Are small layouts really cheaper at exhibitions?

[Pacific231G]

If

If you came to RAILEX this year you would have seen as you walked in the door Dewsbury Midland, Alloa and Bath Green Park all within eyeshot, the previous year we had Bucks Hill, Heyside and Fencehouse all being around 35-50 feet long. we have always prided ourselves getting more than one big layout each year, and we are neither a commercial show just a local club who try to put a good show on.

 

The large layouts I would not invite are those which are glorified train sets with the flat baseboard syndrome.

 

David

Interesting though that while I certainly admired Bath Green Park, the layouts at RAILEX that got most of my attention this year were The End of the Line, Bradfield Gloucester Square, Earl's Court and above all Tower Pier which Geoff Ashdown never even intended as an exhibtion layout. These were all layouts that I'd seen several times before and look forward to seeing again. While the large layouts may provide public entertainment, it always seems to be relatively small ones (OK Bradfield isn't that small but it is compact) that provide the most inspiration; maybe that's just me though. 

 

Listing the layouts on your website with photos is excellent and I wish more organisers would follow your example. The worst thing, apart from websites that never get around to listng layouts at all- "twelve quality layouts" really doesn't cut it-  are those, often from more local clubs, that just provide a list of layout names and scales. Some of those might be layouts I'd actually enjoy and that are not well known "on the circuit"  but I'm not driving for an hour just to find out. The exhibtion manager must know what he's booked sufficiently to provide a short description at least so why keep it a secret?

[Judge Dread]

Are small layouts cheaper than large ones?

In essence I see this as a rehash of a very old question. Sure it’s cost that’s the real problem for any exhibition manager. Shows are put on to realise any club a boost to funds. In the past I have seen layout owners try and make a “living” showing their handiwork or at-least get subsidised for their financial outlay and brag about it. I should say here and now that I do not wish to point the finger at any person or organisation.

Getting on to the exhibition scene will always be the difficult part especially if your handiwork is, shall we say, not top grade. That’s where the local club comes in and thereby being able to get advice from their exhibition manager. A variety of layouts should be sort by that person and you will only get an invite because you are local and therefore will be seen to have no real costs. At such a show, two things should happen. You will look around at other persons efforts and realise that perhaps certain modifications should by made to your handiwork. Secondly, the general public will look at all of the layouts and categorise them as ones they would like to build and those they could build. Everyone has a certain skill level; if every one could produce to the same standards then all the layouts would be the same. Variety of skills is needed along with variety of everything else, gauges, time spans and locations.

Now speaking strictly for myself, I always realised that cost would have to be the first deciding factor in getting an invite to any show and subject matter would be the second one. I could never use our family car for transport and although my wife has travelled and operated layouts that has only occurred three times in the couple of hundred or so shows I have done with several layouts both club and personal. People should also realise that van hire can be fraught with difficulties ranging from no van available on the day, to a substitute offered which was three sizes bigger than needed and that meant it used half as much fuel again. Also there was the van I had to return within two miles of collecting it because of a loud knocking noise as it ran over every bump in the road. This was traced to a rear shock absorber hanging off and I had to go underneath to help fix it. I should also mention the drag of after driving home possibly a couple hundred miles, then you have to unload and then you have to return the hire van and get yourself back home.

My solution to this problem was to go out and buy my own van and charge for its fuel plus a little to help maintain it. This meant that I dropped off my operator at his house and upon arrival home, the van went into my garage and I shut the door. I unloaded it the following day alone. The only down side was whereas a hire van would allow three of us to travel, my own van only seated the two of us. Where possible a good friend of mine, living in the southlands, would drive to shows or use a “privilege” rail ticket to make up the number.

In fact when one of my layouts was invited to Holland, he paid his own airfare to be a part of the team. A fourth operator travelled with the other two by ferry and onwards by train. Yours truly didn’t go at all, banned because I had just being diagnosed as requiring a heart operation and ordered onto “light duties”.

Certain persons may think that these wanderings are a veiled request for invites for my present layout, but as usual, they would be wrong. My heart problem has returned and I am once more on “light duties”.

If you want an invite to a certain show you must present an honest request for expenses and use the same number of operators you have always used, just as you should present a correct set of dimensions for space in the exhibition hall. If your request is queried then you have two ways to go, make up the difference yourself or don’t go!  Finally if you are turned down, don’t travel the world complaining about the injustice of it as you may get an invite next year if you hold your peace and say nowt.

P.S. You can judge for yourself my efforts by using the link below.

