PECO Announces Bullhead Track for OO

[hayfield]

Excellent, good to see those hinged point blades have gone but there's just one glaring snag for me looking at that sample.

Ive never seen a check rail supported by just 3 timbers before, looks most odd.

Hopefully, they'll have lengthened the check rail towards the toe a little in the production version.

 

 

The production model may differ from the prototype, so don't get your hopes up too much

[bertiedog]

Just got in the post one of the Hattons H&M point motor clones at £6.50, they are very nice quality indeed, with a switch built in, but other micro switches could be added should it fail.

 

They are all metal framed like H&M with the arms as before or the post can be extended through the board if mounted underneath. The wire gauge looks finer than H&M reducing the current, but it works on any capacitor discharge unit to ensure a longer life.

 

I always add an Omega loop in the system to take up the excess movement, difficult if located under the point, but an over sized hole in the arm can do the job, sited by careful measurement, or use a small hairspring or coil to cushion the action.

 

Stephen

[lakeview770]

I see you are in the US. "Model Railway Imports" in Ontario has the full range of current Peco products and posts all over the US and Canada.  

Steve the proprietor has also told me he plans to bring in the new range when available and I believe he already has the bullhead flex-track in stock, as well as DCC Concepts Bullhead flex track.

Excellent service.  Tom 

 

 Dominion, Ive used them twice and was impressed with their service. Sometime when I needed a lot of items I can order from the UK but my supplier here in Florida is great. One of the few things we have here that I think is better than back home is not the actual postal service itself, but the services offered. We have flat rate boxes (tubes and triangle too) which are free and you pay a flat rate if theres 1 piece of flextrack or a whole box which is why I try and source items here in North America. So hopefully MRI will carry the range if not hopefully Britannia also in Canada will. I doubt my supplier here in Florida will have any call for UK type track.

 

Andy

[Ramblin Rich]

I very much doubt that Peco would move to solid blades, it is part of the design that Mr Pritchard was proud of, saving machining, with basically pressed and folded parts, and with a light positive snap action. Solid blades must double the pressure required to moved them and a far more powerful over centre spring to hold the blade to the outer rails would be needed,

The current joint is intrusive, but can be over painted if the blade has a fuse wire connections soldered across the joint underneath, to bond the blade electrically to the stock rail. The crossing frog remains switched as usual. Peco were offering a choice between the blades switching or a switch doing the switchover of the frog.

Bullhead is more flexible than flat bottom though, so 'solid' blades might still be possible...

[Coryton]

Sorry if I've upset the users of the 'upstands'!

 

I should think so too! Maligning such an important part of the points like that...

 

More seriously, surface mounted point motors come with a bar with a hole in the end that drops over the upstand (I like the word).

 

There is presumably some reason they don't do it the other way round (hole in the tie-bar and downstand (can I call it that?) on the point motor bar but I can't think what.

 

Maybe the upstand is also there for manual operation...?

 

It's presumably been a feature on Peco points long before they sold surface mounted point motors or people were into using servos.

[Pacific231G]

I imagine 'realism' is the driving force behind chaired points, and so the large radius point is the obvious one to produce first. Maybe it's just me, but chairs, realism and 24" radius should not be in the same sentence, but to add a sense of reality, the real railways rarely go below 6 chains radius curve, or 5ft 2½ins in 4mm scale, and even this is is most often found in sidings. Even the full size equivalent of 9' radius in 4mm is considered sharp on Britain's mainlines.  I know space is the enemy of railway modelling and no doubt Peco will attend to these needs eventually. In fact it wouldn't surprise me to find Hornby has chaired setrack in it's sights.

I did wonder about that. I agree that two foot radius is too tight. I have two small radius points in my current layout and though they're only in goods sidings I wish I'd kept to medium radius throughout. For a small BLT I find they look alright and the Peco medium points are nominally three foot radius. Theyr'e actually almost identicial in overall  geometry to SMP three foot radius points and when trackbuilding was more the norm that does seem to have been the most common size for 16.5mm gauge. Peco's large (nominally five foot radus) points are curved beyond the frog to give the same 12^o exit angle as the small and medium radius points which are straight beyond the frog. That does seem to lose some of the benefit of using longer points particularly on formations like crossovers.because of the abrupt reversal.

