dseagull Posted February 7, 2015 Share Posted February 7, 2015 I've never bothered with powering frogs before, but as I understand it is highly reccomended to avoid relying on point blades to conduct power. I am not big on electrical matters, which is why I qent DCC many uears ago in the first place. I've been looking at frog juicers, but not sure whether to go for two dual juicers or one hex juicer. As can per my blog, my new project has four points. I was orifinally going to go for two dual juicers, however the below, from the Coastal DCC website has raised a question http://www.coastaldcc.co.uk/products/tamvalley/hex-frog-juicer-universal Hex frog juicers have a special start-up sequence that sequences each turnout on one at a time and checks for a short and thus starts each turnout in the correct polarity. The mono and dual cannot do this and this limits the number of electrofrogs you can connect to a command station through the frog juicers. Otherwise you can get a situation where too many turnouts are in the wrong polarity for the booster to start the layout without immediately shutting down. My DCC system is an NCE Powercab - would two dual juicers work on this setup, or do I need a Hex? Thanks in advance! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Mallard60022 Posted February 7, 2015 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 7, 2015 Mate I have used Hex and they are so simple to wire and are brilliant. Bit expensive but worth every penny IMO. I also use NCE DCC but conventional DC point operation. Phil Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold RFS Posted February 7, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 7, 2015 I've never bothered with powering frogs before, but as I understand it is highly reccomended to avoid relying on point blades to conduct power. I am not big on electrical matters, which is why I qent DCC many uears ago in the first place. I've been looking at frog juicers, but not sure whether to go for two dual juicers or one hex juicer. As can per my blog, my new project has four points. I was orifinally going to go for two dual juicers, however the below, from the Coastal DCC website has raised a question http://www.coastaldcc.co.uk/products/tamvalley/hex-frog-juicer-universal My DCC system is an NCE Powercab - would two dual juicers work on this setup, or do I need a Hex? Thanks in advance! I don't understand the problem described in the quote. If you're using turnouts, such as Peco code 75, that have been modified such that the frog is completely isolated (which is more or less essential if you're switching frog polarity) then the only way a short can be generated on start-up is if a loco is straddling the frog and the adjacent rails. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Phil Bullock Posted February 7, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 7, 2015 As a hex user I don't understand the comment either and can only echo Mallards comments - work very well on Abbotswood Pgil Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Montague Posted February 7, 2015 Share Posted February 7, 2015 And, another answer that doesn't fully answer your question, but the Hex Frog juicer is a wonderful peace of equipment that saves a lot of fiddling and just plain works!!! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tender Posted February 7, 2015 Share Posted February 7, 2015 My layout has ten points and I use 1 hex and 2 dual Juicers without any problems. Ray. Edit: also a NCE PowerCab system Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dseagull Posted February 7, 2015 Author Share Posted February 7, 2015 That's pretty emphatic then! - thanks, I think I will invest in a couple of dual juicers. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bgman Posted February 7, 2015 Share Posted February 7, 2015 That's pretty emphatic then! - thanks, I think I will invest in a couple of dual juicers. I don't think you'll regret it Happy modelling:) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Phil Bullock Posted February 7, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 7, 2015 Ditto Phil Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
250BOB Posted February 8, 2015 Share Posted February 8, 2015 I have a hex frog juicer, but do remember almost being told off by some electrical wiring traditionalists for fitting one at the time, some 3 or 4 years ago. It's good to hear that many others use these fantastic little gizmos. For me it has been one of the best purchases ever made, very simple to use, and does exactly what it says on the tin. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Suzie Posted February 8, 2015 Share Posted February 8, 2015 If you are worried about wiring and you are using motors that have built in frog switches (Peco PL10 with PL15 switch, Seep PM1, Cobalt, tortoise etc.) you will probably find that there is less wiring to be done if you just wire the frog to the frog switch rather than install a frog juicer. The reason for the caveat quoted above is that many people buy frog juicers because they only want to do the absolute minimum required to get up and running and therefore will not make the simple modifications to the points to isolate the frog. In that case when the layout is powered on 50% of the frog juicers will short out the track and the command station may shut down before all of the frog juicers have time to sort themselves out. If you must use them (and I will admit there are a few rare scenarios where they can be useful) you really need to restrict their use to not more than one per power district. On the face of it the frog juicer looks like an easy way out, but just because it costs a lot of money does not always make it a simple solution - there are often cheaper solutions that are simpler to install and electrically a lot simpler to manage especially if you want to control your points from DCC. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
