Default stances of negativity

[Fenman]

In terms of material wants and needs we're better off than most of history (there have been ups and downs and we're not in an up right now, even if we're past the minimum), but I find little to be positive about in general. There's not really any evidence that people are getting happier, and surely that's the only thing that really matters. The country might be getting easier and more convenient over time but I really, really think it's also getting gradually more unattractive and soulless, which is starting to affect me more and more. The ease and convenience is already sufficient, I don't need or want more unless it comes with no downsides. IMO what's needed for happiness are not worrying about the basic necessities, good company, and good surroundings. Other things are more temporary and ultimately less meaningful ...

Some interesting work has been done along these lines: Richard Reeves in this country wrote a fascinating book called "Richer, not happier", (he also made a funny populist tv documentary).

 

The academic research seemed to suggest that achieving the average national income of somewhere like Portugal (albeit fairly and evenly distributed) meant that the largest proportion of people were happiest: they could pay for food, shelter and healthcare without concerns. As incomes rose higher, populations became less happy. Which seems bizarre, but the result is fairly consistent.

 

Some people have argued that ever-increasing GDP is a dumb aspiration. I think it was Bhutan which instead developed a Gross Happiness Index, to try to measure the things that are really important to us.

 

This reminds me of that old joke: no-one on their deathbed has ever expressed the wish that they had spent more time in the office.

 

Paul

[Reorte]

There's a good degree of truth in the wealth / happiness thing. I've been feeling rather down lately, and getting a tax rebate of a few thousand only mildly cheered me up, but the first time I actually felt happy was when I was out on the fells, caught in the rain. That might well have been the other way around if I was worrying about my survival of course, which would've been the case for a large proportion of the population until relatively recently, which is why I suspect that the "more wealth" thing is still stuck in society's conciousness.

 

GDP is also daft for another reason - even if you think more wealth is important then it's the amount per capita that really tells us something useful.

 

Obviously a big problem with the happiness thing is that there's no easy way of measuring it, and that what makes people happy varies from person to person (albeit with a fair degree of overlap in some areas).

[raymw]

Here's something to cheer ya all up - http://www.geek.com/science/heavy-smartphone-use-linked-to-lazy-thinkers-low-intelligence-1617371/

[Kenton]

 

Obviously a big problem with the happiness thing is that there's no easy way of measuring it, and that what makes people happy varies from person to person

On the nail.

 

Anyone who says that more money doesn't make them happier is beyond believing. I am content to say that money is enabling. It enables you to be in the right place, at the right time, with all that you need to enjoy anything that pleases you. In quantity it can buy just about anything but it does not give you the ability to spend wisely. If you have enough you can pay someone to build that loco/layout/whatever. You cannot cure health problems but you can live better by purchasing better treatment. But most of us simply do not have that much. It also enables one to be charitable and philanthropic.

[Fenman]

... Anyone who says that more money doesn't make them happier is beyond believing....

 

And yet... all the research in this area says that, beyond a basic level, that is absolutely correct. The US is a much less happy place today than it was in previous decades. The same is true of most of western Europe.

 

Here's an intriguing article by someone who was a researcher at the Work Foundation at the time. Isn't there some research now into the fortunes of Lottery winners - the picture is much more mixed than you might think. I guess your point that you need the ability to spend wisely may come into play there.

 

Here's a more academic article with appropriate references.

 

Paul

[raymw]

And, in a more entertaining manner

http://www.ted.com/talks/dan_gilbert_asks_why_are_we_happy#t-4411  - ' gall bladder op, or trip to Paris?'

 

 

welcome to New Zealand http://www.ted.com/talks/michael_green_what_the_social_progress_index_can_reveal_about_your_country

[alfsboy]

 On the nail.

 

Anyone who says that more money doesn't make them happier is beyond believing. I am content to say that money is enabling. It enables you to be in the right place, at the right time, with all that you need to enjoy anything that pleases you. In quantity it can buy just about anything but it does not give you the ability to spend wisely. If you have enough you can pay someone to build that loco/layout/whatever. You cannot cure health problems but you can live better by purchasing better treatment. But most of us simply do not have that much. It also enables one to be charitable and philanthropic.

This doesnt explain why most very rich people I have met are miserable gits who worry the unworking poor are after their largely tax free wealth .

[PhilH]

Looks like this thread is starting to prove the OP's point...

[Flood]

It's a deliberate ploy by Andy to suck all the negativity into just one thread. Thus releasing all the other threads to contain only positive comments or informative criticism.

