LNER Models in 4mm

[Chas Levin]

21 hours ago, micklner said:

My knowledege of 3D printing is zero. I have only built the above Restaurant Car and a ex NER Inspection Car so far. Detail is ok but its all too fragile on both kits. I still at the moment prefer etched versions of similar models.

Yep, have to say I agree, etched brass has properties that are hard to beat. That being said, like you Mick, I'll try the occasional one, especially if it's an unusual prototype. The sheer novelty makes it interesting, doesn't it, the very fact that it is a different material with different advantages and disadvantages?

 

I suppose on the plus side, you can say that it has the bulk and the 3D detailing capabilities of white-metal, without the associated weight and with considerably more finesse and accuracy.

 

That brittleness is a b^%%er though, isn't it? I have a GC Barnum to build, and a couple of GNR coal wagons, putting both off because of that...

[John Tomlinson]

13 minutes ago, Chas Levin said:

Yep, have to say I agree, etched brass has properties that are hard to beat. That being said, like you Mick, I'll try the occasional one, especially if it's an unusual prototype. The sheer novelty makes it interesting, doesn't it, the very fact that it is a different material with different advantages and disadvantages?

 

I suppose on the plus side, you can say that it has the bulk and the 3D detailing capabilities of white-metal, without the associated weight and with considerably more finesse and accuracy.

 

That brittleness is a b^%%er though, isn't it? I have a GC Barnum to build, and a couple of GNR coal wagons, putting both off because of that...

 

In my albeit limited experience, the one thing you mustn't do with 3D print is to try to cut it through with a knife. It will simply break and shatter, and not in the place you want!

 

Gentle filing and sanding are fine, and on my two coaches I used those metal backed nail files from Boots, that give a firm and straight surface, for sanding, especially cleaning up the insides of windows. If you do use a knife, it should be for back-scrapeing only.

 

John.

[jwealleans]

I've built a few 3D printed carriages, mainly from Bill Bedford but also Isinglass.   Mick's point about fragility is well made.  Even when built, I have had damage simply from transporting them to and from shows without any specific bad handling or accident.   If your stock has to be handled or packed and transported regularly, I'd go for etched construction every time.

[micklner]

1 hour ago, Chas Levin said:

Yep, have to say I agree, etched brass has properties that are hard to beat. That being said, like you Mick, I'll try the occasional one, especially if it's an unusual prototype. The sheer novelty makes it interesting, doesn't it, the very fact that it is a different material with different advantages and disadvantages?

 

I suppose on the plus side, you can say that it has the bulk and the 3D detailing capabilities of white-metal, without the associated weight and with considerably more finesse and accuracy.

 

That brittleness is a b^%%er though, isn't it? I have a GC Barnum to build, and a couple of GNR coal wagons, putting both off because of that...

Novelty or a pain?? . It adds a lot of time to a build , because you have to do everything so carefully and dont drop it like I did !! . Etched is not perfect, but it has vital strength which is much needed !!

[Bucoops]

The biggest issue I have with brass is my cack-handedness. More than once I've put a dent into a half=etched panel which is an absolute pig to sort. Isinglass resin is very brittle as we know - the resin used by Bill on his Mousa parts is a lot more flexible - certainly with regards to underframe parts and the wagon body I have.

 

I still much prefer brass or nickel silver but I am slowly coming round to printed parts as well.

Edited June 28, 2023 by Bucoops

[billbedford]

5 hours ago, John Tomlinson said:

In my albeit limited experience, the one thing you mustn't do with 3D print is to try to cut it through with a knife. It will simply break and shatter, and not in the place you want!

 

That is definitely a sign that cheap Chinese resins have been used.

[spsmiler]

Not all of us have the skills to use etched brass successfully! I have tried, hence my comment. I think and hope that I will just about manage a white metal KW Trams Great Orme tram kit.

 

Perhaps the only advantage that I can see in using brass etches (or white metal) is that there is no risk of interior illumination shining through the carriage sides or roofs.

 

Printed cardboard model trains is another option but perhaps best only for static display, a cheap way to fill sidings / an engine shed, etc.

