Oxford Rail announces - OO gauge Mk3 coaches

[Tiddles47]

The guy said the ScR will be out sometime in the new year... that's plenty time for "people power" to lamblast OR to get this colour right once and for all.. Email, Facebook etc... lets tell them they are wrong... 

[ThaneofFife]

thats the bit I dont get - they have 4-5 months or so to eat humble pie and change the artwork now......theyve only just changed it for the window frames so unless the coaches were manufactured in the last few weeks since announcing that revision theres still loads of time to make this other revision.

 

honestly the mind does boggle.

 

anarchy!

[Ian Hargrave]

This colour faux pas is a real shame, I think the Oxford MK3 is an impressive coach in many ways and was looking forward to building up a nice little Scotrail fleet.  

But having seen the sample at Warley, the shade is just too far off any interpretation of 'correct'.  I did consider 'blue-striping' some of the Bachmann Mk2fs but to my knowledge the Scotrail Mk2 aircons at the time were all of the 2D/2E variety so may be a non-starter.

 

Have OR ever commented on these forums as other smaller manufacturers often seem to?  It would at least restore some faith and be a nod in the direction of (future) customer service to just say "OK guys, point taken, we'll go back to the drawing board on this one..."  Or just get out that Bachmann 47 they bought and use it.  Even if it meant a few extra months delay this would surely be preferable to effectively losing a whole consignment of incorrect models which won't sell.  

 

I don't want to give up on these yet, I WILL BUY THEM IF THEY CHANGE THE COLOUR - so come on Oxford, talk to us!

 

To put you in the picture about Oxford Rail and this forum,They took some heavy criticism two years ago when the Dean Goods was released. This had the effect of making them deeply suspicious and wary of anyone from RMWeb.In fact,as far as I am aware they have never had a presence here.Lest you think they are unique,Dapol who did once have a presence here,ceased abruptly and acrimoniously after a spat which led them to publish a threat of legal action.

 

Manufacturers are in no way obliged to post here.They do it as a courtesy or,as in the case of Dave Jones and more recently Accurascale,as a marketing strategy.

[frobisher]

thats the bit I dont get - they have 4-5 months or so to eat humble pie and change the artwork now......theyve only just changed it for the window frames so unless the coaches were manufactured in the last few weeks since announcing that revision theres still loads of time to make this other revision.

The window frames would likely be an additional finish pass and not unique to any livery artwork (which wouldn't need changed to accommodate this) so could be done on already finished stock that hasn't left the factory.

[55020]

Manufacturers are in no way obliged to post here.

 

I don't think anyone is suggesting that OR are obliged to post, just that some feedback might be good for their PR machine.

 

Bottom line is that any business that doesn't listen to, or seek the opinions of their customers are setting themselves up to possibly fail or at least not be a successful as they could be.  OR "appear" to be heading down this route, which is a real shame.

[tractor_37260]

I'll wager Mike both are good match (paint wise) from back when the livery was current - more than 30 years ago - as you say, it can be done, and you certainly proved it.

L305385-U_3218317_Qty1_1.jpg

Lima CO Image, courtesy of Hattons.

 

Yes Lima got a lot closer to the real colours 20 odd years ago..........

 

So if Oxford Rail are insisting they have used the correct colours : 

 

It means Precison / RailMatch / Replica and DBI paints all got it wrong........and Bachmann / Lima / Replica Railways also .......!!

Edited November 26, 2018 by tractor_37260

[Ian Hargrave]

I don't think anyone is suggesting that OR are obliged to post, just that some feedback might be good for their PR machine.

 

Bottom line is that any business that doesn't listen to, or seek the opinions of their customers are setting themselves up to possibly fail or at least not be a successful as they could be.  OR "appear" to be heading down this route, which is a real shame.