[Suzie]

...However neither of these is what could be called a large layout.  I seem to remember Kepier Colliery is about 12 to 15 foot and St Ruth a little smaller...

 

Quite my point, they are not large but bigger than some exhibitions will consider. The write up for St Ruth says 16'.

[cromptonnut]

The exhibtion manager must know what he's booked sufficiently to provide a short description at least so why keep it a secret?

 

On the club's own website - no excuse.  Assuming they have one.

 

In magazine listings, space is often limited and the magazine itself will edit down the information already provided so in some cases it's not the club's fault.

 

But when RMWeb and UKModelshops both offer free exhibition listings with (more or less) whatever space you require, there really is no excuse. 

 

In this day and age, any club attempting to hold an exhibition that doesn't have at least one member "internet savvy" enough to take on the responsibility of making the stuff available online somewhere (even if it's only a very rudimentary Facebook page)  probably isn't worth worrying about as they aren't likely to be around for much longer.

[PaulRhB]

As David pointed out big layouts don't have to be massively expensive and beyond a club shows reach. What helps is establishing a reputation for quality which means people come from further afield knowing its worth the journey. Our own club show has managed 3-4 really large layouts and the committee is fully aware that getting something different means people look forward to it. Repeating cheap layouts just means people feel they've seen it all before and don't bother going again. One or two feature layouts at a local show can bring people in and discover new layouts and make a small show very popular by reputation. I'm thinking such gems as Larkrail where you know that despite it being small you will get high quality modelling and something entertaining. Railex has built a reputation and no doubt took a pretty big financial risk initially but now by maintaining the quality can bet on a similar amount of income to justify the costs of feature layouts from further away.

Building the reputation is the hard part but forums and websites are very good at hitting a wider market if you feature details and photos to entice people in. Be prepared though to take a sensible financial risk and over a few years you can quickly get much bigger numbers through the door but equally don't assume you can get away with 'filler' and it not be noticed. With our club show I wouldn't take my layout each time to save them costs as it would be, that's always here!

[Clive Mortimore]

Not all big layouts are expensive. One exhibition manager let slip how much the expenses were for a layout that is much bigger than Hanging Hill yet only requested about the same amount as I would for travelling the same distance. I normally only ask for the petrol cost of two cars one with the layout the other with the crew, so I not too costly. 

[hoover50008]

It is a well known fact that size isn't everything.

 

I guess the answer depends who you are trying to please.  Enthusiasts would much rather see a small quality layout, whereas they wouldn't necessarily be happy with a large tail chasing trainset that the general public would be happy with.

 

In my experience a smaller layout is what most people relate to as it gives them inspiration for what they can achieve in their limited spaces at home and personally this is the way I would go.

 

There is a place for everything and if space and funds permit then why not have a large layout at an exhibition, but at the end of the day it is all down to what the individual exhibition is comfortable with and personal choice.

 

E

[Suzie]

There is a real problem in that it is not possible to depict the vast majority of the recent UK railway network in a small layout in anything larger than 'Z' gauge, therefore an exhibition with only small layouts is going to be very restricted in what the layouts depict (pre-Beeching or rural branch lines) regardless of how good they are.The trend towards smaller layouts is a recent one, and clearly from what has been posted in this thread it is not just cost that is driving the trend - there are other forces at work whether it be the exhibition managers personal taste, or availability of suitable medium or larger layouts.

[ColinK]

I agree with Paul RHB, reputation is important. I always go to Wakefield show because it is always excellent. Likewise, I try and get to Stafford, although its now more difficult as it means staying somewhere overnight.

 

Increasingly, I am visiting shows further away from my local area because they have layouts I will not have seen before - this year it was Hull.

 

However, I suspect the non-enthusiast will probably only visit shows close to home.

[PhilJ W]

There are plenty of small 'modern era' layouts about, problem is that many tend to be of the 'depot' variety that is almost a cliche now. Another problem often with many large layouts is the larger the layout the greater the complexity and more things to go wrong, I've been to a show where a large layout that dominated the centre of the hall was largely ignored because for most of the exhibition nothing was running and the operators were beneath the layout trying to find a persistent fault.

[dasatcopthorne]

Although this situation occurred on long line at the NEC this year... as l have already expanded upon in that shows thread; that was due to problems and should not to be expected as the norm, usually i would expect 3-7 trains en-scene at once...

 

Long Line.

 

I accept that Warley may have been a one-off for yourselves but it happens on a lot of other long layouts, including roundy round as well.

