Bachman tooling for third parties again

[it's-er]

On 6 May Andy Y provided an excellent rundown for us on Bachmann's press day on 5 July, on this thread.

 

But I was interested to see from the current edition of Rail Express Modeller and their report on the day, that Bachmann have "rescinded" their decision of a few years back to stop doing tooling for third parties ..... and indeed are currently working on 5 such tooling projects, with another 3 under discussion. Wow!

 

Given the quality of tooling projects for third parties in the past, this is good news. Previous tooling projects that come to my mind are the plate wagons and BR Mk 1 horseboxes for TMC, the Mk 1 CCT for Invicta and of course the Southern USA 0-6-0T for Model Rail magazine. Now apparently there are more projects underway, which will be revealed in time - wonderful news!

 

John Storey

[John M Upton]

The major benefit is that Bachmann get paid to tool new models that five or so years later can be put into the mainstream range thereby cutting down their start up costs for a model.  Win, win situation.

[Hilux5972]

The major benefit is that Bachmann get paid to tool new models that five or so years later can be put into the mainstream range thereby cutting down their start up costs for a model. Win, win situation.

Not all though, Model Rail still owns the tooling for their models, and I haven't seen any models of the Prototype Deltic other than those released by Locomotion.

[JSpencer]

I wonder what the 5 exclusives toolings can be?

[Legend]

Somewhat surprised given Bachmanns backlog , but they maybe relatively simple items. I had thought Bachmann had priced themselves out of the market. It is noticeable that Locomotion have recently been using Rapido and now Oxford . Of course they maybe working on things behind the scenes.

[The Johnster]

Mr Upton is of course right to say that this is a win win and good news for everyone, but my intitial reaction is that the 94xx will be delayed even further, and that that is lose lose for the Johnster.  I need to stop mithering myself about this loco and just be happy with it when it turns up, which I am sure it will one day.  I have more Hornby toads and a rake of mineral empties to spend money on in the meantime!

[JSpencer]

If most new items end up as exclusives, eventually small model shops will suffer especially if they are locos. On the other hand if Bachmann will not do them, there are others out there who will and there is some hint in Bachmann's recent yearly press invite that they are not going to surrender ground easily to the many other suppliers out there.

I hope the proportion of exclusive vs non remains mostly non exclusives and that Small model shops have something interesting and highly sort after items to sell as well.

Each modeller will have their budget and the range of interesting items will be trimmed down be each to their own requirements. I used to buy everything Southern, but that changed this year and I now go for South Eastern items in priority.

 

That said, I don,t think the exclusives will get preference over the main range. Unless orders on the latter are really poor.

[ThaneofFife]

I wonder what the 5 exclusives toolings can be?

 

 

Maybe some of the departmental stock with etched grilles instead of printed grilles?

 

I'm a class 37 is there somewhere..........

Edited August 6, 2017 by ThaneofFife

[bennyboy]

On 6 May Andy Y provided an excellent rundown for us on Bachmann's press day on 5 July, on this thread.

 

Given the quality of tooling projects for third parties in the past, this is good news. Previous tooling projects that come to my mind are the plate wagons and BR Mk 1 horseboxes for TMC, the Mk 1 CCT for Invicta and of course the Southern USA 0-6-0T for Model Rail magazine. Now apparently there are more projects underway, which will be revealed in time - wonderful news!

 

John Storey

 

Is it really good news though? I do wonder if there is a connection between the delays in it's own products and the fact that it has been making models for other people?

[Legend]

It may actually be a reflection that there are less mainstream models to make . Most of the main classes have now been done. I suspect Bachmann bagsed the Stanier 2-6-0 5 years ago because it was one of the few main line classes that hadn't been done . Hornby are revisiting big engines again like the Duchess , maybe Bachmann have decided the future is through commissions where they can at least risk share with the commissioner. As said, not good for the local model shop.

[Mark Saunders]

It may actually be a reflection that there are less mainstream models to make . Most of the main classes have now been done. I suspect Bachmann bagsed the Stanier 2-6-0 5 years ago because it was one of the few main line classes that hadn't been done . Hornby are revisiting big engines again like the Duchess , maybe Bachmann have decided the future is through commissions where they can at least risk share with the commissioner. As said, not good for the local model shop.

 

Golden Valley are making their Janus and associated wagons available via other hobby shops, maybe not all doom and gloom!

 

Mark Saunders

[Godfrey Glyn]

The major benefit is that Bachmann get paid to tool new models that five or so years later can be put into the mainstream range thereby cutting down their start up costs for a model.  Win, win situation.

