woodbine Posted July 31, 2010 Share Posted July 31, 2010 Hi, I've reached the stage on my layout when I need to make a couple of wagon turntables. I am in EM so the Peco one won't do. It will not be required to be working. I have some photos of L&Y ones, but would appreciate if anyone has any knowledge or dimensional drawings or photos of what I presume is an item not specific to particular railways, also how you built them. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium PhilJ W Posted July 31, 2010 RMweb Premium Share Posted July 31, 2010 Try and find a copy of '19th century railway drawings in 4mm scale' by Alan Prior, published by David & Charles ISBN 0 7153 8006 0 this has detailed scale drawings of a late Victorian wagon turntable. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
shortliner Posted July 31, 2010 Share Posted July 31, 2010 Try and find a copy of '19th century railway drawings in 4mm scale' by Alan Prior, published by David & Charles ISBN 0 7153 8006 0 this has detailed scale drawings of a late Victorian wagon turntable. This might help http://www.metalsmit...n-turntable.htm and there is a good clear picture of a PECO one (wrong scale) at http://www.railway-m..._1_1038654.html Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AMJ Posted July 31, 2010 Share Posted July 31, 2010 There are a few photos available on the net of different styles (rails on deck or flush) http://www.google.co.uk/images?hl=en&source=imghp&biw=1001&bih=750&q=wagon+turntable&gbv=2&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai= The diameter always seems to be same to match the standard RCH wagon dimensions. I'd say just use the dimension os say an 8 plank body length. It will be a case of if it looks right then it will be. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Enterprisingwestern Posted August 1, 2010 RMweb Gold Share Posted August 1, 2010 This might help http://www.metalsmit...n-turntable.htm and there is a good clear picture of a PECO one (wrong scale) at http://www.railway-m..._1_1038654.html The Metalsmith one is 7mm. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
woodbine Posted August 1, 2010 Author Share Posted August 1, 2010 Thanks for your replies so far. There are a few photos available on the net of different styles Doh, I should have thought searching for images. However, here's one of the ones I want to reproduce a (non-working) model of. If it uploads, that is. So given that I will be scratch-building, where can I get some etched brass plate with that sort of design on? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium PhilJ W Posted August 1, 2010 RMweb Premium Share Posted August 1, 2010 Thanks for your replies so far. Doh, I should have thought searching for images. However, here's one of the ones I want to reproduce a (non-working) model of. If it uploads, that is. So given that I will be scratch-building, where can I get some etched brass plate with that sort of design on? The ones I mentioned in the book above are 12 and 13 feet in diameter. Scale Link do etched brass plate in a variety of styles and sizes. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kits from Somerset Posted August 7, 2010 Share Posted August 7, 2010 There is a detailed article in an early BRJ: I think number 9. It has drawings, and quite a lot of detail on where they were placed on LNWR stations. It is number 11 as far as I can tell and I have seen it listed at £12.00 + p&p. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest baldrick25 Posted August 7, 2010 Share Posted August 7, 2010 In a similar vein, and spotted today inside the works at SVR Bridgnorth, a wheelset rotator, very similar to a wagon turntable. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold unravelled Posted August 7, 2010 RMweb Gold Share Posted August 7, 2010 I've put a few photos of some drawings of early examples up on Flickr, Wagon TT, samples below "> "> I trust they are out of copyright by now. If they would be useful, I can probably scan to get a better image Dave Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
woodbine Posted August 8, 2010 Author Share Posted August 8, 2010 Thanks guys for your continuing efforts. It has thrown up some interesting stuff about a neglected but once apparently fairly common part of the railway system. I love those 19thC techinical drawings. When you see them close enough to see the pen and brush strokes it makes you realise how artistic and proud of their work those people were. I have been in touch with the L&Y Society, and they tell me there is a drawing of the ones the L&Y made, in the NRM in York, (unfortunately they don't have an accession number for it) If anyone else has information about wagon turntables, and perhaps their often associated hardware, like capstans and bollards, maybe this thread would be a good place to put it? There is a good pic of a LNWR TT half way down this page:- Mill St Goods Depot And a general article here:- The theory A previous RM thread:- Capstan shunting Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Victorian Posted August 3, 2011 Share Posted August 3, 2011 Apologies for reviving this thread but the following might be of interest. Many of the illustrations in "19th century railway drawings" referred to in this thread were based on Daniel Kinnear Clark's seminal work "Railway Machinery" published in 1855. This rare book used to be considered beyond the reach of railway modellers but today a full scanned copy can be found for free on Google Books . The link points to the plates section which is scanned seperately. There are several carriage and wagon turntables illustrated in exquisite detail. You can download the book as a .pdf and then copy individual pages into CAD, or just scale and print them. Now for my question: does anyone know of a commercially available quiet mechansm that would fit within the footprint of one of these turntables in 4mm and automatically step to the 4 quadrature points? Servos seem to ruled out by the need for 360 deg rotation, but something must exist. As for the process of shunting the carriages and wagons, it seems to me that it would be easier to breed 4mm scales horses than to come up with a workable magnetic or other concealed system. But maybe someone knows better? