Western Star

Albury awaits with appreciation abounding.

I like your approach to the tumbler shaft....  I shall try to use that idea on forthcoming FoD minerals.

The provision of references is much appreciated.

rgds, G

Did you add any representation of either the large bung on the cask side (for filling) or the small bung on the end (for the tap)?

Or any marking to represent the owning brewery?

regards, Graham

Hunt & Son is a super wagon.  As you have observed rightly, the wagon has been written with care and excellence, the model stands equal to the best in the 7mm world.

regards, Graham

Oh, come on Ian, you need to show us.

Some of us know that your 3D drawing has incised lettering and numbering ....   and that lettering is readable when the 3D dwg is printed.  Next thing we know is that NIck maybe going to ask you for replacement solebars for 4171.

regards, Graham

Ends between sides or sides between ends...

Until a few minutes back I believed that GW wagons were ends between sides and yet here, for my education, is a statement that requires re-adjustment of my memory.  Where did you find this nugget of GW wagon design?

regards, Graham

Nick,

GWR 1908 wagonary down by the sea-side might require a 3'1", solid spoke, 10 spoke wagon wheel...  and that appears solely in the Slater's range.  For example, the ballast hoppers to diagram P7.

Given that your blog post is - to my mind - about finding what appeals to you in regard to 7mm carriage / wagon wheels then I think that you have covered the most probable bases (especially if availability, consistency, range are valid criteria in the selection process).

I do not use Peartree or Roxey because I want pinpoint axles and spoked wheels.

I do not use Alan Gibson because of supply worries and loose tyres.

I do not use Wizard  as, I believe, there is no S7 option.

As for Dapol, Heljan, Accurascale...  there is no S7 interest from those manufacturers.

regards, Graham

Is there a way to "quote" from a blog post?

I have copied the bulk of Nick's blog into this post and then inserted my comments.

[Start of Nick's blog post]

This time I am returning to that ubiquitous item of the early 20th century railway, the private owner coal wagon - in this case, a 6-plank end-door type built by Gloucester RCW, in the livery of 'United' collieries. The model is of course the familiar Slaters kit, and so is very similar to a build to the 'Ocean' wagon I have posted about previously:  The big difference with this one is that it is empty, not loaded, so there is full interior detailing needed, and that is the focus of this post.

I decided to paint the etches after they were filed to fit, but before gluing them in. I gave them a coat of light grey etch primer, then of a creamy 'new wood' colour, followed by some knots and marks in brown and gunmetal.

<GDB> - I have problems with the idea of wagon sheeting circa 1900 - being made from wood with knots.  I recall reading, back in the midst of time, that wagon specification carried the phrase "all timber to be free from knots...  shakes...  and shivers".  Now if that applied circa 1900 then draw your own conclusions.  Kit, @kitpw, are you able to comment on this point.

The etchings have extensions to the ronwork on the end door, to be wrapped around the horizontal bar that forms the pivot to hinge the door. The intention of the etches is the bar sits below the top of the door, and the ends of the bar go into holes in the corner plate either side. Gloucester wagons generally have the bar above the height of the wagon....

<GDB> - sorry to disagree with you on this...  the evidence to be found throughout the PO books published by Lightmoor Press is that circa 1900 a good number of Gloster wagons have the door bar passing through the top plank of the sheeting (supported by an eye in the top of the end knee).  Later wagon builds do go in the direction that you have described.

I made the pieces that support the ends of the bar from some scrap etch:

<GDB> - and the plates that stop the bar from coming out of the eyes?

The DJ Parkins etches include the capping strips, with etched marks to be pushed out to represent the bolts that hold these in position.

<GDB> - as yet I have not seen any contemporary wagon models with the nuts under the curb rail to prevent the capping strip bolts from coming loose.

To be clear, I have no experience of the MMP product that Nick has used and I do not wish to offer or imply any criticism of that product.

regards, Graham

BTW - I use solely Slater's wheels for my S7 layout so that I get consistent running.