 

This cannot be a win-win situation for all if you include the smaller model shop that provides its customers with all the other things a modeller might need. I often seem to see comments on a model shop closure topic along the lines ' such a pity I always used it to get the paints and glues I need and now I will have to drive x miles to model shop Y or rely on the internet'. Model shops cannot survive on the bits and bobs we might need. They need to have a steady supply of new large price items with reasonable mark up on each item. When a model appears as an exclusive with one shop, it must by definition, reduce the income of all other retailers. Certainly that is the effect on my buying pattern, I do, like most people have a limited budget for the hobby. I am certainly not saying that this wrong, in a business terms it makes great sense for those who can commission models and for the manufacturers in this very challenging economic climate; I am saying that it is a business model that will have long term implications for the hobby as a whole and is likely to hasten the demise of more model shops.

[40F]

This cannot be a win-win situation for all if you include the smaller model shop that provides its customers with all the other things a modeller might need. I often seem to see comments on a model shop closure topic along the lines ' such a pity I always used it to get the paints and glues I need and now I will have to drive x miles to model shop Y or rely on the internet'. Model shops cannot survive on the bits and bobs we might need. They need to have a steady supply of new large price items with reasonable mark up on each item. When a model appears as an exclusive with one shop, it must by definition, reduce the income of all other retailers. Certainly that is the effect on my buying pattern, I do, like most people have a limited budget for the hobby. I am certainly not saying that this wrong, in a business terms it makes great sense for those who can commission models and for the manufacturers in this very challenging economic climate; I am saying that it is a business model that will have long term implications for the hobby as a whole and is likely to hasten the demise of more model shops.

 

 

Well said sir and a very very true statement. Third party tooling should only be for niche models and not mainstream ones.

[Horsetan]

....Third party tooling should only be for niche models and not mainstream ones.

 

If everyone seems to want a niche model, does that make it mainstream?

[trevor7598]

One problem with exclusive commissioned models is the very high price of some of them.

Take the NRM's Ivatt Atlantic, the BR weathered one, £ 181.00, and that was before  

Bacnmann's recent round of price rises. I did buy one to support the NRM. ( and Sandra gave me a sweet ).

 

The Kernow ' Thumper ' was another one, I declined on this one.

 

To be fair, I purchased a Model Rail USA tank at Warley last year for £110.00, Which I thought was good value.

and a superb model.

[Horsetan]

One problem with exclusive commissioned models is the very high price of some of them.....

 

Isn't that what makes them "exclusive", though?

[rembrow]

Only guessing but could some be models connected with other mainstream tooling that had previously been deferred. I'm thinking of the BPOT brake mail stowage van for Invicta, now that the POT mail stowage van has been tooled. Also possibly class 116 and 118 dmus for Kernow, which Kernow had planned but withdrew from when they assisted Bachmann with the class 117 research. Also does this mean only 'oo' gauge, as Bachmann have previously produced models for the n gauge society, with the MK1 based carflat currently in development. I can also see further TMC commissions as these seem to be joint projects, with Bachmann retaining the tools. These are just my ramblings.

Edited August 7, 2017 by rembrow

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

It may actually be a reflection that there are fewer mainstream models to make . Most of the main classes have now been done. I suspect Bachmann bagsed the Stanier 2-6-0 5 years ago because it was one of the few main line classes that hadn't been done ..

There remains a fair selection of classes with greater numbers in service than the Stanier 2-6-0 ever had, that were regulars on main lines into BR operation. Whether that makes them mainstream is quite another question.

 

Like it or not, I suspect that those that are not thought to be 'mainstream' will be priced proportionate to the NRM's C1 or Stirling single to reflect the smaller likely sales potential. These 'non-mainstream' subjects will get selected for production as RTR models, as commissioned or regular range items, until such time as the return becomes insufficient to justify the commercial risk. (Doubtless to much grumbling from those 'priced out' from the Flowerdean 'Morris Lodge' that they had always wanted in RTR.) the truth of it is that the RTR manufacturers have a stark choice: revisits to subjects that already have RTR models (and that's looking 'unpromising' unless the previous model is deeply flawed) or offer completely new subjects (hurrah) by whatever seems the best method to derisk the project.

[40F]

If everyone seems to want a niche model, does that make it mainstream?

 

 

No by its definition niche means a small percentage of the market. The vast majority of modellers do not want a Class XX driven by Bert on 01.01.2000 when the loco had one green panel , a defective light, and Bert wore his red shirt instead of his normal [ 0nly] blue one, they want a Class XX in as near standard condition as possible so that they can make their own special. I once heard Simon Kholer turn down a request from a well known model shop for a special particular to them   

[Joseph_Pestell]

Small model shops could perhaps form themselves into a buying group.

[The Stationmaster]

Interesting range of views and most of them - even if they don't necessarily agree with each other - are probably correct in some way or another.  

 

1. It obviously makes sense for Bachmann/Kader to take on commissions as they represent a guaranteed (one hopes) income stream which is largely risk free - assuming agreed specification and standards etc are adhered to, by both parties involved.  