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Stubby47 Posted August 3, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted August 3, 2011 As for the process of shunting the carriages and wagons, it seems to me that it would be easier to breed 4mm scales horses than to come up with a workable magnetic or other concealed system. But maybe someone knows better? I considered various ways of moving wagons in and out of the factory on Laterite & Co - I ended up using a simple bicycle spoke hooked into the coupling loop. But, thinking this through a bit further... if a sliding rod, under the trackwork, had a powerful enough magnet to attract a suitable ferrous plate under the wagon, then the wagon could be 'pulled' into the siding (for want of a better word) and 'pushed' out again manually. To release the wagon from the magnet once on the turntable - if the table was turned 90 deg to align with the main track, then the rod/magnet should be able to be withdrawn with out pulling the wagon sideways off the table track. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jwealleans Posted August 3, 2011 Share Posted August 3, 2011 That's interesting - can I ask why you didn't/couldn't use the full size method of capstans and ropes and draw it in and out using a loco? I'm sure I've seen that done in 4mm though tI'm blowed if I can remember what the layout was. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Stubby47 Posted August 3, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted August 3, 2011 That's interesting - can I ask why you didn't/couldn't use the full size method of capstans and ropes and draw it in and out using a loco? I'm sure I've seen that done in 4mm though tI'm blowed if I can remember what the layout was. Lots of reasons, mainly though because I wanted the layout to be 'hands off' - everything operated from behind the scenes. Plus, with the internal siding being very much 'internal', there was no way I'd have been able to attach a rope to the wagon. The layout using capstans & ropes is this one - Mike's 2010 Challenge entry. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium kevinlms Posted August 3, 2011 RMweb Premium Share Posted August 3, 2011 Model Railways of April 1973 has plans & info on one at Sudbury GER. There are some follow up notes, including details of the underneath in Model Railways 1974 October & December. Apparently this info came from an old edition of Encyclopaedia Britannica. Can't tell you much beyond that, I'm sorry. Kevin Martin Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
micknich2003 Posted August 12, 2011 Share Posted August 12, 2011 That's interesting - can I ask why you didn't/couldn't use the full size method of capstans and ropes and draw it in and out using a loco? I'm sure I've seen that done in 4mm though tI'm blowed if I can remember what the layout was. Possibly the Shipley Club's latest ex GC layout. Mick. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jcm@gwr Posted August 12, 2011 Share Posted August 12, 2011 Hi Surely you don't need 360 rotation, you only need that if you are turning a loco. You will only need 90 as wagons are not 'ended'. Therefore a servo would be perfect, via a crank. Good luck, Jeff Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coombe Barton Posted August 12, 2011 Share Posted August 12, 2011 The layout using capstans & ropes is this one - Mike's 2010 Challenge entry. I'll requote what Stubby47 said about Mike's layout - look at the link from beginning to end and all the points being made here are answered. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
halfwit Posted August 12, 2011 Share Posted August 12, 2011 As for the process of shunting the carriages and wagons, it seems to me that it would be easier to breed 4mm scales horses than to come up with a workable magnetic or other concealed system. But maybe someone knows better? High Level make a 'Flyshunter' motorised wagon chassis for just such a purpose. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Natalie Graham Posted August 12, 2011 Share Posted August 12, 2011 Hi Surely you don't need 360 rotation, you only need that if you are turning a loco. You will only need 90 as wagons are not 'ended'. Therefore a servo would be perfect, via a crank. Good luck, Jeff It will depend on railway and period. The LNWR used wagon turntables a lot as many of their earlier vans had doors only on one side* so 180 degrees at least would be needed to get the door at the right side to be unloaded, plus another 90 if the wagon is to be turned onto a cross track as well. I read recently that they later removed one line on the wagon turntables so that there was only one length of track rather than the two crossing at right angles in the first decade of the 20th century from memory ( I was looking for something entirely different at the time so didn't take notice of where I read it). I also saw a photo online of an interesting carriage turntable dating from the earliest days of the London and Birmingham which had three tracks on it at 60 degrees to each other. *another reason was the odd practice of putting goods sheds at 90 to the mainline so they could only be accessed by turntables Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
woodbine Posted October 21, 2011 Author Share Posted October 21, 2011 Talking of working turntables operated by capstan, on the amazing Burntisland layout, I'm fairly sure that not only did the turntables work by capstan and rope, but the coal hoists worked too! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
woodbine Posted October 21, 2011 Author Share Posted October 21, 2011 Oh, and here's a piccy. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Penlan Posted October 21, 2011 Share Posted October 21, 2011 ..Surely you don't need 360 rotation, you only need that if you are turning a loco. Even then you only need 180degs.... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
frisby Posted October 24, 2011 Share Posted October 24, 2011 If you anywhere near Coleford in the Forest of Dean then there is one in the GWR museum there. Not sure which manufacture. (As for no locos on TT!!!) http://www.colefordgwr.150m.com/aboutus.html Andy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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