 

Dave

[dasatcopthorne]

... or 90% of your visitors will have already seen two or three times before at other local shows because all the local shows do the same?

 

Of course there will be some layouts that people will travel to see wherever they are (particularly if they happen to be operated by an active RMWeb user) which isn't the same thing.

 

Cromptonnut.

 

What has the fact that a layout is being operated by an active RMWeb user got to do with whether it's worth seeing. Whether near or far?

 

Dave

[dasatcopthorne]

I'm fairly new to exhibiting, having just taken Dock Green, an O gauge layout, to its sixth show. I'd like to make a few points if I may without straying too far off-topic.

 

I detect a certain divide between exhibitors and show organisers hinted at in some of the above postings. This seems wrong to me - an exhibition is and should be a collaborative affair. It only works if the organisers and exhibitors work together to make sure it does. I have to say that all the shows I have so far attended (varying from the Warley show at the NEC to a small local GoG one-day show in Wimborne) have been well organised, with the club stewards/helpers etc being both friendly and helpful and with there being no quibbles about expenses. I'm confident that the Dock Green team have kept our side of the bargain, with a friendly but professional approach. I would have no qualms about going back to any shows we have done if invited.

 

I do not claim for more expenses than are fair - for instance at the Telford show we decided not to share hotel rooms. I was up-front about this and asked the GoG to give us what they would have paid had we been sharing and we would make up the difference, something they were happy to do. However I would not attend a show where expenses were not paid - with four or five operators over a weekend we would end up seriously out of pocket.

 

As for the implication that we would include too many team members so that they could get into the show for free - well a little more thought would make this idea obviously ridiculous. Exhibiting involves giving up a whole weekend, often starting at Friday lunchtime or getting up very early on Saturday morning and not getting back home until late on the Sunday night. Loading and unloading the van twice and spending a large chunk of the weekend on your feet, this is tiring stuff. Don't misunderstand - I enjoy doing shows and when it becomes a chore I will stop but it can't be undertaken casually and any operator that I had on my team who was only interested in getting in for free wouldn't be asked again.

 

Exhibiting must be taken seriously - too many things can go wrong for a casual approach to be appropriate - but that doesn't mean it can't be fun.

 

I'm sorry if this comes over as a rant - that isn't intended - just putting an exhibitor's point of view.

 

Chaz

 

Chaz.

 

Exhibiting has worked out for you with no problems simply because you have made your claims for expenses fair.

 

It's the ones that over-claim that are being 'moaned' about. That's where any rift comes in.

 

 

Dave

[ian]

 

What has the fact that a layout is being operated by an active RMWeb user got to do with whether it's worth seeing. Whether near or far?

 

 

The simple fact that it may already be on your 'I'd like to see that' list, rather than an unknown.

[cromptonnut]

What has the fact that a layout is being operated by an active RMWeb user got to do with whether it's worth seeing. Whether near or far?

 

Nothing, automatically.

 

However, if I've seen "Bodgett Parkway" under development on RMWeb, perhaps contributed to the discussion (like many others) and made suggestions at particular points in its development, then I feel 'part of' that layout, so if I then see that it's going to be on a show I can get to (often by a post by the owner on the thread) then I am more likely to go along to see it and introduce myself to the owner then the mysterious "Bodgett Parkway (OO)" description that may be given on an exhibition entry in a magazine or on the club's website.

 

I may travel 2 hours to see "Bodgett Parkway" and thus visit a show I may not normally bother to visit as it's further than I may want to normally travel.  I try to support local shows where I can, even if the subject matter is not part of my main modelling interest - the (fairly small) narrow gauge show at Merstham being quite the eye-opener to me this year and likely to be on my list next year) but I wouldn't have travelled 2 hours to it, for example.

 

I understand that I may be unusual in my outlook (knowing, for example, that the finescale modellers amongst us will travel several hours twice a year to your finescale-specific shows, similar to many of the O gauge shows which are way beyond my comfortable travelling distance) but I would expect that most of us have a finite budget of time and money to visit shows and we have to make that choice as to which ones we go to.

 

I'd personally rather see 2 or 3 good "small" layouts than one average or poor "big" layout at a show.

[ELTEL]

Chaz.

 

Exhibiting has worked out for you with no problems simply because you have made your claims for expenses fair.

 

It's the ones that over-claim that are being 'moaned' about. That's where any rift comes in.

 

 

Dave

In 22 years as Exhibtion Manager for Stafford I never ever had a issue on settling expenss of exhibitors at the exhibtion.