 

A brilliant plan and no need for a totalitarian regime (yet!!).

[Kenton]

If it gets locked we can always blame the bankers.

 

I simply do not understand the blame game comparison between someone who doesn't work and is therefore poor and pays no tax against someone who is rich has probably paid a lot more tax (even if they follow the rules put in place to avoid paying tax) and probably used their intellect to make that money. Given a job we all presumably work hard to earn more - some are just better able to do so. The trouble with the media on the subject of tax is that they mix the words avoid and evade and the illiterate masses don't understand. Even some of the top politicians get that wrong which is their fault along with the fact that they make avoidance so simple by complicating the tax system. Everyone who pays tax avoids it in some form or other. Everyone who evades tax should be contributing through the proceeds of crime.

[Horsetan]

....Anyone who says that more money doesn't make them happier is beyond believing. ....

It doesn't seem to have changed you.

[woodenhead]

My negativity filter is beginning to apply itself to this thread my visits are getting shorter and I am losing the ability to give one as the saying goes.

 

But as Flood says, perhaps this is a Dyson thread sucking in all the unwanted stuff.

[Flood]

Everyone who pays tax avoids it in some form or other.

I'm not being funny here, I'm just looking for the explanation. I heard the same comment as above from some Conservative bloke last week.

 

All my tax is generated through PAYE, how can I ever avoid paying tax?

 

Edit:

 

Kenton has very kindly mentioned available options in a post below of which I am entitled to (and receive) only two. Well at least I know I'm not missing a trick!

[Torr Giffard LSWR 1951-71]

....the proof of the hobby being alive and well is that 7 pages of wash have already been generated by this topic...much more worrying if no one had bothered to respond in the first instance, although greater apathy would probably have resulted in the post not being made in the first place. Maybe we should be careful what we wish for.

 

Dave 

[LNER4479]

Anyone who says that more money doesn't make them happier is beyond believing.

Reminds me of a favourite quip from Billy Connolly: 'Just give me the chance to prove that money can't buy happiness....'(!)

 

Couple of thoughts (probably already said in different ways)

 

1) The man sat across the table in the (hypothetical?) pub can punch your lights out if he objects to what you say; the same is not true for the recipient of an unkind / careless comment on t'internet. Ergo, are not purveyors of default stances of negativity more emboldened on internet fora?

 

2) I once heard it said of the human mentality that you can praise someone, criticise someone or ignore someone. The worst of these is actually to ignore someone. Hence someone posting a critical comment who gets a barrage of abuse in response has at least himself got some form of human reaction. Perhaps it would be best if we all simply ignored critical comment? (the theory being that those with default stances of negativity would wander off and go someone else in search of a 'response')

 

And with the sound of those piggy wings flapping above me, I'm away to do some modelling....

[edcayton]

I'm not being funny here, I'm just looking for the explanation. I heard the same comment as above from some Conservative bloke last week.

 

All my tax is generated through PAYE, how can I ever avoid paying tax?

 

 

ISA's, tax-free allowance, pension contributions, using tradesmen who are below the VAT threshold, driving the right sort of car, buying clothes etc from Oxfam, how many more would you like?

 

Ed

[Reorte]

For most of history, and beyond (and still in a lot of the world) most people have struggled hard to even get enough to survive, let alone with a degree of comfort. It's therefore pretty inevitable that an "acquire more and you'll be happy" mindset has evolved, even if it's no longer necessary. It's the same as the appeal of fatty food, useful and fairly hard to get throughout most of humanity's existence, so we crave extra hard for it and seek it out as a result, even though we're now capable of managing things so that it's not hard to come by.

 

There are things which would make a lot of us happier that some more money would make easier to achieve (e.g. being able to live exactly where you'd like to) but all that actually does is shuffle people around, rather than raising overall happiness. The way society is set up you may need some money to get you to where you'll be happy but once you're there more won't really make much difference. Mostly it buys you transient things where it's the basics that really matter.

[30801]

It's a deliberate ploy by Andy to suck all the negativity into just one thread.

Pretty sure that would be the Buy & Sell thread.

[Bernard Lamb]

 On the nail.

 

Anyone who says that more money doesn't make them happier is beyond believing. I am content to say that money is enabling. It enables you to be in the right place, at the right time, with all that you need to enjoy anything that pleases you. In quantity it can buy just about anything but it does not give you the ability to spend wisely.

As you get older you tend to move away from that point of view. Money does tend to come much lower down the list of priorities after reaching 70.