Peco (Steve Haynes, Product / Marketing Manager)  said to me - in my capacity pre-Covid as S7 Technical Officer - that Peco bought 7mm wheels from Slaters.  In discussion with David White (Slater's supremo), at about the same time that I spoke with Peco, he said that Slater's supplied Peco with 7mm wheels...  not surprising as Parkside-Dundas used Slater's 0-FS and S7 wheels for the 7mm kit range.

I recollect that Webster's may have manufactured their own 7mm wheels before their range of 7mm kits was taken over by Peco.

regards, Graham

Just in case...  to avoid confusion...

Slater's Plastikard produces wheels for O-gauge (31.5, 32.0 mm) and wheels for S7 track (33mm gauge).  Mike, like me, uses the S7 wagon wheelsets from Slaters, the range of wheels for wagons and coaches is here:-

https://slatersplastikard.com/wheels/scale7/S7CandW.php

The S7 carriage and wagon wheels are available to all, the S7 loco wheels for 33mm gauge track are available only from the S7 Group Stores.

regards, Graham

3 hours ago, magmouse said:

Is there somewhere where we can see the work of the group?

The five involved in this crazy escapade are  Chris Brown, Ian Haynes, myself, my son and Tony Overton...  yes Stephen, I do mean to say that one of us likes D299, D305 and D351.  The status-quo is that we have a 3D model to produce sides, ends, doors and floor for a 4-plk body and that model owes much to GWR dwgs. 7925 and 11939.  The model has been printed in Hampshire and in Oxfordshire and is subject to revisions.  The underframe is an etch using 10th, 15th and 18th n/s so as to get decent fidelity to the prototype - the phototools require revision to accomodate what we have learnt from dwg. 7925.  I shall need to ask permission of those who hold IPR before I can post a photo here of the 3DP body on the n/s underframe.

At this time we have not found a photo of a wagon built to dwg.11939... such can be identified, we believe, by counting the number of bolts holding the T stanchions to the end sheeting.  So if you can see a four plank wagon with T stanchions and a total of ten bolts (four for the top plank then two for each of the remaining planks) holding one stanchion to the sheeting then please speak up.  To complete this bit of the story, the two earliest drawings that we have show a four plank wagon with L angle at the ends and the third dwg in the sequence (7925) has T stanchions with bolts "staggered" so that there is a bolt to the left, then a bolt to the right, followed by a bolt to the left

regards, Graham

Returning to the sheet rail support for GWR 4-plk wagons, there is a group of S7 modellers who are collaborating in the construction of 4-plk wagons for our layouts set in the late Victorian / early Edwardian period.  The research for this project has found at least 60 photos of 4-plk wagons where the wagon identity is known and there are a good number of those wagons with sheet rails.  Of interest to this blog is that there are two versions of where the sheet support is fitted to the end sheeting, viz:-

* with the cruciform fitting on the first plank up from the end rail;

* with the cruciform fitting on the second plank up from the end rail.

We have four dwgs. for four plank wagons, those dwgs. are dated between 1880 and 1899, none of those dwgs. show sheet supports.  As yet we have not found a dwg. for the fitting of sheet rails to wagons and neither do we know, yet, if the sheet bar is a part which is common to the different arrangements.

regards, Graham

I shall try to follow this approach for our wagons.  What colour of "brick" have you used?  Roughly how many bricks per layer?

thank you, Graham

For the last fifty years or so I have worked with the solebar back-to-back measurement being 6'0" for wooden solebar wagons and 6'3" for steel channel solebar wagons (this is a generic view, there are some companies which used 5"11" B2B).

In 7mm I expect GWR wagons to have solebars which are 42mm apart (at least)....  so how do I align my understanding with what you have written in this post?

regards, Graham

"We" - the global fraternity of 7mm modellers - have a problem with this wagon and it is a problem that has been brought to Slater's attention.