All of which I readily acknowledge.I’m trying to point out the historical reasons for it. However,sorry to say I do believe some feel that there is such an underlying obligation .I had a revealing conversation a couple of years ago at Warley with one of Oxford Rail’s team which left me in no doubt of the rift then in existence.Not everyone loves us it seems....

[66738]

Refusing to listen is financially going to be very damaging for them. Surely someone at Oxford or advisors to them should have a bit of nouse about them and realise what’s going to happen if they continue to take this stance. It’s just crazy.

[Tiddles47]

Ok chaps I bit the bullet  and sent them this message: 

 

Hi there. I spoke with one of your reps at the Warley show on Saturday and asked about the Scotrail Mk3's and the correct shade for the Executive light grey. He said you are using BR specs and they are correct. Fair enough. Now I'm sure I won't be the only customer that will contact you regarding this. I understand that these coaches won't be out until sometime next year. That gives you plenty time to get this paint matching solved. Please please please match them with the Bachmann DBSO's and 47/7 which is what they will be running with; even if you think the shade of grey you have is correct. If not i fear you may not sell very many of these.

 

Hopefully I'll have a response by the morning. I just hope i didn't overstep the mark. But something had to be said.. I urge other users to do the same.

[PJ10]

Hi Tiddles47.

 

I wouldn't hold your breath for a response. I'm sure I read earlier on this tread that Oxford don't generally respond.

 

I also send them an e-mail yesterday stating my concerns. I haven't had a response, not even a "Thanks for your e-mail". I'll see if anything comes through in a day or two.

 

PJ10

[Tiddles47]

Hi Tiddles47.

 

I wouldn't hold your breath for a response. I'm sure I read earlier on this tread that Oxford don't generally respond.

 

I also send them an e-mail yesterday stating my concerns. I haven't had a response, not even a "Thanks for your e-mail". I'll see if anything comes through in a day or two.

 

PJ10

Hi PJ10, i sent them a Facebook message when they first made their page  and they were very quick to respond.. 5mins!! Still very bad that they didn't respond to you though.

[Matt]

Following my post on Saturday and some of the discussion on here, I went back for another chat on Sunday with a different rep.  The guy I spoke to was really decent and we had a long chat about the whole issue.  His view is that a poll was conducted asking for the correct colours and OR are confident that the colours are correct that they are bringing to market.  We discussed my concerns and those of many on here and he felt this was a vocal few rather than a widespread view which is why OR are sticking to their guns - he commented that a few had been past to talk about colours at Warley but not many.  He also showed me a photo on his phone of a Bach 47/7 of his own on his layout attached to the OR Mk3s in Scotrail and I was surprised that the colours didn't look far out.  He also advised that the Intercity Mk3s have been selling really well for OR so, whilst we may feel the colours are wrong, it isn't stopping others from buying.

 

I am frustrated with the colour match but I have some sympathy for their position, particularly if there has been some ill feeling to the way OR have been treated by online forums in the past.  I suspect that the decision is made now so no reversing it (this rep suggested they were hoping to get into stock before Glasgow show in Feb).

 

Overall I think the outcome is that I will wait and see with the Scotrail Mk3s and take a more cautious approach - however if they get the window frames right (NOT like Hornby / Lima's efforts which have far too much silver band) then I would be tempted to buy anyway and either try to tone change the colours with a wash/weather, or respray lower bodyside which isn't a massive job compared to the work required to improve the Lima / Hornby versions.  Yes we shouldn't have to but the price of these models is really quite surprising against the competition and for all the effort / cost involved to fix the issue (if it really jars) then I think I'll go for it.  If the window frames look like Hornby or Lima's then I may think again...

 

M

[eagle50043]

good try with the email to Oxford.....but there's no way he's going to bat an eye lid at this, its not in his interests....he's obviously not into trains and if Oxford goes tits up can just get a job elsewhere in sales & marketing.

[classy52]

We discussed my concerns and those of many on here and he felt this was a vocal few rather than a widespread view which is why OR are sticking to their guns - he commented that a few had been past to talk about colours at Warley but not many. 

