Pragmatic Pre-Grouping - Mikkel's Workbench

[Dave John]

I know you are all discussing wagons, but scroll in on the first photo and have a look at the telegraph pole in the background. You don't see many of those modelled. 

 

The crane and the gas lamp are rather interesting too. 

[Donw]

I know you are all discussing wagons, but scroll in on the first photo and have a look at the telegraph pole in the background. You don't see many of those modelled. 

 

The crane and the gas lamp are rather interesting too. 

 

The one on the right hand side looks fairly normal there appears to be one of the twin pole joined at the top type. These were an early type when underground cables were rare and tended to be close to the exchange in larger towns. They were replaced fairly early on. It would be a nightmare to maodel as without the large number of wires in all directions the effect would be lost. 

Don

[wagonman]

Very interesting discussion, gents. As usual it is not so much the individual layout that matters but the broader knowledge that comes to light and is shared (and in my case, learnt).

 

 

 

I have tried to date the photo to see if it's pre- or post pooling, but apart from the obvious post-1904 date (GW livery) it's all a bit inconclusive. The wagons appear mostly to have single sided brakes but it's not very clear. The NER wagon seems to be this diagram introduced in 1903 so that does not help. The yard seems to be more built up than in a 1904/05 image of Vastern Road in GWR Goods Services, but it could be the angle. C&G Ayres vehicles appear in both pictures but they were probably GWR agents for decades.

 

The seller of the image (who curiously seems to have withdrawn all auctions since yesterday) states that the image appears in GWR Miscellany p 183, so I will look out for that volume. Not that it's particularly important, but now I'm curious! 

 

 

 

Thanks for the plant pots idea, just the sort of excuse I like   The thoughts about routing have not really occurred to me before - something to think about! It would be interesting to draw up a plan for how foreign wagons arrive at Farthing.

 

As for the history of the N&SR, I refer to gwr.org.uk where it is stated that:

 

"As most will know, the N&SR sought boldly to connect Swindon and Bournemouth, and thereby link the Midlands and the North with the "Gold Coast" in the South. In the event, the line never actually made it further than Salisbury, facing tough opposition from the combined forces of the L&SWR, the S&D and the M&SWJR. The line thus suffered much the same fate as the D&NSR further East, ending up as little more than a cross-country route linking Swindon, Farthing and Salisbury. In 1891, the line was taken over in full by the GWR."

So the N&SR was not so much sponsored by the MR but rather faced resistance from it through the M&SWJR and the L&SWR. It therefore turned to the GWR for help, who supported it half-heartedly, ie enough to secure a new crosscountry line, but not enough to risk the uneasy truce with the LSWR and MR in the area (this is basically the story of the DN&SR). 

 

I believe there is a saying in Italian: It is not true, but I believe it.

 

 

From memory, the NSR introduced their large lettering style in 1912 so the photo is likely to be after the introduction of common user arrangements. As you surmise C&G Ayres were GWR cartage agents for many years. I'm puzzled by your reference to GWR Miscellany p.183 as my copy doesn't have any page numbers, only plate numbers, and those only go up to 178. I have definitely seen the photo reproduced somewhere but can't for the moment find it. If it's in a Russell book I wouldn't necessarily trust the caption too much...

 

Many years ago, back in my EM gauge days, I 'converted' a D299 kit into a D351. I might even have it somewhere still.

[MikeOxon]

......I'm puzzled by your reference to GWR Miscellany p.183 as my copy doesn't have any page numbers, only plate numbers, and those only go up to 178...............

There are two volumes - the 2nd takes up the numbers where the 1st leaves off.

[bgman]

quote "I see Bill Bedford does a very attractive kit for such a wagon: http://www.mousa.biz...sr_wagons4.html"

 

Hi Mikkel,

 

I've just caught up again on this interesting and informative thread and found your link which reveals some very interesting products are in the pipeline.

Have you tried one of the resin kits which are available? I'd be interested to see one on the bench.

 

Grahame

[wagonman]

There are two volumes - the 2nd takes up the numbers where the 1st leaves off.

 

 

Ah yes, my look through of volume 2 was too cursory! Russell dates the photo to 1910 which is clearly wrong as the NSR wagon is in post 1912 livery (according to Chadwick). My original estimate of the date still stands.

Edited January 6, 2017 by wagonman

[Compound2632]

quote "I see Bill Bedford does a very attractive kit for such a wagon: http://www.mousa.biz...sr_wagons4.html"

 

Hi Mikkel,

 

I've just caught up again on this interesting and informative thread and found your link which reveals some very interesting products are in the pipeline.

Have you tried one of the resin kits which are available? I'd be interested to see one on the bench.