 

I have used Shapeways 3D printed carriages and found that they often have visible lines that come from the laying down of layers of resin during the printing process. This makes them very much a choice of last resort. But for limited-appeal models that cannot justify the cost of tooling up for metal or injection moulded resin 3D printing is the only solution.

 

The person whose Shapeways shop includes these carriages only offers bodies - a one piece 3D print comprising roof, sides, ends. These seem to be reasonably robust, although I admit that I try to handle them gently and have no plans to test their robustness in a way that could actually damage them.

 

The rest of the job is in the scratchbuilding category - and for a novice like me sourcing things like seats, bogies, other components is a challenge. In this respect I have found Andy at Issinglass to be very helpful. 

 

For many reasons, including supporting innovative cottage-industry retailers and that the models include everything I would like to try Issinglass carriages but their models are more historic 'steam locomotive hauled' era than electric multiple-unit era.

 

In the 1990s I had a Dave Alexander Tyne & Wear Metro kit professionally made for me and it could yet be that I'll adopt the same solution for a Judith Edge NER or LNER electric locomotive, such as used on the coal train route or was planned for the York to Newcastle electrification.

Edited July 5, 2023 by spsmiler

[micklner]

I cannot see any previous comment from you ?

 

Etched kits are far superior for the following reasons,

Thinness, strength, no deviation of any lines and light(ish) in weight and easily built (start with soldering a wagon kit or something else small).

 

The Isinglass Model has these qualities as well , none of which however are actually superior or equal to current CAD designed etched kits .

 

I agree Isinglass are very helpful. 3D printing is improving all the time.

[thegreenhowards]

I agree that etched brass is the best for accuracy and produces a robust model.

 

However 3d printing and plastic kits are quicker and easier to build. I agree that etched kits are simple enough once you’ve mastered soldering, but plastic is simpler and certainly quicker because a lot of the detail is moulded in.
 

Speed is an important criteria if you’re trying to build up a large fleet rather than just building the kit for its own sake.

 

Andy

[micklner]

29 minutes ago, thegreenhowards said:

I agree that etched brass is the best for accuracy and produces a robust model.

 

However 3d printing and plastic kits are quicker and easier to build. I agree that etched kits are simple enough once you’ve mastered soldering, but plastic is simpler and certainly quicker because a lot of the detail is moulded in.
 

Speed is an important criteria if you’re trying to build up a large fleet rather than just building the kit for its own sake.

 

Andy

Yes I agree re fleet builds , luckily I do not have that problem.

 

But at the same time I find  most Plastic kits are not that good in actual detail (other than Slaters), and all are far to light and can be prone to warping if they get hot and/or badly built.

3D can be far too fragile, as I just just found out. During the recent build of mine the  Isinglass Coach fell about two feet onto a carpet and the corner shattered (luckily repairable). If it had been a hard floor it would probably have been destroyed. The Sides during the build had to be supported/braced to stop them bowing inwards even after the Roof was fitted, and at one point the floor started to sag due the weight of the whitemetal fittings used by me for the underframe. Luckily again when fitted together the floor straightened out. I would'nt like to take the floor off again as it appears to be very difficult, without causing damage at the same time .

Apparantly there are various types of Resins and Plastic that can be used with 3D Printers , they maybe stronger/flexible I have no idea. There is also little difference in the prices of Etched and 3D kits , Etched are better value at the moment.

 

 

 

That large fleet ,might end up in the bin after a short period if not enough care is taken with its build/use and storage.

Edited July 5, 2023 by micklner

[Chas Levin]

31 minutes ago, micklner said:

Yes I agree re fleet builds , luckily I do not have that problem.

 

But at the same time I find  most Plastic kits are not that good in actual detail (other than Slaters), and all are far to light and can be prone to warping if they get hot and/or badly built.

3D can be far too fragile, as I just just found out. During the recent build of mine the  Isinglass Coach fell about two feet onto a carpet and the corner shattered (luckily repairable). If it had been a hard floor it would probably have been destroyed. The Sides during the build had to be supported/braced to stop them bowing inwards even after the Roof was fitted, and at one point the floor started to sag due the weight of the whitemetal fittings used by me for the underframe. Luckily again when fitted together the floor straightened out. I would'nt like to take the floor off again as it appears to be very difficult, without causing damage at the same time .