 

By the way, what would be the crossing angles/frog nos of full size turnouts that would give radii of 6 and 10 chains?    

Edited January 6, 2017 by Pacific231G

[Pacific231G]

Just to remind peeps that this was the sample in the cabinet at Warley, note that the switch blades are in one piece and not hinged

So I'm afraid were the pre-production versions of the first Streamline points; at least that was what appeared in a photo in the March 1961 RM .That was a two foot radius point with a dead frog. 

Edited January 6, 2017 by Pacific231G

[bertiedog]

Bullhead is more flexible than flat bottom though, so 'solid' blades might still be possible...

But not as easy to make as stamping and folding from sheet metal in a fraction of a second, with no swarf or waste, and allows for tabs and connections to be stamped at the same time.

 

Stephen

[steve45]

I very much doubt that Peco would move to solid blades, it is part of the design that Mr Pritchard was proud of, saving machining, with basically pressed and folded parts, and with a light positive snap action. Solid blades must double the pressure required to moved them and a far more powerful over centre spring to hold the blade to the outer rails would be needed,

The current joint is intrusive, but can be over painted if the blade has a fuse wire connections soldered across the joint underneath, to bond the blade electrically to the stock rail. The crossing frog remains switched as usual. Peco were offering a choice between the blades switching or a switch doing the switchover of the frog.

Really sorry to disagree, but unless the new points are similar to the Warley sample, why would they cost 100% more than the current offering? If I am going to be paying £30 a pop then I want something that looks a lot better than the current HO offering with just a change in rail profile and sleeper spacing as this would still be nowhere near the same standard that we now expect for loco's and rolling stock. 

I really cannot see Peco introducing a product which is visually inferior and so different to the sample which was seen at the Warley Exhibition by so many. They would be shooting themselves in the foot, especially as the motivation to introduce these products in the first place was due to the forthcoming availability of realistic product from alternative manufacturers

I use slow action point motors so I take the spring out of the point and I think the general movement in point motors is away from solenoid type which require the centre over spring.

I really do hope we don't get the hinged blades as I for one will think twice about paying the premium for something which is not that much better than what we already have.

 

Cheers

 

Steve

[steve45]

So I'm afraid were the pre-production versions of the first Streamline points; at least that was what appeared in a photo in the March 1961 RM .That was a two foot radius point with a dead frog. 

Maybe someone can phone Peco and ask what the blades are going to be, they will know by now if the point is going to be introduced by Easter. Sorry I can't phone as I am at work during the week.

[davefromacrossthepond]

Just got in the post one of the Hattons H&M point motor clones at £6.50, they are very nice quality indeed, with a switch built in, but other micro switches could be added should it fail.

 

They are all metal framed like H&M with the arms as before or the post can be extended through the board if mounted underneath. The wire gauge looks finer than H&M reducing the current, but it works on any capacitor discharge unit to ensure a longer life.

 

I always add an Omega loop in the system to take up the excess movement, difficult if located under the point, but an over sized hole in the arm can do the job, sited by careful measurement, or use a small hairspring or coil to cushion the action.

 

Stephen

Stephen,

 

With regards to the Hattons point motor.  How thick of a baseboard do you think the extension rod would reach through?  I haven't been able to locate this information anywheres.  Thank you in advance for any assistance.

[coachmann]

By the way, what would be the crossing angles/frog nos of full size turnouts that would give radii of 6 and 10 chains?    

 

 

Best person to answer that is Mr.Templot.

[Retro_man]

 Dominion, Ive used them twice and was impressed with their service. Sometime when I needed a lot of items I can order from the UK but my supplier here in Florida is great. One of the few things we have here that I think is better than back home is not the actual postal service itself, but the services offered. We have flat rate boxes (tubes and triangle too) which are free and you pay a flat rate if theres 1 piece of flextrack or a whole box which is why I try and source items here in North America. So hopefully MRI will carry the range if not hopefully Britannia also in Canada will. I doubt my supplier here in Florida will have any call for UK type track.

