Are small layouts really cheaper at exhibitions?

[bike2steam]

I'm not sure what the term '- for too little return' refers to,

Perhaps I should have said 'appreciation (one day shows tend to be more family orientated than for enthusiasts), bookings( reason as before) to other shows, relaxation, time to look at other layouts, and wind down', 'cause before you know it - it's time to pack up again.

[PaulRhB]

.

As for the implication that we would include too many team members so that they could get into the show for free - well a little more thought would make this idea obviously ridiculous. Exhibiting involves giving up a whole weekend, often starting at Friday lunchtime or getting up very early on Saturday morning and not getting back home until late on the Sunday night. Loading and unloading the van twice and spending a large chunk of the weekend on your feet, this is tiring stuff. Don't misunderstand - I enjoy doing shows and when it becomes a chore I will stop but it can't be undertaken casually and any operator that I had on my team who was only interested in getting in for free wouldn't be asked again.

 

Exhibiting must be taken seriously - too many things can go wrong for a casual approach to be appropriate - but that doesn't mean it can't be fun.

 

 

I don't think any exhibitors would carry freeloaders but some do seem to find it difficult to understand how much it costs to put them all up at a show. It's very difficult especially with a club layout to pick who doesn't go and some try to include everyone but then find they don't get invited due to cost. The layouts that do get out obviously meet the organisers criteria

[ColinK]

To add to the debate, while I only exhibit my layouts two or three times a year, if it is reasonably local, I do not ask for expenses, because I enjoy putting something back into the hobby. But a unlimited supply of tea and a bite to eat at lunchtime are important.

[chaz]

To add to the debate, while I only exhibit my layouts two or three times a year, if it is reasonably local, I do not ask for expenses, because I enjoy putting something back into the hobby. But a unlimited supply of tea and a bite to eat at lunchtime are important.

 

Would I be right in assuming that your layout will fit in your car? If Dock Green were small enough to do that I might well do what you do for local shows but when we did move it by car it needed three cars (two of them large estate cars) to do it, and it wasn't easy to load and unload. A van is essential.

[chaz]

I don't think any exhibitors would carry freeloaders but some do seem to find it difficult to understand how much it costs to put them all up at a show. It's very difficult especially with a club layout to pick who doesn't go and some try to include everyone but then find they don't get invited due to cost. The layouts that do get out obviously meet the organisers criteria

 

Quite so. The largest team we have employed for Dock Green was five - not unreasonable for a big two day show? We took four to the recent Portsmouth one-day show. At a pinch we could manage with three but this would be much harder work and I would not be prepared to use this small a team for a full weekend. I take your point about layouts that are too expensive not being invited - something we all have to live with.

[MartinWales]

Even a fairly small BLT like Kinmundy requires 4 operators over a weekend show, so I can fully appreciate the dilemmas that you may face in the choice of inviting specific layouts

 

That said every time I have managed to attend I have always come away inspired to do better from viewing the quality layouts present!  

[newbryford]

Even a fairly small BLT like Kinmundy requires 4 operators over a weekend show,

 

So that's four operators plus you then ............?

 

Cheers,

Mick

[Penlan]

Perhaps I should have said 'appreciation (one day shows tend to be more family orientated than for enthusiasts), bookings( reason as before) to other shows, relaxation, time to look at other layouts, and wind down', 'cause before you know it - it's time to pack up again.

Agree with you, relaxation for the operator's, let alone the owner, is important.

I take my team of operator's out on a Friday night for a meal etc., after we've set up.

I pay for the meal as an appreciation of them coming to help me.....

...... it sets the mood for the weekend, their happy, I'm broke.

[Penlan]

So that's four operators plus you then ............?

 

Cheers,

Mick

Naughty, but I understand there's an element of truth.....  

.

Actually not so, when I was at an exhibition earlier this year,

Martin was with the layout well over 70% of the time.

[RJS1977]

 

I suppose RAILEX is different in that I invite layouts on merit and quality so most do need to travel and require accommodation, rather than use local club layouts or show fillers that are cheaper but not so inspiring.

 

I'm sure most exhibition managers would like to be in that situation. Unfortunately those of us who manage the smaller shows - with often a fairly small floor area - find that the number of traders we are able to handle is limited (especially when trying not to book two traders who sell similar items and end up competing with each other). Consequently the amount of known income is also limited.

