RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted November 5, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 5, 2012 Jeff as a matter of interest have you checked the clearance between your two running lines using a couple of your longest/greatest end throw etc vehicles? It would be interesting to know what sort of '6 foot' can be reliably used at the various radii you have in your running lines. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold beast66606 Posted November 5, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 5, 2012 Jeff, (imho) When putting a gap in copper clad sleepers, do it near to a rail, it's then not as visible, otherwise, later in the build, the eye is drawn to the middle of the sleepers where the indentations (from the missing copper) all line up - as long as the gap is present it matters not where it is. I use a mini drill with a fine slitting disc and let it "float" (i.e. minimal pressure) on the copper, slowly working back and forth until a gap is made, this is a slow process but looks better (imho) as the carrier is hardly touched - I spent several years working in a metallurgy lab preparing all sorts of materials for microscopic analysis - that experience occasionally comes in useful. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Physicsman Posted November 5, 2012 Author RMweb Premium Share Posted November 5, 2012 Jeff, (imho) When putting a gap in copper clad sleepers, do it near to a rail, it's then not as visible, otherwise, later in the build, the eye is drawn to the middle of the sleepers where the indentations (from the missing copper) all line up - as long as the gap is present it matters not where it is. I use a mini drill with a fine slitting disc and let it "float" (i.e. minimal pressure) on the copper, slowly working back and forth until a gap is made, this is a slow process but looks better (imho) as the carrier is hardly touched - I spent several years working in a metallurgy lab preparing all sorts of materials for microscopic analysis - that experience occasionally comes in useful. Dave: good suggestion re. cutting near the edge. Makes sense. I'm using a Dremel with a cutting disc - problem is I don't have a "featherlight touch", even though I try! Jeff 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Physicsman Posted November 5, 2012 Author RMweb Premium Share Posted November 5, 2012 Jeff as a matter of interest have you checked the clearance between your two running lines using a couple of your longest/greatest end throw etc vehicles? It would be interesting to know what sort of '6 foot' can be reliably used at the various radii you have in your running lines. Hi Mike. Not done this in a measuring sense - as in taking readings. Only checked that coaches will pass each other when coming out of the fiddle yard, lower right on the plan. Adjacent radii there are around 24/30" - the smallest by far on the layout. No problems with clearance. Would you like to know what the clearances are for various curves on the layout? If so I can measure this - though you may have to wait a day or so until that particular corner has track laid. I'll use a couple of coaches. You've got me interested now! Jeff Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Physicsman Posted November 5, 2012 Author RMweb Premium Share Posted November 5, 2012 I think you are right going for Cobalts in the fiddle yard, Jeff; I pondered the same choice myself, but came to the conclusion that tunouts in the storage area may get even more use than those in the scenic sections, so it actually was the area most justified in having a solid, reliable turnout soloution. Quick question: How big are those insulation gaps on the front of the frogs on the pair of turnouts on the left? It may just be the camera angle, but they seem to be very large... Which photo are you referring to, Scott? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Rowsley17D Posted November 5, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 5, 2012 Dave: good suggestion re. cutting near the edge. Makes sense. I'm using a Dremel with a cutting disc - problem is I don't have a "featherlight touch", even though I try! Jeff Jeff you probably know this already but... Gordon cuts his gaps beside the rail that is nearst to the viewer and so is hardly noticable. Others use a cone-shaped grinding stone moved back and forth between the rails so there is no definite gap. Others fill the gaps with Milliput before painting but this seem laborious to me. I have hardly had any problems with my current Peco hidden fiddle yard so may just stick with it in future, unless somebody wants to make me an offer on several dozen yards of the stuff, we don't all have a lump sum to fritter away on our hobby 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Joseph_Pestell Posted November 5, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 5, 2012 If you have wheels, back-to-backs, etc set up for use on Marcway, then Peco 75 should be fine for a fiddleyard and rather less trouble. Code 100 would be a different matter. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Physicsman Posted November 5, 2012 Author RMweb Premium Share Posted November 5, 2012 If you have wheels, back-to-backs, etc set up for use on Marcway, then Peco 75 should be fine for a fiddleyard and rather less trouble. Code 100 would be a different matter. Hi Joseph. It's not a mechanical or technical issue re. using SMP. I like the stuff - it's light years better in appearance than Peco - and what the end result, sidings or otherwise, looks like is important to me. On a cost basis I should use Peco - especially as I have a box of 25 yard lengths already purchased for the job! Call me irrational, but it's what I feel is the right thing to do for me! Cheers, Jeff Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Physicsman Posted November 5, 2012 Author RMweb Premium Share Posted November 5, 2012 Jeff you probably know this already but... Gordon cuts his gaps beside the rail that is nearst to the viewer and so is hardly noticable. Others use a cone-shaped grinding stone moved back and forth between the rails so there is no definite gap. Others fill the gaps with Milliput before painting but this seem laborious to me. I have hardly had any problems with my current Peco hidden fiddle yard so may just stick with it in future, unless somebody wants to make me an offer on several dozen yards of the stuff, we don't all have a lump sum to fritter away on our hobby Lump sum - what's that? Haven't received it yet... I also don't intend to touch it, once received. It will be invested and sit there, hopefully untouched, for a few years. I planned my retirement, as well as I could, 5 years ago. Since then I've been saving like hell and it's that reservoir that'll be used, gradually, along with my pension. A lifestyle choice I'm proud to have made. After a certain age you look around and find the things you "need" dwindling to very little - other than the basics. Amazing how a change of mental attitude can have such a big effect. Jeff Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted November 5, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 5, 2012 Hi Mike. Not done this in a measuring sense - as in taking readings. Only checked that coaches will pass each other when coming out of the fiddle yard, lower right on the plan. Adjacent radii there are around 24/30" - the smallest by far on the layout. No problems with clearance. Would you like to know what the clearances are for various curves on the layout? If so I can measure this - though you may have to wait a day or so until that particular corner has track laid. I'll use a couple of coaches. You've got me interested now! Jeff It would be interesting - and probably quite useful to those of us who run 'narrow gauge' railways where getting a sensible measurement for the 6foot is - I think - part of the illusion of covering up the undergauge track on double and multiple track layouts. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Physicsman Posted November 5, 2012 Author RMweb Premium Share Posted November 5, 2012 It would be interesting - and probably quite useful to those of us who run 'narrow gauge' railways where getting a sensible measurement for the 6foot is - I think - part of the illusion of covering up the undergauge track on double and multiple track layouts. I can position 2 "63' coaches" at the "apex" of a variety of curves and measure the separation between the coach centres and the window-to-window separation. I think the mainline has the following main curved pairings (I'll measure it properly when I do the "experiment"): near viaduct 60"/54", leaving station towards viaduct 54"/48", approaching station near goods shed 48"/42" and entering tunnel to fiddle yard 30"/24". These are nominal figures. I used Tracksettas for guidance, but the curves are all transitional, with variable radii. The main thing I tried to achieve was to keep the line separation between 30mm and 32mm, whatever the radius. Hope that sounds ok, Mike. If I've misinterpreted, please let me know! Jeff Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Rowsley17D Posted November 5, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 5, 2012 Lump sum - what's that? Haven't received it yet... I also don't intend to touch it, once received. It will be invested and sit there, hopefully untouched, for a few years. I planned my retirement, as well as I could, 5 years ago. Since then I've been saving like hell and it's that reservoir that'll be used, gradually, along with my pension. A lifestyle choice I'm proud to have made. After a certain age you look around and find the things you "need" dwindling to very little - other than the basics. Amazing how a change of mental attitude can have such a big effect. Jeff The civil service are a bit more organised Jeff and get it out the week of retirement but then I think private organisation Capita will be seeing to your payout when it eventually comes, no doubt they are getting a bit more interest%. Hope to "review" my position regarding retirement in a couple of years when the big six oh comes round! Don't blame you for going all SMP etc if it's all on show would look strange to have one side SMP and the other Peco, then you would have to do a "Larry" and rip it all up again. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted November 5, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 5, 2012 (edited) I can position 2 "63' coaches" at the "apex" of a variety of curves and measure the separation between the coach centres and the window-to-window separation. I think the mainline has the following main curved pairings (I'll measure it properly when I do the "experiment"): near viaduct 60"/54", leaving station towards viaduct 54"/48", approaching station near goods shed 48"/42" and entering tunnel to fiddle yard 30"/24". These are nominal figures. I used Tracksettas for guidance, but the curves are all transitional, with variable radii. The main thing I tried to achieve was to keep the line separation between 30mm and 32mm, whatever the radius. Hope that sounds ok, Mike. If I've misinterpreted, please let me know! Jeff What would be probably the simplest way of presenting things are the two radii (taken off a Tracksetta seems as good a way as any, and simpler than most) with the distance between the two 6foot side rails (measured over the inside edges of those rails) as it is probably easier to measure, and set out, from the clear evidence of a rail edge than it is from a far from clear track centre line. The rolling stock maximum interference/minimum clearance would be from end throw of a vehicle on the inside track to centre throw of a vehicle on the outside (of curve) track. In old money the minimum permissible static clearance between the two was 18 inches vehicle body to vehicle body at waist height but that does not take account of the kinematic envelope of the vehicle and is very tight by modern standards, or by any standards on country routes. Edited November 5, 2012 by The Stationmaster Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Physicsman Posted November 5, 2012 Author RMweb Premium Share Posted November 5, 2012 The civil service are a bit more organised Jeff and get it out the week of retirement but then I think private organisation Capita will be seeing to your payout when it eventually comes, no doubt they are getting a bit more interest%. Hope to "review" my position regarding retirement in a couple of years when the big six oh comes round! Don't blame you for going all SMP etc if it's all on show would look strange to have one side SMP and the other Peco, then you would have to do a "Larry" and rip it all up again. You are correct about Capita. Money paid on my birthday. At least it was within 50p of what I expected!! The fiddle yard is below the hillside, but there should be good access to it and I'd rather it looked the same as the main layout. I'm planning to fix the viaduct in position later this week - I've got to add a small backscene behind it, at arch level, but I've a way of doing that later on. So I'll cork the viaduct, fix it (just a few screws) and extend the curve over to the other side... then the fiddle yard can commence. As for "doing a Larry". It was predictable he'd start pulling the Peco up. Have to admit I "did a Jeff" today. A couple of sections of track weren't up to (my) standard, so they've been ripped up and replaced. I'd better go and see the shrink about this! Jeff 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Physicsman Posted November 5, 2012 Author RMweb Premium Share Posted November 5, 2012 (edited) I think I'm seeing double Mike. I think you better had go to Specsavers... Yep, I understand what you are asking and will be able to provide that data for you by Wednesday - when I've got the "24/30" curve fully laid. World events of great import: will Obama be re-elected/a new Chinese ruling clan/Robbie williams is number one... and we talk about "kinematic envelopes" and "static clearances". What are we on? Lol!! I think we have our priorities right!! Jeff Edited November 5, 2012 by Physicsman 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted November 5, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 5, 2012 Lump sum - what's that? Haven't received it yet... I also don't intend to touch it, once received. It will be invested and sit there, hopefully untouched, for a few years. I planned my retirement, as well as I could, 5 years ago. Jeff I hope you find somewhere safe and bountiful to put it Jeff because as things are at the moment banks are not even keeping pace with inflation. Most of my lump sum (received in the week following retirement I seem to recall - but Railway Pensions are usually pretty much on the ball) went to clear the mortgage which had been increased to, mainly, fund the house extension a few years earlier. A lot of careful calculation showed that was the best way to use it Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted November 5, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 5, 2012 Yep, I understand what you are asking and will be able to provide that data for you by Wednesday - when I've got the "24/30" curve fully laid. World events of great import: will Obama be re-elected/a new Chinese ruling clan/Robbie williams is number one... and we talk about "kinematic envelopes" and "static clearances". What are we on? Lol!! I think we have our priorities right!! Jeff Spec saving duly done Only thing I hope about the above list of 'great' (???) events is that we keep our priorities on the top of the list and that the Chinese keep on making some nice toy trains for us Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Physicsman Posted