 

Andy

 

Hi Andy,

 

We have Peco Bullhead Code 75 Flextrack in stock and will stock the Peco bullhead turnouts and other parts as they become available.

The full range of Peco flat bottom Code 75 is also kept in stock.

 

Steve

Model Railway Imports

Canada

[martin_wynne]

Best person to answer that is Mr.Templot.

 

It very much depends how you specify "radius". Most commercial pointwork is specified as the substitution radius, which can be very different from the actual radius in the rails. Especially for curved turnouts.

 

For example, Peco describe their Large Radius turnouts as 60" radius, but the actual radius in the rails is nearer 45".

 

However, assuming you are asking about the actual radius in the rails, with generic-type crossings, i.e. "straight frog" with no entry straight, the nearest to 6 chains in 16.5mm gauge would be a B-7, and the nearest to 10 chains is a C-9:

 

 

Both of these are longer than a Peco Large Radius turnout. The above lengths in the screenshot are to the mid-point of a crossover at Peco's 50.8mm (2") track centres.

 

Note that DCC Concepts have said that their first turnout will be a B-7, but probably shorter than this if for 45mm track centres.

 

If you mean what are the prototype sizes with those radii, i.e. 18.83mm gauge instead of 16.5mm, the nearest would be B-6.5 and C-8.5:

 

 

regards,

 

Martin.

Edited January 7, 2017 by martin_wynne

[Roy Langridge]

I am really looking forward to these points becoming available and work on my 00 layout is halted pending their release*. What I would say is that rather than then step back to medium radius point, I would like to see Peco address curved points next - again they are the larger more gentle radiuses that will, in my opinion, look good with the better sleeper spacing.

 

Roy

 

* I have a shed load of brand new current code 75 points to put on a certain auction site!

[hayfield]

I should think so too! Maligning such an important part of the points like that...

 

More seriously, surface mounted point motors come with a bar with a hole in the end that drops over the upstand (I like the word).

 

There is presumably some reason they don't do it the other way round (hole in the tie-bar and downstand (can I call it that?) on the point motor bar but I can't think what.

 

Maybe the upstand is also there for manual operation...?

 

It's presumably been a feature on Peco points long before they sold surface mounted point motors or people were into using servos.

 

 

I guess the standard Peco tiebar's design is intended to be equally used for both hand operation and under board operation, though they do do a point motor mounting plate (PL9) which can be used for below baseboard level for thick baseboards and a different one which has an actuating arm to connect to the tiebar for above the base board operation

[hayfield]

I did wonder about that. I agree that two foot radius is too tight. I have two small radius points in my current layout and though they're only in goods sidings I wish I'd kept to medium radius throughout. For a small BLT I find they look alright and the Peco medium points are nominally three foot radius. Theyr'e actually almost identicial in overall  geometry to SMP three foot radius points and when trackbuilding was more the norm that does seem to have been the most common size for 16.5mm gauge. Peco's large (nominally five foot radus) points are curved beyond the frog to give the same 12^o exit angle as the small and medium radius points which are straight beyond the frog. That does seem to lose some of the benefit of using longer points particularly on formations like crossovers.because of the abrupt reversal.

 

By the way, what would be the crossing angles/frog nos of full size turnouts that would give radii of 6 and 10 chains?    

 

From what I have observed historically back in the 50's/60's due to both space and lack of materials after the war 2' radius was the norm for home layouts, 3' radius when space allowed

 

Really sorry to disagree, but unless the new points are similar to the Warley sample, why would they cost 100% more than the current offering? If I am going to be paying £30 a pop then I want something that looks a lot better than the current HO offering with just a change in rail profile and sleeper spacing as this would still be nowhere near the same standard that we now expect for loco's and rolling stock. 

I really cannot see Peco introducing a product which is visually inferior and so different to the sample which was seen at the Warley Exhibition by so many. They would be shooting themselves in the foot, especially as the motivation to introduce these products in the first place was due to the forthcoming availability of realistic product from alternative manufacturers

I use slow action point motors so I take the spring out of the point and I think the general movement in point motors is away from solenoid type which require the centre over spring.