 

There are many excellent van-sized layouts I would love to invite but unfortunately the money just isn't there to do it.

 

Richard

[ColinK]

Would I be right in assuming that your layout will fit in your car? If Dock Green were small enough to do that I might well do what you do for local shows but when we did move it by car it needed three cars (two of them large estate cars) to do it, and it wasn't easy to load and unload. A van is essential.

Yes, I built the baseboards to fit my vehicle.

[vitalspark]

As a member of the Sottish region Study Group I am involved with exhibiting 'Alloa' which is a large layout but large our not we are I am delighted to say invited to more shows than we can accept.

Reason?..the layout is beautifully built to fine scale standards and with all signals operational and a constant flow of traffic..entirely unprototypical for Alloa of course..the public love it.

 

Moving the thing and setting up is a major consideration for the small group and as there are usually several hours journey times each end of the weekend we only can attend a max of two shows a year so doesn't feel like we have been denied but we will never know.

At the recent Warley show we were literally three deep all weekend and were awarded the Bachmann cup for best 4mm exhibit plus an award for best signalled layout which we were truly surprised but delighted to accept given the quality of layouts in competition.

It does suggest though that modelling a large 30ft plus train set is no barrier to popularity if executed correctly.

 

Alloa has featured in Model Railway Journal..Hornby Mag and BRM and has delighted us with numerous awards..reason I mention all this is that if a layout is popular then its size should never be a barrier for an exhibition manager. 

 

Yes we have a team of eight and require a Van and two cars but layouts like this are definitely crowd pullers and any exhibition manager that denies his show a big featured layout like this.. or Gresley Beat...Lime St..Dewsbury.. etc etc..is short sighted to the extreme.

These layouts are what the public generally want and I back this up by suggesting notice is tasken of the crowds that are constantly around them.

 

Yes we also need exquisitely modelled more practical sized layouts just as we need rtr easily built layouts that less experienced modellers can identify with..but its the big ones that draw the hard core crowds..they have to be both big and fine scale of course but there are plenty around.

So.. to short sighted exhibition mangers don't kid yourself that small is better because you need both…but you need the big ones first.. choose carefully then build the show round them.

 

 

Dave

[Les1952]

I currently have two exhibition layouts on the go. 

 

Furtwangen Ost is a five-foot double roundy-roundy (trams and trains) that needs two people on the job most of the time.  Being a five-footer I feel I daren't ask for four operators so we go as a team of three and end up exhausted as the layout (particularly the tramway) requires a deal of concentration.

 

Hawthorn Dene is a ten-foot roundy-roundy with three circuits but only two controllers, largely so we don't exhaust the supply of different trains too quickly.  This one runs with a team of four (two on and two off).

 

Each travels to a show by car.  To a local show that is four return trips for either layout (Fri one car with layout and two people to set up, Sat one car with three or four people, Sun two cars as only two can travel with the layout).  That means for a local show the difference is feeding and watering an extra operator for the larger layout.

 

For a stay-away show each is two cars and the difference in cost is the extra operator.

 

However, both layouts were designed to travel in the same car.  Any larger than Hawthorn Dene won't go into my Picasso and would need a van hire- adding £144 to the cost just to hire the van.

 

Perhaps the real difference is distance travelled. One big local layout might actually cost the same as one small layout travelling a distance...

 

Just a few thoughts.

Les

[ELTEL]

As a member of the Sottish region Study Group I am involved with exhibiting 'Alloa' which is a large layout but large our not we are I am delighted to say invited to more shows than we can accept.

Reason?..the layout is beautifully built to fine scale standards and with all signals operational and a constant flow of traffic..entirely unprototypical for Alloa of course..the public love it.

 

Moving the thing and setting up is a major consideration for the small group and as there are usually several hours journey times each end of the weekend we only can attend a max of two shows a year so doesn't feel like we have been denied but we will never know.

At the recent Warley show we were literally three deep all weekend and were awarded the Bachmann cup for best 4mm exhibit plus an award for best signalled layout which we were truly surprised but delighted to accept given the quality of layouts in competition.

It does suggest though that modelling a large 30ft plus train set is no barrier to popularity if executed correctly.

 

Alloa has featured in Model Railway Journal..Hornby Mag and BRM and has delighted us with numerous awards..reason I mention all this is that if a layout is popular then its size should never be a barrier for an exhibition manager. 

