Hornby announce TT:120

[BRTrainz]

12 hours ago, Hroth said:

It would have been nice for the initial Easterner/Scotsman boxed sets to have gone through without alteration. Most people wouldn't notice the balance weight problem and they would be instant collectors items!

 

There would be enough time to rectify the problem for future production...

 

That probably would have been a no sale for me (only pre-ordered anything after they said in a Facebook comment it'd been corrected) and would not have given me much confidence in the product lines accuracy.

I'm far from a stickler for accuracy, but the counterweights being in the wrong place was to my eyes a glaring error I noticed every time I saw a photo of the models (admittedly only after I saw someone else point it out, but I couldn't unsee it after).

[Hobby]

7 hours ago, Jeff Smith said:

Being super lazy (to trawl through relevant threads) and not really being an operator, can someone explain what the operational attraction is in Minories?

 

You could ask on here, as they seem to have created a massive thread discussing it I'm sure they'll tell you, or as Jason says below it's simply to allow you to run more trains realistically on a layout the same size as a country branch terminal!

 

 

Edited December 10, 2022 by Hobby

[Steamport Southport]

6 hours ago, Jeff Smith said:

Being super lazy (to trawl through relevant threads) and not really being an operator, can someone explain what the operational attraction is in Minories?

 

Mainline trains rather than operating a sleepy branchline which was the norm about the time it was designed. Anymore boing than having a GWR 14XX and autotrailer* running in and out of the station once an hour?

 

Always thought it would work well with multiple units.

 

*Insert equivalent locomotive and train from railway of your choice

 

 

Jason

[luke_stevens]

10 hours ago, meatloaf said:

Not showing as in stock on the website unless theyve come in and gone straight out.

 

Im still on the fence but if i couldve got one before i head to butlins on the 19th i might have had a dabble. 

 

I suspect that at the moment they are just shipping the pre-orders. If they have any left after that is done, and there is time, they might put them on general sale before Christmas. But I doubt it.

 

Luke

[Jeff Smith]

3 hours ago, Steamport Southport said:

 

Mainline trains rather than operating a sleepy branchline which was the norm about the time it was designed. Anymore boing than having a GWR 14XX and autotrailer* running in and out of the station once an hour?

 

Always thought it would work well with multiple units.

 

*Insert equivalent locomotive and train from railway of your choice

 

 

Jason

Ok, have just watched the Dub!o Minories video on the thread referenced above and now begin to understand the attraction.....

Edited December 10, 2022 by Jeff Smith

[Porfuera]

On 09/12/2022 at 08:45, irishmail said:

Hornby have obviously got thier reasons for not releasing the track yet, but would have thougt it better to sell some track now so people could start building layouts ready for when the stock arrives.??

 

Sorry to go over previous discussions (although what else is there to do until someone receives their Scotsman set and reviews it?) but I agree with this sentiment because I also don't understand the logic behind holding back the track until some sets have been sold.

 

What is Hornby's/SK's cut-off point? How many sets need to be sold before they consider they can start selling the track and the Track Extension Packs? Even then, there will always be people without a set that will buy track, so why not start selling it now and recoup more of their investment?

 

Perhaps more importantly, surely there are people that have bought a Scotsman set and would have liked some extra track at the same time, rather than being stuck with just a simple oval and a point for who knows how long? The lack of availability might only serve to put off those buyers from buying more at a future point.

 

And having previously said I didn't like the Hornby points, I didn't realise how relatively cheap the points are! I'm now thinking of buying a few points and a bit of their set track to use as a 'planning aid' to check out the play value operational potential of a few simple layout plans while waiting for the release of Peco's small radius points. Still not holding my breath for those, though - I imagine  Peco may well be waiting to see what the takeup of TT:120 will be before investing more money and resources.

 

Cheers, Neil.

[MarkSG]

10 hours ago, Jeff Smith said:

Being super lazy (to trawl through relevant threads) and not really being an operator, can someone explain what the operational attraction is in Minories?

 

There's nothing particularly special about Minories as a track plan. It's not a shunting puzzle or anything like that. Its key feature is that, as a reasonably realistic compact urban station, it allows for a much more intense service than a typical small town branch line terminus. If you're the sort of person who likes to have trains running all the time, but also likes to have a reasonably prototypical service without too much time compression, that's an important consideration.