Well it does for most of the people I know who have paid off their mortgage years ago and set their kids up on the road to security and of course have a public sector or final salary private pension. Every year that passes without delving too far into the piggy bank means that there is a year less for the money to last.  Unfortunately in the future that will tend to encompass a smaller percentage of the population.

As for spending wisely. I know one chap who when we suggested that he pack up work and come out cycling with the rest of us said that he could not afford to retire. His pension was what almost all people would call very large but his view was that he could not buy a new Porsche every three years if he retired.

I find it interesting that this thread has produced such a response. In a small way I contributed to it's origin by making the comment that I was fed up with the moaning about Bachmann price increases. On a cycling forum that I belong to the original post would be answered with the simple comment "10 pages?" and all the regulars would let it run it's course and emerge again when it was done and dusted. Why do modellers feel that they have to join in? Oops doing it myself.

Bernard

[Kenton]

 

All my tax is generated through PAYE, how can I ever avoid paying tax?

Do you have a pension to which you contribute? Do you have an ISA? Do you have any savings interest or own any shares? Do you get any allowances set against your pay (mileage, car, subscriptions, health insurance)? Do you (or your partner) receive child benefit? Do you hold Premium Bonds? Personal allowances for general income, on profit from capitals gains, from running a profitable business ... - no need to answer but all of these and many others are contrived forms of ways to avoid tax. They were designed over time by various governments to allow all tax payers to keep money/goods on which you pay less or no tax.

<br /><br />

The fairest tax system: is determined by an exponential equation. paying progressively more tax on every £ of income and zero benefits or allowances. However, politics dictates that is too simple as each flavour of government wants to tinker and complicate. It is now so incredibly complicated that people can make a living off making sure that these so called "loop holes" are taken advantage of and defending them against claims to the contrary.

<br /><br />

Of course some of these avoidance measures are more available to those who have most money (and therefore already paying far more tax than perhaps yourself) that may not seem fair but they are not doing anything illegal just doing what the tax laws allow them to do. I have had clients on quite modest incomes (~£50-60K) who were not taking advantage of the simplest of them.

<br /><br />

Perhaps we are drifting a little

[Andy Reichert]

My negativity filter is beginning to apply itself to this thread my visits are getting shorter and I am losing the ability to give one as the saying goes.

 

But as Flood says, perhaps this is a Dyson thread sucking in all the unwanted stuff.

 

That latest Dyson is missing so many details and features the earlier version had, and the price has just rocketed. . . . . . . . . . .

 

Andy

[BlackRat]

This doesnt explain why most very rich people I have met are miserable gits who worry the unworking poor are after their largely tax free wealth .

I have three mates, one in oil and Gas offshore, £850 a day, one a director, take home £15,000 a month and one who sold his multi Nat company and is worth tens of millions ( he started out from Penzance with less than £200 made from flower picking in 1979).

 

They re some of the happiest, funniest people I know.

 

Mind you, they all have tails of woe to tell, oil and gas was a hostage at the Armnias facility in Algeria, and many of his mates were murdered, one has a disabled son, and the last.....

 

He has me as a mate!

[2ManySpams]

Well said Andy in the opening post. The increasing levels of moaning, rudeness and aggressive behaviour exhibited by some were the main reason I took a month off RMweb. Really not keen that the worst features of Twitter and Facebook etc are becoming more and more the norm on here.

 

As Andy says the antidote is to get on and do some actual modelling. I'm doing just that and am staying firmly in my own little corner of RMweb and avoiding the "i want/demand" type of thread. (i ended up here by way of fat fingers on a phone screen and found that my own private thoughts of late were mirrored by Andy's OP)

 

I'm enjoying being back and doing something creative, particularly as visitors to my thread have been supportive, good humoured and give good, constructive advice.

[Guest]

I seem to recall a couple of threads recently titled something like "over-zealous moderation" where some folk got upset that posts had been deleted without an explanation. Maybe any excess whining, grumbling and other such malcontent should be swiftly pruned too. Moaning is like yawning, it seems to be contagious for no apparent reason. If such whining were swiftly deleted, fewer people would be able to read it and then chip in with their share...More work for the moderators though... Alas, I guess we'll just have to put up with it or choose to ignore it.

[BoD]

If ever I feel negativity creeping up on me, which is a rare occurance anyway, I just pop into the 'How realistic are your models. Photo challenge' thread. You cannot do anything but come out of there feeling rejuvenated, enthused and positive.