Default stances of negativity

[leopardml2341]

Sometime, someplace, I remember reading this:

 

For you to insult or offend me, I would first have to actually value your opinion.

 

Not aimed at anyone in particular - just a useful sentiment and a good argument stopper. I have often remembered this before posting an ill considered reply to  'controversial' (shall we say) post on RMWeb and other forums.

[griffgriff]

You should have put the money towards a Bachmann auto trailer ...

 

Chris

Why would I do that?  I hear it's an 'opportunity for improvement'

[leopardml2341]

The 'armchair critic' is prevalent in many hobbies. Some of you will remember (hopefully) the restored bus I had as an avatar pic?

 

One day a few years ago at a vehicle gathering I overheard conversation about this not being right and that being wrong etc., etc.

 

I dutifully engaged the people in conversation before politely informing them that I was grateful to receive their feedback, and to back this up could they show me how they had resolved the 'apparent discrepancies' on their vehicle.........

 

Need less to say the silence was deafening, until one said 'I haven't restored one' - my polite response was a very gracious 'Oh I see'.

[t-b-g]

The internet gives those who, in the past, had to keep their moans and whinges to themselves (or perhaps to a few mates (if they have any) in a pub), a ready outlet to make their voices heard.

 

It isn't just RMWeb. I belong to an ice hockey internet forum. If we lose badly, there are calls for mass sackings of players and coaches. If we lose by a small margin, there are loads of "We are just not good enough". If we win a tight game, there are whinges that we should have finished the opposition off and won by more. If we win by a mile, there are whinges that the match was too one sided!

 

We won a match something like 8-1 recently and somebody made much of the defensive error that led to their goal.

 

If we win, the thread runs to a couple of pages. If we lose, it goes to 10 or more.

 

People just seem to prefer to moan rather than praise.

 

I do wonder how some people would deal with it if their own personal performance, either in work or in their home life, was torn to shreds on a public forum every time they were less than 100% perfect. But from behind a keyboard, often under a false name, they can fire off their bullets with no chance of any response.

 

Still, if every post was a nice happy "isn't life and the world of model railways wonderful" it might just get a bit boring. I do agree with Andy though. Every time a new product is announced there is a barrage of moans about the choice of prototype, specification, price and delivery timetable that just gets plain boring.

 

Tony

[griffgriff]

Lesson #1: That painting isn't wonky, it's Differently-Square.

 

(Sorry.)

It's abstract.  Again a phrase I've heard pertaining to the Bachy autocoach

 

 

EDIT

 

Referring to Autocoach thread, debate on pricing etc

[30801]

There is something similar happening on an APT-E thread, where people seem to be getting positively tetchy that a manufacturer has so far, inexplicably, failed to release the dimensions that they need to know, right now, in order to plan their layout properly.They are now using bold type and italic and underlining, just so everyone knows how important this issue is.

 

Look. My proposed layout is by a load bearing wall. If I have to remove too much material to clear the APT's nose my house might fall down.

 

I like the Rapido threads. I ordered an APT after reading them even though I have no sane need for one. Open input from a manufacturer is tremendously positive and it would be a shame if they were dissuaded from doing so.

 

TBH though they seem like lads who can take a bit of stick.

[Torr Giffard LSWR 1951-71]

Quote from TBG above

 

I do wonder how some people would deal with it if their own personal performance, either in work or in their home life, was torn to shreds on a public forum every time they were less than 100% perfect. But from behind a keyboard, often under a false name, they can fire off their bullets with no chance of any response.

 

Tony

 

 

.....a slight overreaction.....it is possible to point out issues, which the creator/author of same is probably already aware of, without it being classed as "tearing them to shreds". Producing anything for public consumption means that you have to expect at least as much 'flak' as praise.....or would you prefer that consumers simply swallowed all 'guff' without comment or complaint, even if it meant that they would be expected to put up with ever more of it?? Any businessman achieving his sales figures with less than satisfactory products has no incentive to improve.

 

Dave

[t-b-g]

 

Quote from TBG above

 

I do wonder how some people would deal with it if their own personal performance, either in work or in their home life, was torn to shreds on a public forum every time they were less than 100% perfect. But from behind a keyboard, often under a false name, they can fire off their bullets with no chance of any response.