Ian Pope and I have spent many hours looking through the GWR Freighter registers - predecessor to RCH registers - and have not been able to locate this wagon.  Ian has a copy  of the Gloster official for this wagon and there are no likely orders in the registers which could correspond with the photo date.  Unfortunately the details of the plates on the wagon solebar do not identify the wagon precisely and hence a match with the registers is not possible.

Sorry, regards, Graham

On 04/01/2023 at 09:55, magmouse said:

A photo of the single trial use of the Marillier type by the GWR appears in both Atkins and Russell's GW Wagons Appendix:

 

If this wagon has been painted red.... then what colour are the wheels and axle?

If this wagon has been painted grey....  then what colour are the wheels and axle?

To my eye, this photo seems to present a wagon with black wheels / axle and that goes against all that we have been told for either the red or the grey liveries.

regards, Graham

This is a very nice model, very appealing to the eye.

If you are thinking about your next carriage, how about the double-end slip from CRT?

regards, Graham

Retirement, magic!

Just make sure that you do what you want when you want.

best wishes, Graham

Good day Kit,

You wrote "I illustrated the cut out and assembled sides some while ago (2 years+)", well I have gone through the blog end to end and I have not found the words and music about creating the sides.  Please offer a link to the relevant text/photos.

regards, Graham

Thank you for posting the photos, the model has character and the finish is sublime.

regards, Graham

21 hours ago, K14 said:

Can't really help there, that was before my time - mid '80s?

That said I've a vague recollection that a 'job lot' of 5-gallon drums of a very deep purply-red/brown paint was either donated or otherwise obtained & was deemed to be near enough so got used.

@Western Star might know more.

Sorry Pete @K14, not able to help this time.  My interest in the loco side of the depot rather precluded wandering into the carriage shed.

On 17/04/2022 at 21:01, Western Star said:

Purely in the interest of historical accuracy...

 

Ian Pope and I have spent several hours in trying to trace any Ocean wagon with the number 917 as in the photo herein.  The GWR Freighters Registers for the tail end of the 19th century and the early years of the 20th century exist and there is no entry to match the details on the Gloucester build boards in the Gloster official photo.  Enlargement of a copy of the official photo does not reveal sufficient details on the RCH registration plate to assist in our search for the true identity of the wagon...

 

What might be the case is that Gloster had a large order from Ocean at about the time that the official photo was taken and that the photo shows a wagon from another order which was painted temporarily to confirm details of the livery that was required by Ocean.  Getting the wagon registration number from the RCH plate in the photo would help to resolve the conundrum.

 

Of course, maybe we are making an error by assuming that the wagon was registered with the GWR!

On 17/04/2022 at 22:33, Compound2632 said:

Well, surely an Ocean wagon would most probably have spent its days on the rails of the Taff Vale Railway? 

 

I have had the opportunity to discuss the  question of Ocean no. 917 with Ian Pope again and what follows is my interpretation of that discussion.  To put the question and discussion into contet, Ian has a copy of all of the existing Gloster wagon photos...  and a copy of those GWR Freighters Register which are known to be in existance.  Firstly the photograph...  Ian tells me that the RCH which is visible in the photo provides the following information:-

a/ wagon registered by GWR;

b/ registration date is 1893;

c/ registration number is five digits of which three digits are identifiable.

We spent several hours reading through the Freighters Registers entries for the Ocean Coal company and there is no mention of wagon 917.  This does not mean that the wagon in the Gloster photo is not one belong to the Ocean Coal Company, there is the possibility that the wagon number in the Gloster photo is either (a) wrong or (b) correct when photographed (in which case that number was changed when the wagon was registered).  To resolve this  conundrum requires searching through the Freighters Registers to find an entry for any wagon which might be registered with the number to be seen in the Gloster photograph... a fairly time consuming task with no guarantee of determinacy.

Stephen, @Compound2632,

Ian is of the view that coal from Ocean collieries would have been shipped by the Barry Railway company rather than the Taff Vale Railway company. At this time there is no evidence that the Barry Railway company registered private owner wagons, so possibly the GWR registered wagons on behalf of the BR.  Of course, the absence of evidence is no evidence of absence.

regards, Graham

On 20/04/2022 at 17:29, Compound2632 said:

My antennae start twitching when a secondary source is cited as gospel ...