 

What made it noteworthy when it was first published was that it represented a departure from the typical tropes of the time. Models of terminus stations tended, at the time, to be either large and urban or small and rural. But a model of a large station takes up a lot of space, and a model of a small rural terminus often doesn't have a lot of operational interest due to the low traffic levels it would have had in real life. CJ Freezer's flash of inspiration was to come up with a design for a small urban station that could be built as a minimum space layout and yet still have significant operational interest without too many jarring compromises. Since then, of course, the small urban terminus has become a trope of its own - it's an incredibly popular exhibition layout design, because it combines two desirable features: it's easy to transport (and can easily be built by a single person rather than needing a club), and it allows for a lot of movement to keep the punters interested. But, at the time, it was genuinely new. And Freezer was an excellent designer; he knew how to come up with a track plan that worked from a modelling perspective while being sufficiently prototypical not to upset the purists. So it's not surprising that Minories, and derivations of it, has become a classic track plan.

[BRTrainz]

3 minutes ago, Porfuera said:

 

Sorry to go over previous discussions (although what else is there to do until someone receives their Scotsman set and reviews it?) but I agree with this sentiment because I also don't understand the logic behind holding back the track until some sets have been sold.

 

What is Hornby's/SK's cut-off point? How many sets need to be sold before they consider they can start selling the track and the Track Extension Packs? Even then, there will always be people without a set that will buy track, so why not start selling it now and recoup more of their investment?

 

Perhaps more importantly, surely there are people that have bought a Scotsman set and would have liked some extra track at the same time, rather than being stuck with just a simple oval and a point for who knows how long? The lack of availability might only serve to put off those buyers from buying more at a future point.

 

And having previously said I didn't like the Hornby points, I didn't realise how relatively cheap the points are! I'm now thinking of buying a few points and a bit of their set track to use as a 'planning aid' to check out the play value operational potential of a few simple layout plans while waiting for the release of Peco's small radius points. Still not holding my breath for those, though - I imagine  Peco may well be waiting to see what the takeup of TT:120 will be before investing more money and resources.

 

Cheers, Neil.

SOME basic curves and straights (as well as the buffer stop) are available now.

Everything else is still listed for pre-order however.

[Hobby]

29 minutes ago, MarkSG said:

CJ Freezer's flash of inspiration was to come up with a design for a small urban station 

 

Did he base it on any particular station or is it just generic, anyone know?

[luke_stevens]

1 minute ago, Hobby said:

 

Did he base it on any particular station or is it just generic, anyone know?

 

Liverpool Street on the Circle and Metropolitan Underground back in steam days was, I believe, the inspiration for the track plan.

 

Luke

[MarkSG]

1 minute ago, Hobby said:

 

Did he base it on any particular station or is it just generic, anyone know?

 

It's a composite. The setting - a small terminus in a deep cutting - was inspired by the Metropolitan station at Liverpool Street, but converted to a terminus instead of a through station. But the four-platform track plan is typical of many small urban stations, including Fenchurch Street and Maryleybone. Which is why it works as a design, because, apart from some necessary compression at the station throat, it is true to life.

[Flying Pig]

39 minutes ago, MarkSG said:

There's nothing particularly special about Minories as a track plan.

 

Topologically it's nothing - just a pair of crossovers and a bay, with a siding on the opposite side.  Apart from the concept of an urban terminus, its selling point is the arrangement of points, which minimises the effect of the reverse curves produced by sequences of short points about as much as possible.  People have tried extensively to do better- see e.g. the (long) dedicated thread on here.

 

But if you want to build and run it in TT:120 in the near future, you'll need to move it to Mitteleuropa.  Nothing Hornby have so far announced is really appropriate.

[Hroth]

21 minutes ago, Flying Pig said:

But if you want to build and run it in TT:120 in the near future, you'll need to move it to Mitteleuropa.  Nothing Hornby have so far announced is really appropriate.

 

Completely agree.

 

I'd like to have a Minories, but until we get a  Brush Type 2, a 350HP shunter and a 1st Gen DMU all in green livery.... Some BR suburban stock would be useful too, but the Mk1s will have to do!

 

So Its going to be a double oval roundy with a station until then.

 

Edited December 10, 2022 by Hroth
A bit more...

[NCB]

51 minutes ago, BRTrainz said:

SOME basic curves and straights (as well as the buffer stop) are available now.

Everything else is still listed for pre-order however.

Exactly. I asked Hornby about this few weeks ago; they said they realised that people could put in orders which were mixed available and preorder so could in the end paying multiple postage charges, so they decided to delay it until a wider selection of track was available.

[Michanglais]

38 minutes ago, BRTrainz said:

SOME basic curves and straights (as well as the buffer stop) are available now.

Everything else is still listed for pre-order however.

 

Are you UK-based?