 

Oh dear that's bound to get everyone's back up, he just thinks you're a minority thus shall be ignored by OR...ouch

[JDW]

Yeah "a vocal few" seems harsh.  I've never liked the livery rendition, the black looks too black and the beige looks too grey/cold, and have to agree that even if the Bachmann colour turns out to be wrong too, it would be better to match them rather than be so far off.  And since the Bachmann thread isn't inundated with discussions on colour, I think the consensus has to be that it at least looks right, even if it turned out not to be the exact shade.  Its a shame that it will put so many off, but I also suspect there will be a good many who won't know the difference or won't care and will buy them anyway.

[wombatofludham]

All of which I readily acknowledge.I’m trying to point out the historical reasons for it. However,sorry to say I do believe some feel that there is such an underlying obligation .I had a revealing conversation a couple of years ago at Warley with one of Oxford Rail’s team which left me in no doubt of the rift then in existence.Not everyone loves us it seems....

 

Doesn't surprise in the slightest.

 

Refusing to listen is financially going to be very damaging for them. Surely someone at Oxford or advisors to them should have a bit of nouse about them and realise what’s going to happen if they continue to take this stance. It’s just crazy.

 

Do you think?  Earlier posts suggest the Intercity Mk3s are selling well.  Just because there's pages of complaints on here means diddly-squat in the wider picture.  By way of example, of the half dozen or so modellers involved in keeping the "Dolgellau" layout running I'm the only one who posts here (and incidentally the only one who generally isn't impressed with the GWR!) and amongst my friends outside Dolgellau, who all model post 1968, again numbering about half a dozen, only two of us are active here.  So, that's 2 out of about a dozen active on this forum.  In other words, 80% of my modelling fraternity are neither aware of the Dean Goods debacle or the Mk3 brouhaha.  No wonder Oxford think we're a gobby minority.  I doubt my figures regarding the active participation of my modelling friends on this board are in any way disproportionately off kilter especially as we all routinely contact each other by e-mail or social media, even our talented 90 year old detailer and painter in chief in Dolgellau.

 

It seems some of the sometimes quite pungent comments thrown about towards Oxford have rebounded on us, yet they still seem to be happy with sales.

 

For what it's worth, having seen the IC Mk3s at Warley, I do feel the light grey is more akin to the Regional Railways (not Provincial) "Silver Grey" which was definitely cooler than the previous "Mushroom" grey which had a beige cast.  In fact it seems close to the late NSE silver grey used on Class 321 and 442 units.  However, I feel it can be neutered by some clever weathering so it won't stop me buying some.  In fact I'm slightly more bothered by the fact I will have to fit some diy lighting to an RFM to run with the Bachmann Mk2f coaches as to me lighting is important as I intend to have a controllable lighting rig to simulate daw to dusk and moonlight so having a nicely lit London to Wolverhampton rake to run the last few boozer-cruisers is a must!

[66738]

Doesn't surprise in the slightest.

 

 

Do you think? Earlier posts suggest the Intercity Mk3s are selling well. Just because there's pages of complaints on here means diddly-squat in the wider picture. By way of example, of the half dozen or so modellers involved in keeping the "Dolgellau" layout running I'm the only one who posts here (and incidentally the only one who generally isn't impressed with the GWR!) and amongst my friends outside Dolgellau, who all model post 1968, again numbering about half a dozen, only two of us are active here. So, that's 2 out of about a dozen active on this forum. In other words, 80% of my modelling fraternity are neither aware of the Dean Goods debacle or the Mk3 brouhaha. No wonder Oxford think we're a gobby minority. I doubt my figures regarding the active participation of my modelling friends on this board are in any way disproportionately off kilter especially as we all routinely contact each other by e-mail or social media, even our talented 90 year old detailer and painter in chief in Dolgellau.

 

It seems some of the sometimes quite pungent comments thrown about towards Oxford have rebounded on us, yet they still seem to be happy with sales.