 

Tony

 

 

.....a slight overreaction.....it is possible to point out issues, which the creator/author of same is probably already aware of, without it being classed as "tearing them to shreds". Producing anything for public consumption means that you have to expect at least as much 'flak' as praise.....or would you prefer that consumers simply swallowed all 'guff' without comment or complaint, even if it meant that they would be expected to put up with ever more of it?? Any businessman achieving his sales figures with less than satisfactory products has no incentive to improve.

 

Dave

 

 

I don't have any problem with faults being commented on.

 

I myself have passed comment on problems with new products. But I tried to do it in a constructive and supportive way.

 

My problem is with the entirely predictable and boring string of posts that accompany pretty much all new products even at the announcement stage. It is going to be the wrong livery, the wrong period, going to be the wrong price, be in the wrong condition or is the wrong prototype for so many people.

 

It is almost as if enough people moan about it, Bachmann/Hornby will halve the price, double the quality and get the model here tomorrow.

 

It is also as if some people think they their own personal "wishlist" is somehow far more important than that of all other modellers when it comes to what manufacturers should produce.

 

99% of RTR models are no use to me. But I don't feel the urge to tell the world that the manufacturers are producing the wrong thing each time something is announced. I am quite happy that the non GCR modellers are getting something that may be of use to them and I hope they enjoy their new stuff.

 

The best responses to models seem to have been on the ones where there was little or no advance notice and there would be a lot less hot air and wasted internet bandwidth if perhaps more products were released on that basis.

 

Tony

[The Bigbee Line]

Some days, RMweb looks like a 'Letters Page' for the disgruntled RTR buyer. 

Well said.  Maybe there should be 'problem page' for modellers on RM web.

 

Some contributors don't know when they're well off.  I recently purcheased a Hornby Terrier tank from ebay.  I know it has some faults, some I can improve on, some I'll just have to live with.  RM Web has opened my eyes to a few solutions and I've been lucky enough to see what some others have done.  I'm not going to slag off the original suppliers, they did what they thought was the best job at the time.  In other words I paid my money and got what I paid for.  If I didn't like it I can put it back on ebay and hopefully sell it, getting hopefully some of my money back.  What would be negative and un-necessary would be to trot out all I've found wrong (in my opinion) with it.  I hope that came acoss as intended.

 

My Mother used to say "if you can't say anything nice, don't say anything at all"  That's not to stifle critism, but rather to be constructive about what we say.  Maybe a review should list out all the things well done, and the things done not so well.

 

Let's not forget there will be times when critism is required, just make sure it is consructive and where necessary justified i.e. you can tell me my loco's rubbish, as long as you tell me why, and also show me yours............

[Poggy1165]

The world has become a much tenser and demanding place over the last 20-30 years. This applies to all areas of life. Some people can cope with it quite happily - the majority cannot, and it comes out in various ways.

 

In the 'consumer' world, which includes model railways, customers have become much more demanding, and, at at times, unreasonable. For example, when reading reviews of pubs, I am struck by how often people complain that there is no freshly ground coffee available. Twenty years ago most people didn't even know what 'freshly ground coffee' was, still less did they demand it.

 

I get the impression on here sometimes that certain modellers now expect 'the trade' to provide them with RTR versions of everything they need for a given scenario, and they want it now. Preferably for a very modest price. And of course, when it comes, it must/must not (delete as applicable) have the six rivets that were added to the cab door in August 1995.

 

I'm not sure that there's anything anyone can do about this - it's just the way society has evolved.

[Torr Giffard LSWR 1951-71]

Quote by The Bigbee Line above

 

What would be negative and un-necessary would be to trot out all I've found wrong (in my opinion) with it.  I hope that came acoss as intended.

 

I wouldn't describe comparison with works drawings or numerous close up images simply as "my opinion"

 

....and there are those of us who constantly point out alternative routes to a particular model (kits etc) and always pursue/promote the most accurate models available....learning as we go along by comparing notes....helping each other to avoid inaccurate/flawed ones by 'flagging up' issues and classing models with serious problems as a waste of money. Those who don't want to know about this approach, or else disagree with it have the option of reading different posts/threads instead.