 

I haven't tried ordering any track (going to go with Tillig's ballasted snap-track - nowhere for a permanent layout, actually, given the 'market' Hornby are claiming they are aiming at, such snap-track may have been a sensible option to offer... probably licensing issues with Kato... I think Tillig had to come to some arrangement with them) but I'm based in France and despite my myriad emails to Hornby, they still don't seem able to come up with a clear response on VAT and customs charges on pre-orders, despite their own printed policy of orders being DDP (no local VAT or customs charges due upon arrival in a foreign country). 

 

Also, when I've placed pre-orders (this may apply to the UK, too) items aren't 'grouped' so €18 shipping is added to each item. I can't find a way to create a 'basket' (maybe this is simply because they don't want to hold back items to complete an order given that things will become available at different times?). 

 

I've followed the arguments for and against Hornby only selling through their site but if that is their decision - and they're also aiming at international sales - they should at least sort their ordering system out. So far, I've cancelled every pre-order I've placed because of conflicting answers from Hornby when I've emailed them regarding VAT. I don't want any of their track but perhaps I should invest in just a few pieces if there are some available to order now to see how the order is dealt with...

 

Just to try to remain somewhat on topic, instead of my usual customs and VAT rant, it does seem an odd policy to hold back a product. Immobilising capital like that just doesn't make sense when people are itching to spend and, as has been pointed out by others, even those ordering sets may want to expand 'instantly' rather than having to wait for a further order to arrive. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[NCB]

Does Anyrail now include the Hornby TT-120 track?

[Hroth]

Just now, NCB said:

Does Anyrail now include the Hornby TT-120 track?

 

Yes, it's got both Peco and Hornby track libraries.

[BRTrainz]

1 hour ago, Michanglais said:

 

Are you UK-based?

 

I haven't tried ordering any track (going to go with Tillig's ballasted snap-track - nowhere for a permanent layout, actually, given the 'market' Hornby are claiming they are aiming at, such snap-track may have been a sensible option to offer... probably licensing issues with Kato... I think Tillig had to come to some arrangement with them) but I'm based in France and despite my myriad emails to Hornby, they still don't seem able to come up with a clear response on VAT and customs charges on pre-orders, despite their own printed policy of orders being DDP (no local VAT or customs charges due upon arrival in a foreign country). 

 

Also, when I've placed pre-orders (this may apply to the UK, too) items aren't 'grouped' so €18 shipping is added to each item. I can't find a way to create a 'basket' (maybe this is simply because they don't want to hold back items to complete an order given that things will become available at different times?). 

 

I've followed the arguments for and against Hornby only selling through their site but if that is their decision - and they're also aiming at international sales - they should at least sort their ordering system out. So far, I've cancelled every pre-order I've placed because of conflicting answers from Hornby when I've emailed them regarding VAT. I don't want any of their track but perhaps I should invest in just a few pieces if there are some available to order now to see how the order is dealt with...

 

Just to try to remain somewhat on topic, instead of my usual customs and VAT rant, it does seem an odd policy to hold back a product. Immobilising capital like that just doesn't make sense when people are itching to spend and, as has been pointed out by others, even those ordering sets may want to expand 'instantly' rather than having to wait for a further order to arrive. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I’m US based and don’t get charged any VAT.

Oddly enough I have not had a shipping charge added to any of my TT pre orders (I do get one added if I add something OO to my cart).

Have also skipped Hornby’s track for Tillig bedding track (although I’ll probably order a buffer stop at some point and see if I can fit it to bedding track).

[Forward!]

15 hours ago, Jeff Smith said:

Being super lazy (to trawl through relevant threads) and not really being an operator, can someone explain what the operational attraction is in Minories?

Another real plus of Minories was probably not anticipated by Freezer when he designed it. The plan is ideal for two-locos to operate it at once, either as complete trains or as a complete train + a station pilot set up. With the advent of DCC that's now easily achievable. I have always thought of Minories as a two-operator layout as equally suited to the show circuit as the spare bedroom.

 

Will

[Pacific231G]

On 10/12/2022 at 02:16, Jeff Smith said:

Being super lazy (to trawl through relevant threads) and not really being an operator, can someone explain what the operational attraction is in Minories?

The main attraction is that it offers the intensive working of a busy urban terminus in the sort of space normally associated with a quiet rural branch line.

It also incorporates a couple of specific features that lifted it from previous such designs. 