 

Grahame

 

There were several accounts of building the LNWR D32 covered goods wagon when it first came out - forgive me for linking to my own. I'm doing a second one now along with a LNWR D1 open wagon - the fold-up sprung W-iron unit is very straightforward; now I'm using MJT bearings I've avoided the splaying axleguard saga. Painting resin didn't seem to be the problem I feared it might be. I've not tried one of the 3D-printed kits yet.

 

Edit: I've added a post about what comes in the box from Mousa.

Edited January 6, 2017 by Compound2632

[Mikkel]

So the Reading Vastern Road yard photo has been dated to after the pooling. What an oracle RMweb is, thanks very much Wagonman and everyone.

 

Yes, the crane is interesting. There is a another picture featuring that particular one, and others in the same style were used in Readings' transfer shed. I would like to feature one either on my current layout or the next one, especially as is reminds me of this restored jib crane down the road here in Elsinore:

 

 

That's Hamlet's castle in the background by the way.

 

 

[bgman]

There were several accounts of building the LNWR D32 covered goods wagon when it first came out - forgive me for linking to my own. I'm doing a second one now along with a LNWR D1 open wagon - the fold-up sprung W-iron unit is very straightforward; now I'm using MJT bearings I've avoided the splaying axleguard saga. Painting resin didn't seem to be the problem I feared it might be. I've not tried one of the 3D-printed kits yet.

 

Edit: I've added a post about what comes in the box from Mousa.

Thank you Mikkel, I've looked at your link and it confirmed my concerns about resin being mis-shapen. I've had similar problems with my own castings but they can soon be rectified as per your description.

[Mikkel]

Grahame I think you mean Compound2632

 

But we seem to have a very similar taste in wagons, as you can see here. Alas I have got no further than admiring the packaging. Which I rather like btw. Maybe I should do the world's first and only "Bill Bedford kit unboxing video" 

 

[Tony Teague]

I’ve used liquid lead as usual. Funny how weight makes a wagon feel much more like an actual piece of rolling stock, rather than just bits of plastic.

 

 

 

When you use liquid lead in this way, under the floor, what do you do to prevent tiny balls of lead from dropping off one at a time onto the track, into the pointwork etc?

When I have used liquid lead, even if I flood it with superglue, I have not been able to avoid some "drop off".

Tony

[Worsdell forever]

When you use liquid lead in this way, under the floor, what do you do to prevent tiny balls of lead from dropping off one at a time onto the track, into the pointwork etc?

When I have used liquid lead, even if I flood it with superglue, I have not been able to avoid some "drop off".

Tony

I find it best to build it up in layers.

[Compound2632]

When you use liquid lead in this way, under the floor, what do you do to prevent tiny balls of lead from dropping off one at a time onto the track, into the pointwork etc?

When I have used liquid lead, even if I flood it with superglue, I have not been able to avoid some "drop off".

Tony

 

I find this highly suggestive in the light of the (rather theoretical) working horse discussion going on on Castle Aching. 

[Mikkel]

When you use liquid lead in this way, under the floor, what do you do to prevent tiny balls of lead from dropping off one at a time onto the track, into the pointwork etc?

When I have used liquid lead, even if I flood it with superglue, I have not been able to avoid some "drop off".

Tony

 

I see what you mean, but it's not something I have noticed as a problem yet. I use the Deluxe Models Liquid Gravity, and their Rocket Card glue for fixing it in place (as recommended by them - not surprisingly).

 

I've just checked my track where these vehicles have run and could not find any balls having dropped off. I also had a look under the wagons weighted with liquid lead. Here is an extreme close-up of one wagon, which was built in December 2014.  Some of the balls appear loose in the photo, but when poking at them with a scalpel they are firmly fixed.  It seems there is some cracking - which could be a little worrying for the longer term? - but so far everything seems to be stuck well in place.

 

Edited January 7, 2017 by Mikkel

[Tony Teague]

I see what you mean, but it's not something I have noticed as a problem yet. I use the Deluxe Models Liquid Gravity, and their Rocket Card glue for fixing it in place (as recommended by them - not surprisingly).

 

I've just checked my track where these vehicles have run and could not find any balls having dropped off. I also had a look under the wagons weighted with liquid lead. Here is an extreme close-up of one wagon, which was built in December 2014.  Some of the balls appear loose in the photo, but when poking at them with a scalpel they are firmly fixed.  It seems there is some cracking - which could be a little worrying for the longer term? - but so far everything seems to be stuck well in place.

 

DSCN2549.jpg

Mikkel

Thanks - obviously this is not a problem with a closed wagon or one with a load, but I was interested to understand how you had managed it for an open, empty wagon.

Tony

[Re6/6]

CK and l came to the conclusion at the same time that roofing lead is the ideal for open wagons as either an additional or replacement floor (build the wagon around the lead)

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/9456-adding-weight-to-kitbuilt-wagons/page-2     (post #33)

 

I have a certain mistrust in those small balls and glue failing. As Nick said the resultant weight is usually about what is required.