 

2. I'm not entirely sure if it does delay Bachmann's own models?  Yes we were told that in the past but they have done a lot of catching up but they were very much hoist on their own petard of over-annoucing new items and really what matters is the resources available to develop, design, tool, and produce models and thsoe resources are not just in Bachmann's corner but also in Kader's main business.  If, for example, 'outside' work helps keep certain depts and people employed who would otherwise be under-employed then commissioned work will do more good for the business than harm to it.

 

3. Just what is a 'niche model'?  To me it is really something which has a very limited marketability and ever more will stay so - and there aren't too many of those about if we look at even today's more crowded and supposedly less wealthy marketplace.  Yes it might be an unusual prototype in terms of limited numbers or minimal geographical distribution but in my view that doesn't necessarily condemn it to sit in a niche if the specifier gets things right and sales take off.  Some might describe Hornby's Peckett as a 'niche model' - but hardly so in my view; it's really opening up a different market area where sales could be good.  Similarly the Bachmann SECR C  - possibly a niche Pre-Grouping livery but it seems to have sold like the proverbial hot cakes and even I bought one.  Pick the right niche, do it well, and a mainstream model emerges if the market takes to it.

 

4. Godfrey's very telling point about the model shops etc which are left out.  This is probably the most serious thing which should concern us among all the comments thus far in this thread and apart from providing continuing 'big ticket' custom for other items at 'the shops left out' I'm not sure what else we - as customers - can do?  I try to support my 'local' model shop - in fact I try to support two - with my purchases although neither can supply everything I want or need but they can go a long way towards it and I would always implore others to do the same whenever they can even if it means they don't save a handful of coins in the process.  Such shops have to survive on service and range of goods offered if they don't match bargain basement prices offered by the big discounters or go in for their own commissions - and commissions need capital which some businesses simply can't supply.   Deep discounting killed many model shops and still, I'm afraid, plays a part in the overall market and i don't think commissioned models will have quite as much effect - but the process may well hit some retailers who don't, or can't take part in it.

 

5.  The alternative?  already mentioned above isone possible alternative, a group of retailers working as a consortium to commission their (group) exclusives.  Might just work if the right retailers can get together and pick those niches which will become mainstream market.

[JSpencer]

5.  The alternative?  already mentioned above isone possible alternative, a group of retailers working as a consortium to commission their (group) exclusives.  Might just work if the right retailers can get together and pick those niches which will become mainstream market.

 

This is a nice idea, but if we look at defense programs involving several countries like the Eurofighter (Typhoon), it could end up as a complex mess for any manufacturer. For example France insisted that it met all conditions for their Air Force making the plane too expensive for everyone else, they left and developed their own Rafael, the second most expensive plane of its generation on the planet (which they can barely sell).

My point is retailers could well end up having differences of opinion of how much the model should be compromised between looks, running qualities and cost. The high level list of qualities will be easily hammered out (sprung buffers, RP25 wheels, 5 pole can, flywheel, 6 pin chip etc...). But it will be at the detailed CAD level where too many chefs will spoil the broth. Unless the manufacturer leads but then there is no difference from a normal release really - or it ends up being a release limited to those ships which can afford to fund up front.

[40F]

Small model shops could perhaps form themselves into a buying group.

 

 

I don`t think this would work as there would be too many requirements and a general agreement would be hard if not impossible to reach

Edited August 11, 2017 by 40F

[frobisher]

My point is retailers could well end up having differences of opinion of how much the model should be compromised between looks, running qualities and cost. The high level list of qualities will be easily hammered out (sprung buffers, RP25 wheels, 5 pole can, flywheel, 6 pin chip etc...). But it will be at the detailed CAD level where too many chefs will spoil the broth. Unless the manufacturer leads but then there is no difference from a normal release really - or it ends up being a release limited to those ships which can afford to fund up front.

I strongly suspect that if a small group of retailers formed a commissioning consortium, their biggest issue would in fact be agreeing on what to commission. Reviewing CAD is a trivial exercise at that point because the consortium should only have one point of contact in or out of (in this case) Bachmann and Bachmann should have an agreed point of contact to the consortium. What each party does within itself is a matter for that party.

 

Thing is, there is NO harm in a manufacturer leading the process for a model that will be narrowly available. It still doesn't make it a "normal release", because it isn't. It doesn't make it more or less accurate than a "normal release" by default. Greater commissioner input doesn't necessarily make it a better model either. The only thing you can guarantee is that a commissioned model (regardless of who leads...) will cost more than an equivalent "normal release" because of how it needs to recover its costs.

[frobisher]

I don`t think this would as there would be too many requirements and a general agreement would be hard if not impossible to reach

How so? Just off the top of my head the two biggest requirements are "What model do we want to commission? (and what scale)" and "How do we handle the commercials between each other?". If you can get to that point, the rest is trivial.