The first was to add a loco spur to the basic arrangement of double-track line connected directly to three platforms. This was designed to allow "turnover" operation where, instead of running round its train, the coaches from an arriving train are taken out by another locomotive. The original loco then moves to the loco siding and waits to takes out another arriving train (in the case of a steam loco. after taking water and possibly coal)  This form of operation enables a very busy, and for the operator very challenging,  "rush-hour" sequence to be worked and was used at a number of London and other commuter termini. Some of these were also quite small with just three or four platforms but a lot of trains. It also obviated the need for crosovers near the platform ends to release locos that had just arrived- trains simply don't stay on the platform for very long before their next departure. 

 

The other, and most notable features was the paricular arrangement of crossovers that Cyril Freezer invented

To directly connect three platforms to both sides of a double track main line using ordinary points requires a length of four points  (Actually the same as two platforms, the third is a bonus) and the upper plan is a simple basic arrangement. Unfortunately, with the far sharper than prototype points needed to get a layout into a small space, main line coaches going through the crossover, which they will for half of the six possible routes, will encounter an immediate reverse curve which will make their movement look very unnatural and even toylike as the coach ends move sideways relative to one another.

While doodling plans for such an urban " main line" terminus, Cyril Freezer came up with the lower arrangement  where each crossover is made up from two opposite handed points.  If you trace all the routes through that you'll see that, while every route involves a reverse curve, all but one of them have the two curves separated by atleast the length of a turnout (from platform three it's two or three straights). So long as you don't try to use points that are too sharp*, that makes for a far smoother snaking movement of trains through the pointwork and also makes a very simple track layout  look far more "busy" ,and not at all branch line like,  than does the straight version. Operationally,  it is identical to the straight version but, without using more complex formations of slips or scissor crossovers, nobody has ever come up with  a better design for a minimum length main line approach.

*(I drew both these plans with three foot radius points such as Peco 00/H0 medium radius points or SMP three foot radius- these are the sharpest I'd ever use with long mainline coaches but a proper B6 would be better) 

 

On 10/12/2022 at 13:50, Hobby said:

 

Did he base it on any particular station or is it just generic, anyone know?

It's fairly generic but very much inspired by the busy commuter termini that Cyril freezer knew in London, especially in the City of London. The turnover loco operation was something Cyril Freezer said he observed and was inspired by at Liverpool Street's Met station where longer distance loco-hauled trains from the west terminated and were quickly sent out again with a fresh loco (presumably electric  by then) from the spur. He also said that there was no particular significance in calling it Minories, it was just a name that sounded to him typically urban (even though Minories- a street just to the noth of Tower Bridge-  was the name of the original short lived terminus of the London and Blackwall railway before it was extended the short distance to Fenchurch Street)

 

Getting back on the topic of TT, Peco's new TT:120 points are three foot radius so equivalent to four foor radius in H0/00 and claimed to be very close to a prototype B6 turnout. In principle therefore,  you should be able to run a train over a straight crossover made up with two of those points without apparent buffer locking. So, the straight version of a terminus equivalent to Minories might not need its iconic S shaped approach and the straight version I've illustrated above might work prefectly well. I nevertheless think the way trains snake through the approach would probably still make it worthwhile but would be very interested to see anyone's experiments with such a scheme.

Edited December 11, 2022 by Pacific231G
typos and grammar

[SeanTT]

Got an email from DPD saying my 'Scotsman' set will be delivered tomorrow!

 

Earlier then SK originally thought. Great news

 

im sure we will see a lot of youtube reviews etc starting tomorrow and more track etc being released this week.

[irishmail]

1 hour ago, SeanTT said:

Got an email from DPD saying my 'Scotsman' set will be delivered tomorrow!

 

Earlier then SK originally thought. Great news

 

im sure we will see a lot of youtube reviews etc starting tomorrow and more track etc being released this week.

If and when you get chance, would you mind posting some pics on here?  It will be nice to see some actual production models. 

Hope you enjoy the set and that the wait will be worth it. 😀.

Regards, John

[Hobby]

2 hours ago, SeanTT said:

Earlier then SK originally thought. Great news

 

Under promise and over deliver! He said that the Easterner set would arrive towards the end of January, let's hope that is the same!! 😉

[SeanTT]

3 hours ago, irishmail said:

If and when you get chance, would you mind posting some pics on here?  It will be nice to see some actual production models. 

Hope you enjoy the set and that the wait will be worth it. 😀.

Regards, John

Will do John. I expect the Internet especially YouTube will have various videos uploaded by those that get their sets tomorrow

[luke_stevens]

5 minutes ago, SeanTT said:

Will do John. I expect the Internet especially YouTube will have various videos uploaded by those that get their sets tomorrow

 

But I'd rather have the opinion of a fellow modeller than that of an "influencer" whose aim is to make a story and get likes!

 

Luke