250BOB Posted February 8, 2015 Share Posted February 8, 2015 On the face of it the frog juicer looks like an easy way out, but just because it costs a lot of money does not always make it a simple solution - there are often cheaper solutions that are simpler to install and electrically a lot simpler to manage especially if you want to control your points from DCC. You want to give me an example of something for the same purpose, that is simpler to wire up than a frog juicer, and I dont want to control my points by DCC...???? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold RFS Posted February 8, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 8, 2015 There are different ways of doing this, as is common in our hobby. I would suggest looking at the OP's requirement from a cost point of view. He only requires 4 motors: 4 Tortoise slow-motion motors (£14.29 from DCC supplies, for example) will cost £57.16. 4 Peco solenoid motors will cost around £5 each, plus the HFJ is £48 so total cost is £68. And you might need a CDU for the solenoids in addition. You are paying a premium for using solenoid motors, compared to the reliability of slow-motion motors. (An alternative to the HFJ might be the DCC Concepts ADS2-FX (http://www.ehattons.com/80700/DCC_Concepts_DCD_ADS2FX_COBALT_Solenoid_Accessory_Decoder_2_Output_/StockDetail.aspx). You would need two at £17 each. These do frog switching as well as having a CDU) As far as wiring is concerned, Seep, Peco and Tortoise all require wires to be soldered so an HFJ doesn't avoid that need. 4 solenoids require 12 wires for operating, 1 each for frog and 2 from the HFJ to the DCC bus - total 18. Each Tortoise requires 5 wires each - total 20. If it were my layout it would be a quick decision, but then it's my layout. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tender Posted February 8, 2015 Share Posted February 8, 2015 Suzie. Frog juicers are not used as an easy way out, just an alternative to unreliable switches built into some point motors or motors that have no switch at all. I.e servos, some surface mount solenoids, wire in tube etc. You only have to make the same mod to the point as you would with a 'switched' frog, ie isolate the frog. A frog juicer just needs one wire to the frog (apart from power from the track to the board) so where do you get the more wiring from? Why not more than one juicer from a power district? My layout has ten juicers(frogs) and one district, has done six exhibitions and numerous hours running at home without any problems and the command station (PowerCab) has never shut down as a result of using them. Managing points from DCC has got nothing to do with how the frog is powered. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Oldddudders Posted February 8, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 8, 2015 There also seems to be an assumption that all points must be powered. While that might seem desirable, it is not compulsory, may be difficult in certain locations, and adds cost and complexity. An FJ works just fine in such circs, subject only to the frog being isolated as has been pointed out. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
250BOB Posted February 8, 2015 Share Posted February 8, 2015 There also seems to be an assumption that all points must be powered. While that might seem desirable, it is not compulsory, may be difficult in certain locations, and adds cost and complexity. An FJ works just fine in such circs, subject only to the frog being isolated as has been pointed out. I agree, and would imagine there are quite a few home layouts with hand operated points.....of the 70 points on my layout, only 10 are motorised to date......all done with peco surface point motors which work really well, but dont offer any polarity switching terminals. Hence I find the Hex Frog Juicer an absolute simple plug and play option to help me keep running trains with my electrofrog Code 75 DCC layout....which is the part I enjoy. Although I do accept and applaud those who have motorised every point and used the polarity switching the motor offers. Bob. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dseagull Posted February 8, 2015 Author Share Posted February 8, 2015 On a previous layout I had points powered by Tortoise Motors with Hare decoders. It was expensive and although very easy to setup, changing the points from the handset required either a lot of planning or a lot of quick reactions! This time I have no desire for dcc controlled points - In fact I may even go for wire in tube operation. With regard to soldering, whilst is certainly not my forte, The minor modification to the points is sonething I think I can manage in the interests of reliable operation, especially as the layout is deliberatley portable and lightweight with half an eye towards exhibitable status in the future. On a similar note, If I do use Tortoi, I will also buy the little blue attachments which add screw connections to the bottom, similar to those on the hare decoders - they are about 4 quid each but I know they will save me a lot of hassle! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crosland Posted February 8, 2015 Share Posted February 8, 2015 As a hex user I don't understand the comment either and can only echo Mallards comments - work very well on Abbotswood Pgil I think it's talking about points where the frog has not been correctly isolated. Andrew Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Suzie Posted February 8, 2015 Share Posted February 8, 2015 You want to give me an example of something for the same purpose, that is simpler to wire up than a frog juicer, and I don't want to control my points by DCC...???? Wiring a frog juicer:- Two wires to the track feed, one wire to the frog. Wiring a Cobalt:- Two wires to the track feed, one wire to the frog. Wiring a PL15 switch on a solenoid:- Two wires to the track feed, one wire to the frog. There is a pattern here and I don't think that I need to continue... The only time a frog juicer is useful is when you need to switch something like a diamond crossing or tricky reverse loop where there is no other suitable switching from an adjacent point frog. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
250BOB Posted February 8, 2015 Share Posted February 8, 2015 Wiring a frog juicer:- Two wires to the track feed, one wire to the frog. Wiring a Cobalt:- Two wires to the track feed, one wire to the frog. Wiring a PL15 switch on a solenoid:- Two wires to the track feed, one wire to the frog. There is a pattern here and I don't think that I need to continue... The only time a frog juicer is useful is when you need to switch something like a diamond crossing or tricky reverse loop where there is no other suitable switching from an adjacent point frog. But still no simpler than a Frog Juicer though....or am I misunderstanding? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy Reichert Posted February 8, 2015 Share Posted February 8, 2015 But still no simpler than a Frog Juicer though....or am I misunderstanding? No it's the same. And conversely the frog juicer isn't simpler than those either. OTOH, when asked for a Pound by the Cashier in a shop, they will probably accept either a One Pound Coin or an Old Gold Sovereign. But using the latter to buy your groceries will cost you a lot more. Andy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tender Posted February 8, 2015 Share Posted February 8, 2015 Wiring a frog juicer:- Two wires to the track feed, one wire to the frog. Wiring a Cobalt:- Two wires to the track feed, one wire to the frog. Wiring a PL15 switch on a solenoid:- Two wires to the track feed, one wire to the frog. There is a pattern here and I don't think that I need to continue... The only time a frog juicer is useful is when you need to switch something like a diamond crossing or tricky reverse loop where there is no other suitable switching from an adjacent point frog. Ah, but:Wiring six points with a hex juicer: Two wires from the track to hex frog juicer One wire to each frog. Total eight wires. Wiring six cobalts etc. Two wires from track to each cobalt. One wire to each frog. Total eighteen wires. I make that an extra ten wires.............. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy Reichert Posted February 8, 2015 Share Posted February 8, 2015 Ah, but: Wiring six points with a hex juicer: Two wires from the track to hex frog juicer One wire to each frog. Total eight wires. Wiring six cobalts etc. Two wires from track to each cobalt. One wire to each frog. Total eighteen wires. I make that an extra ten wires.............. Frog juicers, or the much cheaper relay's contacts, should be wired to the stock rails adjacent to the frog in question. If you use common power wires for multiple frogs, you risk having reversed polarities, intervening open gaps and/or shorts across multiple power districts. And BTW, I personally don't like that trains can be fully powered while derailing when running accidently into wrongly set points. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenton Posted February 8, 2015 Share Posted February 8, 2015 I have a hex frog juicer, but do remember almost being told off by some electrical wiring traditionalists for fitting one at the time,I guess that might have been me B) Personally I wouln'd use one as I believe that they are an expensive waste. But then I am quite happy with using a tortoise and a few wires and that had worked perfectly for me. Though I am now prepared to admit to the use of a mobile phone (reluctantly) and can also see that sometimes paying extra sometimes is not so evil as I have always thought. They do seem to perform and do the job so for those who need an out of the box solution to all their "problems" this is as good as anything else. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold roundhouse Posted February 8, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 8, 2015 I started using from juicers to replace the unreliable SEEP solenoid built in switch. On Banbury I tried using the Peco duel microswitch but found them a pain to set up so I swapped over to Frog Juicers. On Dobris I fitted them as the SEEP solenoids were installed. I would use Tortoise motors but my baseboards are not deep enough to take them. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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