Apparantly there are various types of Resins and Plastic that can be used with 3D Printers , they maybe stronger/flexible I have no idea. There is also little difference in the prices of Etched and 3D kits , Etched are better value at the moment.

 

 

 

That large fleet ,might end up in the bin after a short period if not enough care is taken with its build/use and storage.

Yep, I think there are lots of good points being made here for both types of material and certainly speed and ease are key factors for some, but robustness and longevity are key for others' needs. Horses for courses, as in so many things. It's great to live in an age where we have the choice!

[thegreenhowards]

2 hours ago, micklner said:

Yes I agree re fleet builds , luckily I do not have that problem.

 

But at the same time I find  most Plastic kits are not that good in actual detail (other than Slaters), and all are far to light and can be prone to warping if they get hot and/or badly built.

3D can be far too fragile, as I just just found out. During the recent build of mine the  Isinglass Coach fell about two feet onto a carpet and the corner shattered (luckily repairable). If it had been a hard floor it would probably have been destroyed. The Sides during the build had to be supported/braced to stop them bowing inwards even after the Roof was fitted, and at one point the floor started to sag due the weight of the whitemetal fittings used by me for the underframe. Luckily again when fitted together the floor straightened out. I would'nt like to take the floor off again as it appears to be very difficult, without causing damage at the same time .

Apparantly there are various types of Resins and Plastic that can be used with 3D Printers , they maybe stronger/flexible I have no idea. There is also little difference in the prices of Etched and 3D kits , Etched are better value at the moment.

 

 

 

That large fleet ,might end up in the bin after a short period if not enough care is taken with its build/use and storage.

I agree with the last sentence. My plastic kits are mainly wagons or Kirk. The wagons do get broken occasionally but they’re easy enough to fix most of the time. Kirk kits are ‘of their time’, but I have found them good for building longer rakes of Gresleys and for cut and shutting to make unusual vehicles.ntheyre reasonably robust.

 

My experience of 3D printing is mainly a few Isinglass vehicles which are not available etched, like a GNR BC and a GN buffet car conversion. I’ll be on for one of his 66’ sleepers which he’s promising soon. I also built an O gauge J69 from a 3D print. This I did drop on the floor and smashed badly. It’s repaired but needed a heavy weathering to hide the damage!

 

Andy

[micklner]

Arthur K LNER F8 ex NER A Class , running in at the moment. Cab roof will not be fixed down until the Cab is painted and Crewed.

 

 

 

Edited July 31, 2023 by micklner

[Jon4470]

That’s a nice looking locomotive 

[micklner]

Cab Interior done, body now in primer.

 

 

[micklner]

F8 painted awaits lining and numbers. Body not screwed down in photos, chassis slightly tight at the rear , needs some filing at mo.  Westinghouse Pump will be fitted to the Nearside, after lining out has been done.

 

 

 

 

 

Comparison with my earlier build of the Falcon Brass F8 version. The FB version has differences in the Cab sizing and is slightly shorter in overall length.

 

Edited August 6, 2023 by micklner

[John Tomlinson]

On 05/07/2023 at 19:15, thegreenhowards said:

I agree with the last sentence. My plastic kits are mainly wagons or Kirk. The wagons do get broken occasionally but they’re easy enough to fix most of the time. Kirk kits are ‘of their time’, but I have found them good for building longer rakes of Gresleys and for cut and shutting to make unusual vehicles.ntheyre reasonably robust.

 

My experience of 3D printing is mainly a few Isinglass vehicles which are not available etched, like a GNR BC and a GN buffet car conversion. I’ll be on for one of his 66’ sleepers which he’s promising soon. I also built an O gauge J69 from a 3D print. This I did drop on the floor and smashed badly. It’s repaired but needed a heavy weathering to hide the damage!