 

Slinn's acknowledgements indicate that, like Dow, he had access to primary material and a good deal of information "from the horse's mouth" if the shades of the Swindon Drawing Offices will forgive the term!

To put some background to Stephen's comments...  I was introduced to Jack through the first edition of the HMRS Livery Register of the GWR.  The pamphlet (word chosen deliberately as this edition was circa 64 pages)  was a birthday present from my parents so I suppose that this event must have been mid 1960s.  At this time the HMRS had an "age" rule... no one under 18 so I had to wait until 1969 before I could become a member and thus able to attend the HMRS meetings in Keen House, London; it was at the London meetings that I met Jack and found that he was able to comment, with apparent authority, upon each and every question that I asked of him.

A couple of years later, say 1970-71 period, Jack asked me to accompany him to Swindon where we were to look through the print albums of the C&W works.  Jack had this idea that looking into the background of photos would provide him with an insight into the everyday working of the company beyond the official subjects as chosen by those on high.   So we walked into the hallowed ground with a nod to the gatekeepers with Jack leading the way to I know not where other than (a) there were racks, boxes, cupboards and cabinets of photos and glass plates...  and (b) thosre present greeted Jack as an old friend (and all dressed in the same appareil of tweed jacket, waistcoat and shirt/tie).  After several hours of peering through magnifying glasses the "head" of the section announced that lunch beckoned.

Not to the canteen, oh no - our guide (the head of the section) took us to a nearby car park from where we went to the guide's home, in Stratton, for lunch.

I cannot recall much about the afternoon, my overidding memory of the day is that all those that I met that day had a respect and a regard for Jack which must have been the result of many meetings over many months.  Put another way, the C&W part of Swindon seemed to be an open house to Jack.

Although not related to Stephen's comments about research and sources there is another story to be told and this story demonstrates - at least to me - that the Old Boys in the works had a pride in what they had achieved and were willing to share their pride with those who were starting on the long road of preservation.  In the mid 1970s the GWS had completed the restoration of Cookham Manor and had asked Swindon to weigh the engine.  So early in the morning we set of from Didcot, I was lucky enough to ride on the footplate.  After the engine had been taken to the weigh house those of us from Didcot were given carte blanche to explore the works.  I talked to many who had worked on steam and some of those men made small gestures about what could be seen (read as found) by visiting specific shops and discrete areas of the stacking grounds.

Clearly word had got round about our visit and many men had taken the opportunity to walk past the weigh house to see Cookham.  Not only had those men a desire to see a live example of their past work, one or two of them passed "redundant" assets into our care;  for "redundant assets" read "steam loco spares".  Gudgeon pins were no longer seen as door stops, they were offered for the future...  valve rods were no longer make weights in crane tenders, they were passed over as necessary parts for those engines emerging from Barry.  Maybe after forty years those acts of kindness with pride appear as such when seen through rose-tinted glasses.  To me that day is just the same as the visit with Jack.

regards, Graham

Purely in the interest of historical accuracy...

Ian Pope and I have spent several hours in trying to trace any Ocean wagon with the number 917 as in the photo herein.  The GWR Freighters Registers for the tail end of the 19th century and the early years of the 20th century exist and there is no entry to match the details on the Gloucester build boards in the Gloster official photo.  Enlargement of a copy of the official photo does not reveal sufficient details on the RCH registration plate to assist in our search for the true identity of the wagon...

What might be the case is that Gloster had a large order from Ocean at about the time that the official photo was taken and that the photo shows a wagon from another order which was painted temporarily to confirm details of the livery that was required by Ocean.  Getting the wagon registration number from the RCH plate in the photo would help to resolve the conundrum.

Of course, maybe we are making an error by assuming that the wagon was registered with the GWR!

regards, Graham