 

Stafford Railway Circle like many other successful club run exhibtions always send a questionnaire to the owners of layout requesting all the details of the layout which of course includes any costs that we have to reimburse.

 

Transport Costs that may include van hire, fuel costs, accommodations costs for layout operators traveling distances that are not within easy commute to the exhibition on a daily basis. (A decision we make and agree with the layout operator or owner)

 

It is only when we have agreed all the costs that a actual invite is sent.

 

This way there are no surprises when it comes to the settlement of expenses over the weekend of the exhibition.

 

Hope this helps

 

Eltel

[Eaton]

Nothing, automatically.

 

However, if I've seen "Bodgett Parkway" under development on RMWeb, perhaps contributed to the discussion (like many others) and made suggestions at particular points in its development, then I feel 'part of' that layout, so if I then see that it's going to be on a show I can get to (often by a post by the owner on the thread) then I am more likely to go along to see it and introduce myself to the owner then the mysterious "Bodgett Parkway (OO)" description that may be given on an exhibition entry in a magazine or on the club's website.

 

I may travel 2 hours to see "Bodgett Parkway" and thus visit a show I may not normally bother to visit as it's further than I may want to normally travel.  I try to support local shows where I can, even if the subject matter is not part of my main modelling interest - the (fairly small) narrow gauge show at Merstham being quite the eye-opener to me this year and likely to be on my list next year) but I wouldn't have travelled 2 hours to it, for example.

 

I understand that I may be unusual in my outlook (knowing, for example, that the finescale modellers amongst us will travel several hours twice a year to your finescale-specific shows, similar to many of the O gauge shows which are way beyond my comfortable travelling distance) but I would expect that most of us have a finite budget of time and money to visit shows and we have to make that choice as to which ones we go to.

 

I'd personally rather see 2 or 3 good "small" layouts than one average or poor "big" layout at a show.

Most visitors, I 'm sure would rather see 'good' rather than 'poor', the issue is more to do with would you rather see 3 poor small layouts than one good large layout which couldn't be invited because the costs are imagined to be prohibitive.

[cromptonnut]

Most visitors, I 'm sure would rather see 'good' rather than 'poor', the issue is more to do with would you rather see 3 poor small layouts than one good large layout which couldn't be invited because the costs are imagined to be prohibitive.

 

Perhaps that could be seen as 'poor exhibition manager-ness' if a layout is discounted from being considered without checking what the costs might be (particularly if they are relatively local)?

[ColinK]

There are plenty of small 'modern era' layouts about, problem is that many tend to be of the 'depot' variety that is almost a cliche now. Another problem often with many large layouts is the larger the layout the greater the complexity and more things to go wrong, I've been to a show where a large layout that dominated the centre of the hall was largely ignored because for most of the exhibition nothing was running and the operators were beneath the layout trying to find a persistent fault.

My 'small modern era' layout is not a depot! Indeed, it doesn't have a loco shed on it. Whether or not ts good is up to others to decide.

[cromptonnut]

My 'small modern era' layout is not a depot! Indeed, it doesn't have a loco shed on it. Whether or not ts good is up to others to decide.

 

Share a link and let us decide?

[Giles]

I must say, I don't envy exhibition managers - they don't have an easy time of it.... Even a small layout isn't necessarily very cheap. My (ex) layout - The End of The Line, is very labour intensive to operate, and needs four for a week-end, and that necessitates two vehicles.... And the scenic part of the layout is only 5 foot - so perhaps it's not possible to use a fixed formula or rule-of-thumb!

 

However, we've been very grateful for the kindness and hospitality shown by the excellent Exhibitions that we've attended!

[Claude_Dreyfus]

In 22 years as Exhibtion Manager for Stafford I never ever had a issue on settling expenss of exhibitors at the exhibtion.

 

Stafford Railway Circle like many other successful club run exhibtions always send a questionnaire to the owners of layout requesting all the details of the layout which of course includes any costs that we have to reimburse.

 

Transport Costs that may include van hire, fuel costs, accommodations costs for layout operators traveling distances that are not within easy commute to the exhibition on a daily basis. (A decision we make and agree with the layout operator or owner)

 

It is only when we have agreed all the costs that a actual invite is sent.

 

This way there are no surprises when it comes to the settlement of expenses over the weekend of the exhibition.

 

Hope this helps

 

Eltel

 

Whilst the vast majority do, but if only all shows had this approach...

