Tornado fails on ECML

[Reorte]

Though, arguably, wind power is solar power, as that's where wind comes from isn't it? Different rates of heating of different parts of the Earth's surface causing the atmosphere to heat up and cool down unevenly. I think..... Not that I paid that much attention in geography lessons, the WCML was visible from the classroom window!

There are ultimately four sources of energy we've got access to - from the sun, from leftovers from the Earth's formation, from nuclear fission, and from nuclear fusion, and we've not cracked the last one. Nuclear power relies on heavy elements present when the Earth formed and were created in supernovae of earlier stars. Leftover heat from the Earth's formation gives geothermal (there's also a contribution to that from radioactive decay). The rest, whether renewable or fossil, took their energy from the sun, although a long time ago for the likes of coal and oil.

[Pacific231G]

Though, arguably, wind power is solar power, as that's where wind comes from isn't it? Different rates of heating of different parts of the Earth's surface causing the atmosphere to heat up and cool down unevenly. I think..... Not that I paid that much attention in geography lessons, the WCML was visible from the classroom window!

It certainly is. As Reorte says, all our energy sources, apart from nuclear and geothermal, are ultimately derived from solar energy. Fossil fuels are simply the fraction of solar energy used to convert CO2 into plant tissues that ended up getting captured and so stored over a very long timescale The catch is that we're preferring fossil fuels to the energy freely available from the sun now (as solar, wind, waves, biomass etc) and burning all of it we can get our hands on over a couple of hundred not millions of years. That means we're releasing that stored carbon as CO2 very rapidly with the inevitable result that, unless we stop, global warming will exceed the environmental conditions in which we and most other current species evolved. 

 

I strongly suspect though that a main line steam locomotive like Tornado hauling several hundred people is releasing less CO2 per person than if they were in their cars. In any case it's negligible.  

[kevinlms]

Personally, even as an advocate of renewable energy such as wind, solar and wave, I still think nuclear has its place. I think we are maybe going down the wrong road with nuclear really in building very large conventional PWR plants rated for GW output. Those plants are very expensive and not especially flexible, there is a lot of work going into smaller nuclear plants (including thorium reactors) sized in 10's of MW output, basically equivalent to the sort of plants often built for industrial CHP applications. The reactors can be designed and manufactured as sealed units and designed for ease of recycling and to minimise waste.

Australia has a recurring debate on nuclear power stations. We currently have only one, which is a small research test facility only, even though we supply much of the world's uranium ore.

 

Because we would be starting from scratch, using fully imported equipment & trained personnel, it would take many years to build the first power plant. The debate hasn't even started, as to where it would go. I can't see it happening, as the objectors would be many (including me).

 

Australia is for obvious reasons. a perfect place for large scale solar & wind power plants. As has been proven, these could be built much quicker & cheaper than a nuclear one, backed up by storage facilities, such as batteries.

 

However the present federal government, has quite a few MP's that want to build new coal fuelled power stations. The same MP's, want the government to take over a 'due for closure' in 2022, coal power station, even though the current owners, say that it is beyond economic extension of life.

 

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-12-09/liddell-coal-plant-closes/9243180

 

The result is, very little is happening. We have 4 years notice and there is no progress on replacing it with anything at all.

[Zomboid]

I strongly suspect though that a main line steam locomotive like Tornado hauling several hundred people is releasing less CO2 per person than if they were in their cars. In any case it's negligible.

Though it's highly unlikely that they'd be making the journey at all if it weren't for Tornado or another kettle being in the front, so not really a valid comparison.

 

Agree that the environmental impact of steam trains is pretty negligible though.

[phil-b259]

Australia has a recurring debate on nuclear power stations. We currently have only one, which is a small research test facility only, even though we supply much of the world's uranium ore.

 

Because we would be starting from scratch, using fully imported equipment & trained personnel, it would take many years to build the first power plant. The debate hasn't even started, as to where it would go. I can't see it happening, as the objectors would be many (including me).

 

Australia is for obvious reasons. a perfect place for large scale solar & wind power plants. As has been proven, these could be built much quicker & cheaper than a nuclear one, backed up by storage facilities, such as batteries.