 

For what it's worth, having seen the IC Mk3s at Warley, I do feel the light grey is more akin to the Regional Railways (not Provincial) "Silver Grey" which was definitely cooler than the previous "Mushroom" grey which had a beige cast. In fact it seems close to the late NSE silver grey used on Class 321 and 442 units. However, I feel it can be neutered by some clever weathering so it won't stop me buying some. In fact I'm slightly more bothered by the fact I will have to fit some diy lighting to an RFM to run with the Bachmann Mk2f coaches as to me lighting is important as I intend to have a controllable lighting rig to simulate daw to dusk and moonlight so having a nicely lit London to Wolverhampton rake to run the last few boozer-cruisers is a must!

Yes, I’ve just seen Matt’s post indicating that Oxford have not had many questions about the livery, and they think sales are going well.

Maybe a few of us on here unhappy with the colours are in the minority.

Maybe the majority out there are happy with the colours, or the fact that the coaches and locos don’t particularly match.

Bargain bin prices here there and everywhere tell a different story in my eyes, but that’s just my opinion.

I’m willing to admit I’m wrong on this, and if Oxford are happy with sales, perhaps the Intercity and Scotrail colours aren’t going to be that damaging to their business.

But I’m guessing colours that match Bachmann/Lima/Railmatch and Precision would turn good sales into great sales.

66738

[srihaggis]

Has anybody considered the visual difference between painting on plastic to a steel body of the real thing, thus requiring some tweaks to make it look correct on plastic?

I'm going to buy some but they'll be weathered so hoping it'll be enough to hide the differences.

[Tiddles47]

Morning chaps. Following on from my post from last night regarding a message i sent to OR, here is their reply. 

 

Good Morning Paul, When we did the initial research we did a poll of what customers wanted. The overall winner was to use the original specification from BR, which we have done. The colours used were from the British Rail Corporate Identity Manual ISBN: 978-0995553507. We have been updated since the show that production of these coaches are complete and are due for shipping shortly.

 

Thoughts?

[njee20]

Has anybody considered the visual difference between painting on plastic to a steel body of the real thing, thus requiring some tweaks to make it look correct on plastic?

I'm going to buy some but they'll be weathered so hoping it'll be enough to hide the differences.

 

Yep, that was my point. We can all agree that it looks wrong. But Oxford have empirical data that "we" wanted it to be right, not to match existing stock, so I suspect no number of people saying "but it doesn't match my other stock" will make them change if they continue to believe they have it right, and I can't definitively prove that it is wrong, just that it looks wrong, which may as well be the same.

[ThaneofFife]

thats that then.  no point banging on........

['CHARD]

he's obviously not into trains and if Oxford goes tits up can just get a job elsewhere in sales & marketing.

 

And we know this as fact.  Words fail me sometimes. 

[Ouroborus]

thats that then.  no point banging on........

 

 

Indeed.  But i bet it still happens.........

[njee20]

It's been happening for 72 pages so far, why stop!? Must be time they announce a new livery we can tear apart

[tractor_37260]

Morning chaps. Following on from my post from last night regarding a message i sent to OR, here is their reply. 

 

Good Morning Paul, When we did the initial research we did a poll of what customers wanted. The overall winner was to use the original specification from BR, which we have done. The colours used were from the British Rail Corporate Identity Manual ISBN: 978-0995553507. We have been updated since the show that production of these coaches are complete and are due for shipping shortly.

 

Thoughts?

 

Here's my thoughts : 

 

I have a copy of the above BR Corporate Identity Manual. 

 

The only colour references I can find in it are from 1965/6 for Rail Blue / Rail Grey and Rail Red.  Very strange that I can't find any reference to the Grey colours used on later Inter-City onwards liveries. In fact there is very little information on actual liveries, there's much more about signage / brandings/ lettering and uniforms. 

 

Draw your own conclusions............