 

Dave

[Kenton]

 

I reach the point where I skip the posts of negativity.  Some folk have even been added to my 'Manage Ignore Prefs' list, I find their posts so tiresome.

There is one major problem with that approach - you miss the gems when they do appear or simply see the discussion as if the batteries on your hearing aid are giving up.

 

and I guess you'll miss this post too.

 

I think the best position to take is to just ignore everything and just read what you like - some might say don't even bother to contribute at all. It would certainly be a quiet forum.

[Torr Giffard LSWR 1951-71]

The world has become a much tenser and demanding place over the last 20-30 years. This applies to all areas of life. Some people can cope with it quite happily - the majority cannot, and it comes out in various ways.

 

In the 'consumer' world, which includes model railways, customers have become much more demanding, and, at at times, unreasonable. For example, when reading reviews of pubs, I am struck by how often people complain that there is no freshly ground coffee available. Twenty years ago most people didn't even know what 'freshly ground coffee' was, still less did they demand it.

 

I get the impression on here sometimes that certain modellers now expect 'the trade' to provide them with RTR versions of everything they need for a given scenario, and they want it now. Preferably for a very modest price. And of course, when it comes, it must/must not (delete as applicable) have the six rivets that were added to the cab door in August 1995.

 

I'm not sure that there's anything anyone can do about this - it's just the way society has evolved.

 

 

....or you could view it that there are new opportunities for manufacturers.....discerning modellers with the necessary 'readies' are prepared to pay more for the best models.

 

"It is an ill wind that blows nobody any good".

 

Dave

[Loconuts]

Shhhh, this is a cunning plan by Andy to bring out all the moaners by launching this topic and when he has enough of you together the cull begins.

 

Loconuts

[Kenton]

 

Many of us saw this coming, its maybe time for members to consider whether RMWeb needs some major recalibration or if it is on a long slow lingering demise due to members just getting fed up with people who in a pub or other setting would avoid.

 

Pete

Again I would have just clicked disagree on this but the button is missing so we are encouraged to respond with a post - well I guess it does keep the forum active and a topic up high in the "New Posts" page.

 

Pete, as one who has been around RMWeb since just after inception and having experienced the regular appearance of these navel gazing topics. Yes, we have done this all before - like so many topics they just pop up with a rather depressing frequency. They usually get some new feed/fuel then just fade a sort of venting of steam.

 

I don't think there is any need for a recalibration, just a moment to reflect before business as usual until the subject is revisited again in a year or so as the negativity reaches another peak and it becomes high enough on someone's agenda to start another topic.

 

I do not see any symptoms of a lingering demise of RMWeb. Just the opposite I see plenty of new members popping in to ask modelling questions or to discuss their layout plans. I see plenty of posts from long standing members offering helpful advice, displaying their work and, of course, just a little showing off. I see a really wide range of prototypical information freely supplied that would take ages to research (even if we all had access to a massive library of out-of-print material. Sure the old controversies of what is fine scale and which colour ballast to use where (among others) will keep popping up again and again never to be resolved but serve their purpose to remind us of why we took the decision we did and perhaps make others re-evaluate why.

 

Pubs themselves are perhaps going out of fashion (I don't even have one with easy walking distance) the old days of popping in one for a quick pint after a day's work to gripe over the latest news, politics, and everything else to the price of a pint and the publicans failure to wash out the pipes adequately - long gone. Now they are seen as family meeting places to go to for a meal with grandparents and the kids. If you feel the need for a discussion on everything from the weather to why England cannot win at cricket (even model railways) forget the pub, the club, there is this thing called the internet. No need to introduce yourself, no need to wear your uniform and display your medals, no need to respect your elders (what does age and experience matter anyway) just log in to a forum, type your request, put your cat among the pigeons, and start a discussion with other members.

[woodenhead]

 No need to introduce yourself, no need to wear your uniform and display your medals, no need to respect your elders (what does age and experience matter anyway) just log in to a forum, type your request, put your cat among the pigeons, and start a discussion with other members.

