'd suggest that the real way to check the upwards deflection of the front footplate, is to measure it. The smokebox door step is a bit high. I've only got little legs! I'm not too sure about the leading buffer shanks. But, it might be me.

 

The tender rivet detail is a bit too proud, and I'd have a look to see if the fall plate is in the bottom of the box.

 

I'm must admit I'm tempted. It would still need some odds & sods to make a really good model, but so far, nothing too worrisome. Can I justify one, where they never worked? The drama of Rule 1!

 

Cheers,

 

Ian.

[7007GreatWestern]

Does the 47xx share tender design with any other model, thus allowing a better replacement to at least solve part of the problem / reduce the list of fixes?

 

It's a very standard Collett 4000 gallon tender. In the early part of their careers they ran with equally standard Churchward 3,500 gallon tenders.

 

Both have been covered by Hornby and Bachmann. The Bachmann tenders have no pickups, electrical connectors or DCC sockets within. Also the tender tank doesn't detach from the running plate.

 

The Hornby ones are far more advanced - pickup off all tender wheels, four pin interface connector to loco, DCC socket and the tender tank parts from the running plate.

 

It will be interesting to know if the Heljan body does separate from the running plate - there appears to be a seam at the bottom. 

 

An alternative idea is to simply file the tender 'back to flush' and re-rivet it with Archer's decals. At least there are no electrical issues to deal with, though probably only a practical solution if you go with the black version or intend to respray the entire loco. As it happens I have a spare 4000 gallon unit from a Railroad Hall which may be a candidate.

 

Andy.

Edited March 30, 2018 by 7007GreatWestern

[Captain Kernow]

I have a Sutherland models one and the owner of Blue Peter model shop in Plymouth machined the chassis to take a Portescape motor and gearbox, it runs and hauls beautifully.

Did you also spend extended lunch hours down there, drinking his coffee and chatting?

[Captain Kernow]

I've a Cotswold built kit

I remember building the Cotswold kit many years ago, as a commission. It was a pleasing kit, as I recall.

[bike2steam]

 Also they come as one unit i.e. the tender tank doesn't detach from the frames.

 

 

Andy.

 

Have you tried levering out the rear coupling from it's housing ? All my Bachmann tender locos ( including few remaining split-chassis locos) have had tender pick-ups added.  

[7007GreatWestern]

Have you tried levering out the rear coupling from it's housing ? All my Bachmann tender locos ( including few remaining split-chassis locos) have had tender pick-ups added.

 

Thanks bike2steam - I meant to say that tender tank doesn't detach from running plate/buffer beam/steps. They do separate from the frames however. I stand corrected!

 

In terms of tender pickups I was talking strictly about the Bachmann Collett 4000 gallon and Churchward 3,500 gallon models. Are the pickups on yours factory fitted as I don't recall either of those being issued yet with decoder/pickups? Happy to be informed.... 

 

Andy.

[bike2steam]

Thanks bike2steam - I meant to say that tender tank doesn't detach from running plate/buffer beam/steps. They do separate from the frames however. I stand corrected!

 

In terms of tender pickups I was talking strictly about the Bachmann Collett 4000 gallon and Churchward 3,500 gallon models. Are the pickups on yours factory fitted as I don't recall either of those being issued yet with decoder/pickups? Happy to be informed.... 

 

Andy.

 

No, of the Bachmann locos I have only the Stanier moguls are 'factory fitted', all others I've done myself which include Collett 4000 gallon tenders off early ( split-chassis) Modified Halls, all the others are LMS, or Standard designs.

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

... I'd have a look to see if the fall plate is in the bottom of the box...

 

 Worth looking for, but the O2 was a fall plate free zone, so there's a precedent in UK OO tender loco productions from this source. Happily it is a simple owner modification, and rather necessary as the loco to tender drawbar is as basic as they come and needs all the concealment it can get...

[Dunsignalling]

I must say that the rivets do look rather overdone, but before I wade in with any comments about whether it looks "right" or not overall, on the basis of the couple of pics so far posted, I'd like to know the focal length of the lens used to take them

 

John

[adb968008]

Blimey the model is being panned yet it’s not even in our hands yet.