 

Yes we have a team of eight and require a Van and two cars but layouts like this are definitely crowd pullers and any exhibition manager that denies his show a big featured layout like this.. or Gresley Beat...Lime St..Dewsbury.. etc etc..is short sighted to the extreme.

These layouts are what the public generally want and I back this up by suggesting notice is tasken of the crowds that are constantly around them.

 

Yes we also need exquisitely modelled more practical sized layouts just as we need rtr easily built layouts that less experienced modellers can identify with..but its the big ones that draw the hard core crowds..they have to be both big and fine scale of course but there are plenty around.

So.. to short sighted exhibition mangers don't kid yourself that small is better because you need both…but you need the big ones first.. choose carefully then build the show round them.

 

 

Dave

A great team with a great layout, and Alloa was a great draw at Stafford

 

See you soon guys

 

Terry

[mark axlecounter]

I took two layouts down to fareham a few years ago. I have a box trailer what can hold 2 small layouts and with a car with 4 operators . I know There are a few clubs what do it this way to lower costs for the exhibition managers.

 

Mark

[vitalspark]

Thanks Terry we all enjoyed Stafford..it is a great show and a credit to the organisers.

 

Dave

[Benjamin Brady]

Good Morning all,

 

I am part of the group that exhibits Hasssell Harbour Bridge, but over the years we have been finding that we do not get to as many shows as we used to with the old layout, Hassell Rode. There has been speculation within the group as to why we do not get out and our main concern is that we are now to big for an exhibition, now having to hire a 7 1/2 ton truck just to get us to shows, also we now have to take eight operators with us where we used to only need 6. However this said we are a 360 layout and we have though about this before with the fact that really what exhibition mangers are getting for their money are two large layouts each needing four operators surly bring the cost of the layout right down, and making us more econimcal that a few smaller layouts. Reading this topic space also seems to be the issue but at our local show in Alsager we can erect the layout in the middle in the hall even though this does take a lot of the hall up it offers a nice show piece for a loacl show and the outside of the hall can be used for smaller layouts and traders.

 

But with this all said, this can only be part of deciding what layout you bring to a show and the modelling and operation have to be taken into consideration and maybe this is another of our problems but this can be left for another topic .

 

Benjamin

[Suzie]

Perhaps the time has come when listing exhibitions in magazines needs to lean away from listing the number of layouts present to listing the total scenic frontage or some other more meaningful metric as to what is going to be presented. Having attended an exhibition boasting 25 layouts I was somewhat disappointed to be presented with predominantly what was little more than a series of dioramas where the largest layout had only a 12' scenic frontage.

 

Being involved with a layout that is just a mere 16' x 8' with a scenic frontage of 32' which is very very compact for what it is I was surprised to hear 'We would not have it at our exhibition because it is too big' even though at the time there would have been zero expenses because it fitted in the two operator's cars and was local, so there is definitely a feeling among exhibition managers that even medium sized layouts cannot be accommodated because of a need to keep the quantity of layouts up rather than any other consideration which puts at a premium the higher costs of smaller layouts.

 

As much as we might despise the rise of the magazine led exhibitions they might be the only salvation of being able to see larger layouts where the bigger venues can accommodate enough layouts to get the layout number count up to an acceptable level while including larger layouts. We are now getting in to the realms of some layouts costing in the order of £1500 or more expenses so without the big magazine exhibitions they would not be seen and modular might become an academic exercise as far as the paying public are concerned.

[cromptonnut]

Perhaps the time has come when listing exhibitions in magazines needs to lean away from listing the number of layouts present to listing the total scenic frontage or some other more meaningful metric as to what is going to be presented.

 

An interesting thought.

 

25 layouts does not mean "25 good layouts".  It's like the second hand car with "one careful previous owner" (and 10 complete nutters)

 

Of course, "big" does not always mean "good" any more than "small" means "bad" - we've all seen examples of both on here.  But I think there is, as you may have identified, a certain tendancy to "big up" the amount of layouts as an attraction by giving the impression of it being better value for money (particularly if there are competing shows on the same day within travelling distance of each other).

[ELTEL]

An interesting thought.