 

A few years ago we took our club layout, along with a couple of member's layouts, to a local show. All was okay (not perfect, there were no electrical plugs anywhere near where we had been situated and it took much head-scratching from the organisers to finally sort us out) until expenses time came about. I had already notified the organising club what our expenses were at the time of booking, and not a squeak was heard. When it came to handing the cash out, the treasurer asked what our claim was, and when told (the same amount as had been originally quoted) exclaimed 'Oh, that's a bit steep'. He paid, and I duly trotted off to the other two layouts to sort their split. It turned out that the treasurer had already sorted their expenses (therefore ignoring our original agreement). I quickly worked out what the difference was and got hold of him to pay back the difference. Okay, mistakes happen, but what really annoyed me was that the treasurer had been slagging us off to other exhibitors about our claim...totally unacceptable (bearing in mind it was his mistake in the first place). 

 

The bad attitude, and lack of organisation (surprising as it was a decent sized club and show), steered me well clear of even visiting the show as a visitor again.

 

This situation has made me particularly careful of expenses for future shows. I like things to be agreed in writing in advance...makes life so much easier for all concerned. That said, I haven't had any arguments with Kanjiyama...I'm a pretty cheap date after all!

[roundhouse]

I have layouts ranging from 12 feet to 24 feet.

 

As to definition of small, my layouts are 'small'  if in a large venue but there have been occasions when the 12ft one is 'too big' for a venue!!

 

Each one of my layouts fits in our current vehicle along with 4 operators. although the smallest one needs the most operators on but most of the time has 2 locos / trains (if not more)  moving.

 

So who defines whats small or large and good value or not is a very much an individuals perception.

[Phil Parker]

Whilst the vast majority do, but if only all shows had this approach...

 

A few years ago we took our club layout, along with a couple of member's layouts, to a local show. All was okay (not perfect, there were no electrical plugs anywhere near where we had been situated and it took much head-scratching from the organisers to finally sort us out) until expenses time came about. I had already notified the organising club what our expenses were at the time of booking, and not a squeak was heard. When it came to handing the cash out, the treasurer asked what our claim was, and when told (the same amount as had been originally quoted) exclaimed 'Oh, that's a bit steep'. He paid, and I duly trotted off to the other two layouts to sort their split. It turned out that the treasurer had already sorted their expenses (therefore ignoring our original agreement). I quickly worked out what the difference was and got hold of him to pay back the difference. Okay, mistakes happen, but what really annoyed me was that the treasurer had been slagging us off to other exhibitors about our claim...totally unacceptable (bearing in mind it was his mistake in the first place). 

 

The bad attitude, and lack of organisation (surprising as it was a decent sized club and show), steered me well clear of even visiting the show as a visitor again.

 

This situation has made me particularly careful of expenses for future shows. I like things to be agreed in writing in advance...makes life so much easier for all concerned. That said, I haven't had any arguments with Kanjiyama...I'm a pretty cheap date after all!

 

I took a layout to a major southern show years ago. All was agreed in writing including expenses. I thought it was odd that I hadn't seen the treasurer for the duration of the event but never mind...

 

Anyway, he and another member turn up as we are packing away on the Sunday. The layout is in pieces on the floor and he starts the conversation with the words, "We thought your expenses were a bit high..."

 

Now, I do my level best with expenses. Fuel plus a fiver contingency normally. Initial quotes are always on the pesamistic side but once we've got there I can be a lot more certain what MPG we'll get. This regularily used to lead to me saying I wanted less than quoted. I have never come in over-budget and I take the hit myself if I do. As you can imagine, this approach didn't impress me. Added to the fact they paid a set rate for accomodation that didn't cover the price of a room locally and I'm afraid I stuck to my guns and insisted on what we had quoted.

 

If expenses seem high, say so before the layout sets off. Also, don't assume (as one exhibition manager is wont to do) that we wish to subsidise your show. I don't know anyone who looks to make a profit from a show but it's not unreasonable to expect the exhibitors to cover their out-of-pocket expenses. We don't get paid and I don't know anyone who gets away without spending some unexpected money along the way. Indeed, one reason to pay in cash is that this frequently finds its way in to the hands of the traders, making them happier with the show.

[Penlan]

........ I thought it was odd that I hadn't seen the treasurer for the duration of the event but never mind......... he and another member turn up as we are packing away on the Sunday. The layout is in pieces on the floor and he starts the conversation with the words, "We thought your expenses were a bit high..." ........ Indeed, one reason to pay in cash is that this frequently finds its way in to the hands of the traders, making them happier with the show.

I would have thought the traders would have been well packed away by this time...   

 

I was surprised at the last show my layout was at, to be paid on the Saturday evening... No quibble from either side.