November 5, 2012 Author RMweb Premium Share Posted November 5, 2012 I hope you find somewhere safe and bountiful to put it Jeff because as things are at the moment banks are not even keeping pace with inflation. Most of my lump sum (received in the week following retirement I seem to recall - but Railway Pensions are usually pretty much on the ball) went to clear the mortgage which had been increased to, mainly, fund the house extension a few years earlier. A lot of careful calculation showed that was the best way to use it We're going a bit off track, but - what-the-hell, it's MY thread!! Fortunately, I paid my mortgage off last year when an endowment matured. You're right about the return on savings - utter rubbish. Never mind, us "plebs" (to quote a well-known politician) have to put up with it - for the greater good. Knowing that we are all in it together gives me a wonderful glow as I lie in bed at night, counting sheep. Anyway, I'm having a break from the bunker for a couple of hours. I'll go back out later - when the temperature has plummeted - and do some more sleepers. I converted 75% of the garages, but the non-insulated section still needs to be closed off with an inside door... thermodynamics being what they are means it gets bl***y cold in there if I switch the heater off. All good fun! Jeff 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Physicsman Posted November 5, 2012 Author RMweb Premium Share Posted November 5, 2012 Scott. Re. your post 1275. I'm guessing you are referring to this... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jukebox Posted November 5, 2012 Share Posted November 5, 2012 LOL - yes those were the one's Jeff. I'm sure with weathering and ballasting they will look fine. If not, you'll be cutting some black plasticard Dutchmen... ( I do like how I can post a question before bedtime, you query it, and then answer it yourself, all before I wake up. ) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Physicsman Posted November 5, 2012 Author RMweb Premium Share Posted November 5, 2012 Scott, I'm glad I worked out what you were referring to! It's been a bit of a crazy day on the layout, having spent a "bit" of time replacing one or two bits of track... Quite happy with the whole thing now, so normal service will resume tomorrow with curves at both ends. Anyway, what conundrum do you intend to set me before I go to bed? I've been dreaming of soldering and Cobalt fitting - maybe my solution will come in some kind of "foretelling"! Lol. Best wishes, Jeff Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
coachmann Posted November 5, 2012 Share Posted November 5, 2012 (edited) As for "doing a Larry". It was predictable he'd start pulling the Peco up. You haven't done a Larry until you have electric sawed your layout and carted it off to the the council tip in bite-size chunks, then pulled the shed down and sold it to the postman. A four year break must have done me some good as I havent had to urge to do it this time! Anyway your layout is coming along well. How soon will you have completed a full circle? Edited November 5, 2012 by coachmann Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Physicsman Posted November 5, 2012 Author RMweb Premium Share Posted November 5, 2012 You haven't done a Larry until you have electric sawed your layout and carted it off to the the council tip in bite-size chunks, then pulled the shed down and sold it to the postman. A four year break must have done me some good as I havent had to urge to do it this time! Anyway your layout is coming along well. How soon will you have completed a full circle? Evening Larry. I'm approaching the fiddle yard from both ends tomorrow. I'll need to order some more SMP and a few turnouts, then I'll get the fiddle yard mainline in - circle completed - in the next week or so. Still, no hurry - and it's amazing how many tasks there are to keep us busy. I wonder if I'll manage to run a loco on a "barebones" circuit by Christmas? Jeff Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jukebox Posted November 6, 2012 Share Posted November 6, 2012 Jeff - why don't you try and slip some shim/card under the outside edge of the curve as you lay it as a test, just to see what a little superelevation would do for K/L? I really think it's a very strong visual aspect of the prototype that you will notice when you model it, and wish you had done if you don't, By all means "run it out" so there is no super as you enter the turnouts, but I think the impact is strong enough that you will want to do it... Something to sleep on? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Physicsman Posted November 6, 2012 Author RMweb Premium Share Posted November 6, 2012 Morning Scott (afternoon in Perth). The elevation was a good idea and I'd have been quite prepared to do it if it was just on a set of simple curves. But with pointwork, motors and crossovers, I want to keep it simple. So I've put the idea to bed - until the next layout! Talking of curves. Time to go and fit some more track after yesterday's irritations. Hopefully progress will resume. More SMP/turnouts to be ordered for the fiddle yard later. Jeff Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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