Edited January 7, 2017 by Re6/6

[Guy Rixon]

I see what you mean, but it's not something I have noticed as a problem yet. I use the Deluxe Models Liquid Gravity, and their Rocket Card glue for fixing it in place (as recommended by them - not surprisingly). [...]

 

Hmm. I thought that the Rocket Card glue was dilute PVA; perhaps I'm mis-informed. PVA has a known problem of inducing lead packing to expand, by developing lead salts on the surface - and the lead balls have an awful lot of surface. Fingers crossed that your wagon doesn't swell and split over time.

[Mikkel]

My use of the term "liquid lead" is misleading, sorry. It is not actually lead. It is labelled as a "non-toxic metal" by the manufacturer.

 

I tried to look for a data sheet but couldn't find any. There's a video and etc at the bottom of the manufacturers page: https://www.deluxematerials.co.uk/gb/rc-modelling/83-liquid-gravity-5060243900470.html

[raymw]

I would guess it was bismuth shot - either pure or alloyed. About £70.00 a kilo from reloading suppliers, maybe cheaper on ebay.

[N15class]

Hmm. I thought that the Rocket Card glue was dilute PVA; perhaps I'm mis-informed. PVA has a known problem of inducing lead packing to expand, by developing lead salts on the surface - and the lead balls have an awful lot of surface. Fingers crossed that your wagon doesn't swell and split over time.

PVA is only a problem if used in a confined space under a wagon well ventilated is fine.

[Dave John]

Thanks mikkel. That pic of the crane led me to a very enjoyable few hours exploring the railways of Copenhagen on google earth. It really is a civilised looking place. 

 

I messed about with a similar thing to the liquid lead a long while back, fishing shot in pva. I too had a an expansion and cracking problem; I suspect the pva water content forms oxides. So I now tend to make a former from scrap brass etch and fill it with old fashioned plumbers solder, of which I have a stack. The resulting custom weights I just stick into spaces with a spot of silicone, any trouble they can be just pulled out.  

[Mikkel]

All very useful info.

 

If the concern is about, (i) the reaction of glues in enclosed spaces and (ii) the reaction of PVA with lead specifically, then perhaps the Deluxe Materials product is OK underneath a wagon as it is not enclosed and not lead. If the issue is more with PVA in general, then my wagons could be in trouble.

 

I shall henceforth be conducting a regular annual inspection of the wagons so constructed. The results will be reported here every January, and audited by the G.W.R. Mechanics' Institution of New Swindon and your good selves. I shall also be considering other methods, including a non-PVA glue, and lead sheet as dicussed on the thread linked to above (although I like to minimize the toxic stuff).

[Mikkel]

Thanks mikkel. That pic of the crane led me to a very enjoyable few hours exploring the railways of Copenhagen on google earth. It really is a civilised looking place.

 

There is certainly some unexploited modelling potential around here, especially for historic layouts. We do not have a long tradition for prototype layout building in Denmark, so there are many unexplored opportunities. The number of kits and one-man-band manufacturers has also historically been more limited than what you see (saw?) on the UK scene (it's a small market). There have been changes in recent decades though, and there are some excellent prototype layouts being built now. As for Danish "civilisation", much of it is hyped to be honest. This book uncovers some of the myths. 

 

On a related topic, the rather nice Norwegian modelling mag "MJ Bladet" dropped though the letterbox the other day, and a certain slipper boy appears in the pages 

 

 

This is a modified "Scandic" version of the slipper boy story, written in Danish and with a more elaborated section on the layout itself in order to explain some of the British particularities.  Many thanks to the MJB team for featuring the layout, and to BRM for being open-minded on this.

Edited January 8, 2017 by Mikkel

[Quarryscapes]

Grahame I think you mean Compound2632

 

But we seem to have a very similar taste in wagons, as you can see here. Alas I have got no further than admiring the packaging. Which I rather like btw. Maybe I should do the world's first and only "Bill Bedford kit unboxing video" 

 

DSCN2545b.jpg

 

I also bought the exact same pair! Although I binned the sprung underframe. 

 

LNWR in Pen Llŷn by Alan Jones, on Flickr

[Tony Teague]

All very useful info.

 

If the concern is about, (i) the reaction of glues in enclosed spaces and (ii) the reaction of PVA with lead specifically, then perhaps the Deluxe Materials product is OK underneath a wagon as it is not enclosed and not lead. If the issue is more with PVA in general, then my wagons could be in trouble.

 

I shall henceforth be conducting a regular annual inspection of the wagons so constructed. The results will be reported here every January, and audited by the G.W.R. Mechanics' Institution of New Swindon and your good selves. I shall also be considering other methods, including a non-PVA glue, and lead sheet as dicussed on the thread linked to above (although I like to minimize the toxic stuff).

Hi Mikkel

It is for this reason - and having experienced the PVA problem - that I now use superglue to flood the liquid lead.

Tony