 

25 layouts does not mean "25 good layouts".  It's like the second hand car with "one careful previous owner" (and 10 complete nutters)

 

Of course, "big" does not always mean "good" any more than "small" means "bad" - we've all seen examples of both on here.  But I think there is, as you may have identified, a certain tendancy to "big up" the amount of layouts as an attraction by giving the impression of it being better value for money (particularly if there are competing shows on the same day within travelling distance of each other).

That's the main reason why at Stafford we list all the layouts attending and where ever possible photographs, it is also a club unwritten rule that any layouts booked to appear at Stafford will have been viewed by one of the exhibtion team.

 

 

The only model railway magazine that lists the layouts attending is the Railway Modeller although all the magazines receive a pack from me each year with a list of all layouts attending and scale/gauge the other exception is Rail Express who will normally list diesel & electric layouts.

 

We also advertise with all of the magazines.Duncan Models

 

 

Eltel

[PaulRhB]

I think number of layouts is a simple thing to attract attention on a flyer and says there is variety. Listing the layouts by type plus name and preferably a floor plan on the website is far better than saying 267ft of scenic frontage for those concerned about such things and it's likely going to confuse some punters into thinking its a massive layout

[David Bigcheeseplant]

Our website lists and includes photos of all the layouts we have at RAILEX, we hope this appeals to people and will want to make them visit, we don't include sizes of the layout on the publicity unless there is a good reason, as I have said before it is the quality we book not the number of layouts.

 

Going back to the point of this topic even the smallest of layouts will require at least one operator and if they require accommodation one room. A larger layout on average needs 6-8 operators so at this point it costs 2-3 times amount of a small layout but at this point may well take 10-12 times the floor space.

 

David

[Barry O]

 

As much as we might despise the rise of the magazine led exhibitions they might be the only salvation of being able to see larger layouts where the bigger venues can accommodate enough layouts to get the layout number count up to an acceptable level while including larger layouts. We are now getting in to the realms of some layouts costing in the order of £1500 or more expenses so without the big magazine exhibitions they would not be seen and modular might become an academic exercise as far as the paying public are concerned.

The larger clubs can still accommodate the odd big layout at their shows.. but not more than one.  The magazine shows seem a bit hit and miss in the way they "organise" layouts and they too need to cover their expenses so can be a bit tight with layout expenses and accommodation. They don't seem to pull together all of the "big" layouts in one place so that doesn't seem to be a way ahead.

 

I always tried to balance the layouts at our show by looking at quality layouts which were as diverse as possible - to give the paying attendees to see good quality layouts across a number of scales, gauges, periods and locations. Its more a case of finding layouts which are something different (how many decent LMS/LM layouts are out and about? or Blue diesels or lines with overhead knitting etc?)

 

Baz

[David Bigcheeseplant]

If

The larger clubs can still accommodate the odd big layout at their shows.. but not more than one.  Baz

If you came to RAILEX this year you would have seen as you walked in the door Dewsbury Midland, Alloa and Bath Green Park all within eyeshot, the previous year we had Bucks Hill, Heyside and Fencehouse all being around 35-50 feet long. we have always prided ourselves getting more than one big layout each year, and we are neither a commercial show just a local club who try to put a good show on.

 

The large layouts I would not invite are those which are glorified train sets with the flat baseboard syndrome.

 

David

[Les1952]

Oddly enough the two standout layouts for me at Warley this year were St Ruth and Kepier Colliery- and each for different reasons.

 

However neither of these is what could be called a large layout.  I seem to remember Kepier Colliery is about 12 to 15 foot and St Ruth a little smaller.

 

I have seen Hassell Harbour Bridge a number of times, and have been very impressed, but only when able to get far enough back to appreciate it- York did a good job in this respect.  At Spalding the gangway alongside it was narrow and people were unable to get a good overall view.  The size of the bridge deserves better than to only be viewed that close you can count the rivets on a single plate without being able to see beyond the one next to it.   Indeed the poor guy with the small German layout opposite hardly got a look in, and his layout was also very worthy of attention.

 

A couple of small layouts may be no cheaper than a big one, but there is such a thing as too big for the space available- either because the hall isn't that big or because there is a lot else to go into the space as well.   When it comes to layouts at an exhibition the phrase that comes most readily to my mind is "horses for courses".

 

Les

 

PS _ Hassell Harbour Bridge WOULD have been well displayed at RMWeb Live, because there was sufficient space to set it off properly IMHO.