[cctransuk]

Blimey the model is being panned yet it’s not even in our hands yet.

 

This model has all the hallmarks of one which, if you are prepared to do a bit of work on it, should be able to be picked up at a significant discount in a few months time.

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

[Ian Hargrave]

This model has all the hallmarks of one which, if you are prepared to do a bit of work on it, should be able to be picked up at a significant discount in a few months time.

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

Which is exactly what happened with the O2.

[81C]

Which is exactly what happened with the O2.

 Heljan aren't the best buildier on the block as we know, so lets see what comes out of the box next week the 0-6-0 tank engines

  I own were fine they got slaughtered before they were released and that was mainly by the armchair modeller who I bet couldn't

  put an Airfix kit together.

Edited March 30, 2018 by 81C

[SWTDriver]

Having seen the photos on line I have to admit that I will reserve judgement on it until it is delivered to me, I've opted for the black British Railways version. However judging by the photos it looks poor in the extreme, cylinders too small, smokebox door wrong, numberplates wrong size, buffers seem too small, the motion bracket support seems too big.

 

The more I look at it the more I think I'm going to be looking at the returns policy or will be getting a whole load of replacement fittings to put things right.

 

Please let me be wrong.

[Siberian Snooper]

Did you also spend extended lunch hours down there, drinking his coffee and chatting?

 

This was before Martin Walsh was running Blue Peter, the Scott-Browne's, I think they were called.

[TerrySVR]

Could someone put a list of areas that need addressing so us lesser mortals can make a decision about wether to buy one or not? Such a shame that this long awaited model isn't to same standard as most other manufacturers.

 

Terry

[Forester]

Having seen the photos on line I have to admit that I will reserve judgement on it until it is delivered to me, I've opted for the black British Railways version. However judging by the photos it looks poor in the extreme, cylinders too small, smokebox door wrong, numberplates wrong size, buffers seem too small, the motion bracket support seems too big.

 

The more I look at it the more I think I'm going to be looking at the returns policy or will be getting a whole load of replacement fittings to put things right.

 

Please let me be wrong.

 

This Night Howling is getting silly.

 

Kind of mob lynching.

 

It's RTR and it's the only 47xx you're going to get RTR. Take it or leave it.

 

The rest of us are pleased to have it, (exaggerated) imperfections and all.

[Methuselah]

Overall, it looks pretty good. The perfectionists folks can fix it - if they have the skills. In the real world, 90% of kits that get made don't have anywhere near that level of finish, and many end-up a blobby mess. I've got one on order. If it runs OK, I'll look at titivating it. Still much less work than a kit.

[GWR8700]

What a shame, I won't be rushing out to buy one at that price.  I might be tempted when discounts are offered

[cctransuk]

Overall, it looks pretty good. The perfectionists folks can fix it - if they have the skills. In the real world, 90% of kits that get made don't have anywhere near that level of finish, and many end-up a blobby mess. I've got one on order. If it runs OK, I'll look at titivating it. Still much less work than a kit.

 

No dispute with any of that - but it does rankle when, with a bit more research and sophistication in tooling, it could have been up to the Hornby Duchess standard.

 

There's a 'That'll do' attitude still prevalent amongst certain producers, that is not reflected in the prices that they charge.

 

When errors and shortcuts are so evident in photos, it's no wonder that some prospective purchasers voice their disappointment in no uncertain terms.

 

Fine - if it doesn't bother you, go ahead and purchase; those with higher standards will probably not purchase unless there are significant discounts in due course.

 

That will result in a slow turnover and lower profits for retailers; it could also discourage Heljan from tackling steam loco subjects in future; we are all losers if that happens.

 

Heljan seem to be able to produce decent diesel locos when they try - what's the problem with steam locos?

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

Edited March 31, 2018 by cctransuk

[Clearwater]

No dispute with any of that - but it does rankle when, with a bit more research and sophistication in tooling, it could have been up to the Hornby Duchess standard.

 

There's a 'That'll do' attitude still prevalent amongst certain producers, that is not reflected in the prices that they charge.