I really do hope we don't get the hinged blades as I for one will think twice about paying the premium for something which is not that much better than what we already have.

 

Cheers

 

Steve

 

I would expect Peco may be aiming for a lower price

[steve45]

 

I would expect Peco may be aiming for a lower price

From what Bertiedog said at post 2035 he had information via model shops and Peco Reps that they were going to be RRP of approximately £30 due to increased hand assembly, I am hoping that this increased effort is in the switchblade and tie bar areas

[PMP]

Lets be clear, the only person that thinks Peco are going to do jointed blades is Bertiedog.

 

I spoke to one director and one senior manager and two of the magazine staff at Warley https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=1163183963758078&id=597088120367668

 

So for clarity.

The prototype shown was described as being as close as possible to the end product as they could provide at that time.

It included

Unifrog design (I asked)

Solid blades (I asked)

Compatability with the existing PECO Streamline CD75 geometry (I asked)

Compatability with existing PECO point motors and switchgear. (I asked)

Availability around second/third quarter of the year 2017 (I asked)

First type will be the 'large radius' (streamline) point.( I asked), If successful and well received, further types of point will follow, no indication of which type/radii would be next. (I asked, they didn't say)

Hand assembled in the UK, hence (manual labour) part of the price increase over the normal machine assembled ranges. (I asked)

No price was suggested apart from they will be priced as competitively as possible. (I asked) Whilst more expensive than the streamline range, they would follow the established PECO quality/value for money values. (They said)

The pictures on the facebook link answer a number of red herrings/bs that is being kicked around here.

 

Over this and other threads there have been comments about why make plain track and no points? Anyone whom has followed PECO's track range development will know that is exactly how they do it, and have done for many years. 009 crazy track as it was called at first IIRC, released with no points, CD75 flex track released no points, CD75 concrete sleeper track released, no points, CD83 track released, no points. O gauge streamline released, no points. O gauge set track released, no points, HOe/M track released, no points. I Think Peco know what they are doing, just a hunch mind, I may be wrong and they could have been very, very lucky developing and releasing at least eight ranges in the same way.

 

Perhaps it would help if people want to know what PECO are going to produce they ask the questions direct. I did, and knowing all four staff concerned have no reason to doubt anything they told me.

Edited January 7, 2017 by PMP

[Pacific231G]

It very much depends how you specify "radius". Most commercial pointwork is specified as the substitution radius, which can be very different from the actual radius in the rails. Especially for curved turnouts.

 

For example, Peco describe their Large Radius turnouts as 60" radius, but the actual radius in the rails is nearer 45".

 

However, assuming you are asking about the actual radius in the rails, with generic-type crossings, i.e. "straight frog" with no entry straight, the nearest to 6 chains in 16.5mm gauge would be a B-7, and the nearest to 10 chains is a C-9:

 

00_bf_b7_c9.png

 

Both of these are longer than a Peco Large Radius turnout. The above lengths in the screenshot are to the mid-point of a crossover at Peco's 50.8mm (2") track centres.

 

Note that DCC Concepts have said that their first turnout will be a B-7, but probably shorter than this if for 45mm track centres.

 

If you mean what are the prototype sizes with those radii, i.e. 18.83mm gauge instead of 16.5mm, the nearest would be B-6.5 and C-8.5:

 

p4_b6p5_c8p5.png

 

regards,

 

Martin.

Many thanks for this Martin

It's the crossing angles relative to the actual prototype minimum radii mentioned by Coachman I was after and you've  answered my question. I wasn't directly comparing with Peco's offering but with a known main line prototype that had crossing angles of 1/7 with turnouts simply specified as "short" and "long". 1/9 would have been more usual but this was a particularly tight location with speeds correspondlingly restricted.

Edited January 7, 2017 by Pacific231G

[Pint of Adnams]

* I have a shed load of brand new current code 75 points to put on a certain auction site!

Or you could use them in a fiddle yard or storage sidings...

[Jeff Smith]

Lets be clear, the only person that thinks Peco are going to do jointed blades is Bertiedog.