 

You forgot ,,,and start a discussion with other members and walk away without adding anything further,

[PeteScR]

  Again I would have just clicked disagree on this but the button is missing so we are encouraged to respond with a post - well I guess it does keep the forum active and a topic up high in the "New Posts" page.

 

Pete, as one who has been around RMWeb since just after inception and having experienced the regular appearance of these navel gazing topics. Yes, we have done this all before - like so many topics they just pop up with a rather depressing frequency. They usually get some new feed/fuel then just fade a sort of venting of steam.

 

I don't think there is any need for a recalibration, just a moment to reflect before business as usual until the subject is revisited again in a year or so as the negativity reaches another peak and it becomes high enough on someone's agenda to start another topic.

 

 

Kenton,

I too have been around a while on RMWeb (9 years) and yes every now and again the questions get asked and we go around in circles.

I also believe though that nothing stays the same forever and that re-inventing or re-energising things can be good.

 

I know people will say "if its not broken dont fix it", but in my experience that leads to staleness, lack of involvement and ultimately lack of interest.

I am not suggesting that everything gets ripped up or anything, merely asking if there is a future strategy for RMWeb of the future? Is Andy happy with the way its going? Does it need a few tweaks to make it appealing to a new generation?

 

Me, I would start with closing down all non prototype / modelling threads to get rid of about 50% of the chaff (at least)

I am sure those out there who see RMWeb as a "community " will be appalled at that, but it would make me come back more often for a modelling fix.

After all, isnt that why RMWeb came into existence in the first place.

 

(are those pigeons I hear flapping away?)

 

Pete

[gordon s]

Me, I would start with closing down all non prototype / modelling threads to get rid of about 50% of the chaff (at least)

I am sure those out there who see RMWeb as a "community " will be appalled at that, but it would make me come back more often for a modelling fix.

After all, isnt that why RMWeb came into existence in the first place.

 

(are those pigeons I hear flapping away?)

 

Pete

 

OK Pete, before I take the bait, can you clarify your comment regarding closing down all non prototype/modelling threads…..

[beast66606]

Me, I would start with closing down all non prototype / modelling threads to get rid of about 50% of the chaff (at least)

I am sure those out there who see RMWeb as a "community " will be appalled at that, but it would make me come back more often for a modelling fix.

After all, isnt that why RMWeb came into existence in the first place.

 

I'd go one step further Pete and close down all the threads that don't have any mention of signalling - why should I have to ignore threads that don't interest me ?

My cat has just eaten your pigeon I think.

[Torr Giffard LSWR 1951-71]

...."closing down entire sections/types of thread etc".....this all sounds a bit drastic. Model railway enthusiasts are rarely so insular that they don't have other interests too. I find the general diversity and acceptance of people with a range of interests on this site, the main reason for being a part of it.

 

As for circles....as a species we evolve by having experiences, revisiting past experiences and modifying our approach/opinion and outlook based on the knowledge which we acquire in doing so....why are circles or the revisiting of issues which involve some or all of us regularly a cause for concern?  

 

Dave 

[PeteScR]

OK Pete, before I take the bait, can you clarify your comment regarding closing down all non prototype/modelling threads…..

 

What bait? I wasnt aware that was not allowed an opinion.

 

Pete

[APOLLO]

Yes, we need a Dr Andy Beeching !!!

 

Brit15

[PeteScR]

I'd go one step further Pete and close down all the threads that don't have any mention of signalling - why should I have to ignore threads that don't interest me ?

My cat has just eaten your pigeon I think.

 

See, you post an opinion and some people cant let it lie. I'll let Kenton know the Cat and Pigeon approach doesn't work with you then.

[Talltim]

I'd go one step further Pete and close down all the threads that don't have any mention of signalling - why should I have to ignore threads that don't interest me ?

My cat has just eaten your pigeon I think.

No dark territory for you then...

[Taz]

The problem is Pete your definition of interesting and relevant threads will differ from other peoples.

Some threads you are interested in may be considered chaff by others. Does that mean they should go?

 

 

The vast majority of non modelling or prototype threads are all bunched together in wheeltappers anyway so are easy to avoid/ignore if you so wish.