 

When errors and shortcuts are so evident in photos, it's no wonder that some prospective purchasers voice their disappointment in no uncertain terms.

 

Fine - if it doesn't bother you, go ahead and purchase; those with higher standards will probably not purchase unless there are significant discounts in due course.

 

That will result in a slow turnover and lower profits for retailers; it could also discourage Heljan from tackling steam loco subjects in future; we are all losers if that happens.

 

Heljan seem to be able to produce decent diesel locos when they try - what's the problem with steam locos?

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

I’m not sure I follow your argument John. If it does sell, and doesn’t get discounted and hence “discourages” Heljan, then Heljan could be perfectly entitled to draw the conclusion that it was good enough for the market and produce any future models to a similar, lower standard. I don’t think we are all losers if a manufacturer opts to exit rather than produce inaccurate models. I’d rather the market showed that high fidelity, robust, well engineered models see better and make manufacturers more money.

 

For me, I’m waiting to see a professional review.

 

David

Edited March 31, 2018 by Clearwater

[The Stationmaster]

Could someone put a list of areas that need addressing so us lesser mortals can make a decision about wether to buy one or not? Such a shame that this long awaited model isn't to same standard as most other manufacturers.

 

Terry

 

BR smokebox numberplate looks terrible - solution is to buy and fit an etched one (need to check the height as well but that might be due to the size being wrong.

Cabside numberplates look terrible - solution is to buy and fit etched ones.

 

Thus far typical changes to make on r-t-r locos although in this case the supplied items really do look awful.

 

Smokebox footstep in the wrong place for 'later period' (I'm not entirely sure when they were moved to the lower position but as it comes the step is correct for the engines in early condition).

Steam lance cock on the smokebox front is a joke pimple - need to buy and fit a proper replacement (Alan Gibson has been suggested as a source).

The 'bell shape dome above the pony truck pivot is not the right shape shape when compared with prototype photos.

The footsteps up from the front platform to the running plate are definitely incorrect for at least some engines as the support fillets have been greatly exaggerated (probably for moulding reasons) but they won't show from most viewing angles anyway.

The angle of the steam pipes on the example shown in this thread doesn't look quite right but that might well be an assembly issue.

The buffer plank support struts curve the wrong way at both ends but it is only really noticeable at the bottom where they meet the footplate (presumably done that way to ease assembly).

Probably - as always on r-t-r engines - a good idea to replace the pony truck wheels but not essential (unless they run badly).

Check fitting of handrail knobs - the example posted might just be a bad one.

 

The curve of the handrail between the sides and into the curve over the smokebox is not right - most people wouldn't bother to correct it and it would be a real faff to do.

The oil pipe cover between the boiler cladding and smokebox looks slightly undernourished but needs to be checked once you get a sample in your hands as photos can be misleading.

Various faults on the firebox - the leading mudhole door cover at the top appears to be slightly too low (it should be on the radius of the curve) and memory suggest the shape isn't quite right either; the angle of the upper row of washout plugs looks a bit too shallow but that might be due to the exaggerated rims. - which remind me of the similarly exaggerated rims on the Mainline 63XX.  However the firebox 'shoulders' where it joins the boiler look to be spot on.

The whistles appear to be the same size - they should be two different sizes. As far as I can scertain teh engines don't seem to have ever received whistle shields but you never know!

 

Note that the pipework below the cab end of the ejector pipe did vary a bit from engine to engine and from time to time but at least one pipe appears to be incorrectly routed - needs to be checked against photos if you're bothered.

 

As already mentioned the rivet heads are somewhat prominent!

 

The cylinders definitely look too small but that has probably been done for clearance reasons and might not be worth bothering about.  I get an impression that something doesn't look as it should about the overall appearance of the engine but this might be due to the eye picking up the underdone cylinders and the firebox errors and of course the angle etc of photos of the model so difficult to form an objective opinion on this without seeing one in the flesh.  There's also something not quite right about the covers over the clack valves alongside the safety valve cover - I get the impression they might be a bit too large and there's no 'straight' section of sv cover visible above them - again something which might mislead the eye about the overall appearance.