 

Andy

 

I'd agree completely with this. Also you and I are both sole workers (your productivity however being far higher than mine!), rather than being rolling stock specialists who are part of a bigger team.

 

Most of my freight stock is kit built plastic wagons. There are a few detailed RTR, and some cases where I've put a proper chassis under a nicely moulded RTR body. There are also a handful of brass kit wagons which seemed to take an age to do, and tbh don't look any better than plastic stuff at normal viewing distance. I've some Kirk coaches that I've built, and a couple of Isinglass resin jobs.

 

I also find that I flip interests, sometimes I'm in the mood for wagons, sometimes coaches, other times a bit of loco kit soldering, or detailing up RTR stuff I'bve bought. As Clive Mortimore often points out, it's meant to be FUN, and variety is the spice of life!

 

John.

[Chas Levin]

6 hours ago, micklner said:

F8 painted awaits lining and numbers. Body not screwed down in photos, chassis slightly tight at the rear , needs some filing at mo.  Westinghouse Pump will be fitted to the Nearside, after lining out has been done.

 

 

 

 

 

Comparison with my earlier build of the Falcon Brass F8 version. The FB version has differences in the Cab sizing and is slightly shorter in overall length.

 

Very smooth paint finish Mick: brush, or air?

[micklner]

10 hours ago, Chas Levin said:

Very smooth paint finish Mick: brush, or air?

Halfords Matt Black never found anything better , same make  for Primers, White's, Oxford Blue and Red Oxide.

 

Edited August 7, 2023 by micklner

[30368]

7 hours ago, micklner said:

F8 painted awaits lining and numbers. Body not screwed down in photos, chassis slightly tight at the rear , needs some filing at mo.  Westinghouse Pump will be fitted to the Nearside, after lining out has been done.

 

Really good job Mick and I always think that if you paint and line them too, even better.

 

Keep up the good work,

 

Richard B

[MarkC]

20 hours ago, micklner said:

F8 painted awaits lining and numbers. Body not screwed down in photos, chassis slightly tight at the rear , needs some filing at mo.  Westinghouse Pump will be fitted to the Nearside, after lining out has been done.

 

 

 

 

 

Comparison with my earlier build of the Falcon Brass F8 version. The FB version has differences in the Cab sizing and is slightly shorter in overall length.

 

Lovely work, Mick.

 

Yes, the cab on the FB model definitely looks 'out' when compared to Arthur's offering - as does the bunker & side tanks.

 

Mark

[micklner]

F8 finished .

 

 

 

 

[micklner]

A much more "interesting" kit has just been started.

A etches only Falcon Brass J24 sourced via ebay, no instruction or castings or even frame spacers were supplied , luckily it was cheap.

I have made a start on the chassis and naively didnt check the dimensions first.

As you can see the etched holes for the centre drivers are not inline by about 1mm, luckily I checked before going any further. The wayward Axle Bush has now been moved to the correct position.

 

 

The Body etch , one set of tags and two lines for the valances , the rest is guesswork. Luckily as the tags provided are for the Cab Front I can postion the Boiler etc quite easily in due course.

 

 

I have managed to i.d all the Body parts other than the three items on the centre/left in the photo below. Two appear to fold up into two boxes. The other item looks like Cricket Stumps with the centre Stump missing.

 

Anyone have any ideas as what they are ??.

 

Edited August 19, 2023 by micklner

[30368]

41 minutes ago, micklner said:

F8 finished .

 

Really nice work Mick. Lining looks really good, transfers or pen? I have never mastered the pen and always use transfers.

LIke your approach of pointing out your little mistakes, I'm a firm believer in a "warts and all" approach to posting on this website. We all suffer from cock-ups and it is healthy to point them out. I suspect many potential loco builders are put off by the apparent "perfect models" that some seem to produce.

 

Can't help with the etch I'm afraid.

 

 

Kind regards,

 

Richard B

Edited August 19, 2023 by 30368

[micklner]

2 minutes ago, 30368 said:

 

Really nice work Mick. Lining looks really good, transfers or pen? I have never mastered the pen and always use transfers.

 

Kind regards,

 

Richard B

HMRS

cheers