 

I spoke to one director and one senior manager and two of the magazine staff at Warley https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=1163183963758078&id=597088120367668

 

So for clarity.

The prototype shown was described as being as close as possible to the end product as they could provide at that time.

It included

Unifrog design (I asked)

Solid blades (I asked)

Compatability with the existing PECO Streamline CD75 geometry (I asked)

Compatability with existing PECO point motors and switchgear. (I asked)

Availability around second/third quarter of the year 2017 (I asked)

First type will be the 'large radius' (streamline) point.( I asked), If successful and well received, further types of point will follow, no indication of which type/radii would be next. (I asked, they didn't say)

Hand assembled in the UK, hence (manual labour) part of the price increase over the normal machine assembled ranges. (I asked)

No price was suggested apart from they will be priced as competitively as possible. (I asked) Whilst more expensive than the streamline range, they would follow the established PECO quality/value for money values. (They said)

The pictures on the facebook link answer a number of red herrings/bs that is being kicked around here.

 

Over this and other threads there have been comments about why make plain track and no points? Anyone whom has followed PECO's track range development will know that is exactly how they do it, and have done for many years. 009 crazy track as it was called at first IIRC, released with no points, CD75 flex track released no points, CD75 concrete sleeper track released, no points, CD83 track released, no points. O gauge streamline released, no points. O gauge set track released, no points, HOe/M track released, no points. I Think Peco know what they are doing, just a hunch mind, I may be wrong and they could have been very, very lucky developing and releasing at least eight ranges in the same way.

 

Perhaps it would help if people want to know what PECO are going to produce they ask the questions direct. I did, and knowing all four staff concerned have no reason to doubt anything they told me.

Peco seems to have it's head screwed on and has not persevered this long in a relatively specialist marketplace without being able to read it. After 30 years of P4 involvement I have recently re-discovered Peco in the shape of it's somewhat ancient O-16.5 range of track and kits. In this scale I consider myself an 'average' enthusiast having no desire to build my own track and being happy with OO wheel standards.

 

Looking again at the large radius EP it does look pretty good, except perhaps for the short check-rails, and I am particularly impressed by the relatively small gap between point and stock rails. This suggests permanent bonding between the two so no danger of shorting from wheel backs.

 

In a few years time this track range will be as natural a choice for discerning OO modellers as the FB HO range has been in the past.

[Mike Storey]

On a dawn raid into Kent from my long boat (well into Faversham, the Hobby Shop - most truly excellent), I obtained a dozen short metres by threat of parting with your English pounds.

 

On my return to the Mother Barn, where I am sacreligiously using Peco Code 83 for the BR running lines (for the Code 8 angle point work) I posed the new Peco Code 75 BH track. The contrast is outstandingly outstanding, and my sidings will be very clearly differentiated from the rest. Something you could not really do before, unless you built it yurslve.

 

Thank you M. Pritchard and your Patent Product Company.

[Pint of Adnams]

On a dawn raid into Kent from my long boat (well into Faversham, the Hobby Shop - most truly excellent), I obtained a dozen short metres by threat of parting with your English pounds.

 

On my return to the Mother Barn, where I am sacreligiously using Peco Code 83 for the BR running lines (for the Code 8 angle point work) I posed the new Peco Code 75 BH track. The contrast is outstandingly outstanding, and my sidings will be very clearly differentiated from the rest. Something you could not really do before, unless you built it yurslve.

 

Thank you M. Pritchard and your Patent Product Company.

So the good old coastguard and border service were clearly on the ball to prevent such incursions

[bertiedog]

Stephen,

 

With regards to the Hattons point motor.  How thick of a baseboard do you think the extension rod would reach through?  I haven't been able to locate this information anywheres.  Thank you in advance for any assistance.

The design allows replacement with plain steel shaft to any reasonable length, the same as the old h&M and early Zenith  point motors. The arms can be mounted anywhere along the shaft as well, and if you make a spare arm it can be used a source of drive for signals or extra switching.

I have used H&M with extension shafts up to about 6 inches long to reach up through the board and then scenery to the track bed. The whole design is basically the same as the H&M version.

 

Stephen