 

As ever with an r-t-r model it will be a compromise between what you might expect and what you get for the price/depth of research and the extent to which you want details to be as near spot on as reduction to a small scale will permit.  In my view compared with the execution of detail on some recent r-t-r releases this one doesn't quite hit the spot; as I've previously said it's not quite where we would expect a contemporary r-t-r release to be, especially when you consider it has been re-worked (reportedly) from early EP etc examples.  The 47XX were always a relatively homogenous class but minor details changed over the years and are best checked from reliably dated photos - pipe runs below the cab end of the ejector pipe and the type of buffers fitted are things to watch out for.

[The Stationmaster]

No dispute with any of that - but it does rankle when, with a bit more research and sophistication in tooling, it could have been up to the Hornby Duchess standard.

 

There's a 'That'll do' attitude still prevalent amongst certain producers, that is not reflected in the prices that they charge.

 

When errors and shortcuts are so evident in photos, it's no wonder that some prospective purchasers voice their disappointment in no uncertain terms.

 

Fine - if it doesn't bother you, go ahead and purchase; those with higher standards will probably not purchase unless there are significant discounts in due course.

 

That will result in a slow turnover and lower profits for retailers; it could also discourage Heljan from tackling steam loco subjects in future; we are all losers if that happens.

 

Heljan seem to be able to produce decent diesel locos when they try - what's the problem with steam locos?

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

 

Their 'problem'. (if indeed it is a problem) with steam outline appears to be a lack of depth of research which results in the ship being spoilt for lack of a ha'porth of tar in terms of detail.  Simple as that - or they don't wish to get involved in higher tooling costs.  Quite why it happens is known only to Heljan and is open to conjecture - informed or otherwise - but at least they seem to be consistent in this respect.

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

...Heljan seem to be able to produce decent diesel locos when they try - what's the problem with steam locos?

 I am well satisfied with the four Heljan diesel models that suit my interest, BTH and NBL type 1, BRCW and EE type 2, all of them pilot scheme BoBo form, two of which I would rate close to the NRM's DP1. So no evidence of inability in the research, tooling or production departments there.

 

The O2/3 was messy, needed work, (but a damn sight easier than building a kit) and along with the couple of friend's B-Gs I have seen, it points to steam not being Heljan's metier. As we all know Heljan was built up around a plastic injection mould tooling and production expertise: mechanisms were at one time contracted out: but for the twin bogie traction other than the cast block, the mechanism structure was based on moulded parts, Heljan's area of expertise.

 

It is a very different mechanism design and construction technique for steam locos, and majorly based around die cast parts. To say that the design is dated and user disassembly unfriendly is the least of it: and those same difficulties will be present in design of body parts to clothe the mechanism, all the way through to making a  sound production job for the assembly line. I suspect these aspects are where the resources and energy Heljan can bring to the project are getting absorbed, to the detriment of the end product.

 

Just one man's view; but I may claim a fair amount of developed expertise in competitive comparison of mass production technique.

 

 

 

...Probably - as always on r-t-r engines - a good idea to replace the pony truck wheels but not essential (unless they run badly).

Maybe... What I know about the correct form of Swindon wheelsets is minimal, but I will say that on the O2, the pony truck wheelset was probably the best single component on the model! Correctly represented the form, and given a very fine flange in OO RTR terms (0.47mm deep on my example) a significant enhancement for a wheel that in reality was only 2'8" nominal, in maintaining a correct 'unusually small diameter' appearance.

Edited March 31, 2018 by 34theletterbetweenB&D

[coachmann]

Mike the Station gives a pretty full list there and how buyers go to ticking off the list while they 'correct' things is up to them. We have a wide spectrum of folk on RMweb from fine builders to those whose only contribution to RMweb is moaning, from what I can see. I can build locos, but it doesn't mean I would attend to everything on this or any other RTR loco. It would not be stationary long enough for me to sit studying the faults. Indeed, in accepting the narrow gauge appearance of everything to do with 00 compared with 0 gauge, I have accepted compromises.

 

I wouldn't mind one especially as a real 47XX is under construction at Llangollen and will undoubtedly visit Carrog in around four years time.

Edited March 31, 2018 by coachmann