 

However the present federal government, has quite a few MP's that want to build new coal fuelled power stations. The same MP's, want the government to take over a 'due for closure' in 2022, coal power station, even though the current owners, say that it is beyond economic extension of life.

 

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-12-09/liddell-coal-plant-closes/9243180

 

The result is, very little is happening. We have 4 years notice and there is no progress on replacing it with anything at all.

 

This is not unusual, the mining, transportation and burning of fossil fuels all involve a significant amount of ongoing human labour - or VOTERS as politicians like to call them. If you have a large mining / heavy industry sector in your country, doing stuff that will result in hardship to said humans won't make you popular.....

[newbryford]

Tornado is NOT an electric kettle....

 

There - post duly amended.............................

 

 

 

 

Mick

[rab]

Though it's highly unlikely that they'd be making the journey at all if it weren't for Tornado or another kettle being in the front, so not really a valid comparison.

Agree that the environmental impact of steam trains is pretty negligible though.

No but if they weren't on a rail trip hauled by a steam engine, they could well be driving around in their cars.

 

On the other hand, I wonder how much vehicle emission is caused by people getting to the start point of the trip and back again after.

[Dava]

I do hope Tornado gets fixed soon so this thread can reach its conclusion......

[jjb1970]

Australia has a recurring debate on nuclear power stations. We currently have only one, which is a small research test facility only, even though we supply much of the world's uranium ore.

 

Because we would be starting from scratch, using fully imported equipment & trained personnel, it would take many years to build the first power plant. The debate hasn't even started, as to where it would go. I can't see it happening, as the objectors would be many (including me).

 

Australia is for obvious reasons. a perfect place for large scale solar & wind power plants. As has been proven, these could be built much quicker & cheaper than a nuclear one, backed up by storage facilities, such as batteries.

 

However the present federal government, has quite a few MP's that want to build new coal fuelled power stations. The same MP's, want the government to take over a 'due for closure' in 2022, coal power station, even though the current owners, say that it is beyond economic extension of life.

 

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-12-09/liddell-coal-plant-closes/9243180

 

The result is, very little is happening. We have 4 years notice and there is no progress on replacing it with anything at all.

The design and construction time/difficulty of nuclear plants could be slashed with the sort of sealed reactors being developed. The problematic bit of a nuclear power plant (or marine equivalent) is the nuclear island. If you take that out of plant design and design it as a "plug and play" fully sealed unit serially produced in a factory it eliminates some of the issues. And by designing in ease of recycling, to be done at the same factory that made it you slash decommissioning costs and any refuelling could be done off site as part of reactor recycling. Some people call the concept a nuclear battery.

 

That said, as a huge country with a small population (relative to area) and abundance of sun solar would seem to be perfect for Australia.

[AndyID]

I do hope Tornado gets fixed soon so this thread can reach its conclusion......

 

The A1 Trust is keeping schtum now. I hope things haven't turned out to be a bit more complicated than they thought initially. Personally I think they were a bit premature in saying that speed had nothing to do with the failure. Struck me as being very defensive.

[chris p bacon]

The A1 Trust is keeping schtum now.

 

 

Maybe there's nothing new to say and they know nothing about US steam to contribute.

[Oldddudders]

The A1 Trust is keeping schtum now. I hope things haven't turned out to be a bit more complicated than they thought initially. Personally I think they were a bit premature in saying that speed had nothing to do with the failure. Struck me as being very defensive.

 

As I said in post 9, this was a necessarily Mandy Rice-Davies moment. The last thing the enthusiast movement needs is evidence that their "kettles" are only reliable/safe at sensible speed. The scientific evidence has yet to be made public. 

[Dava]

Apart from the news about the new motion parts on the A1 SLT website, they announced a few weeks back that:

 

"The A1 Steam Locomotive Trust has secured the services of First Class Partnerships (FCP) to provide an overview and independent opinion on both the immediate causes and effect of the failure and the wider impact on the future main line running of No. 60163 Tornado."

 

So until the results of that report is known and presumably made public, I wouldnt expect to hear very much more.

[AndyID]

As I said in post 9, this was a necessarily Mandy Rice-Davies moment. The last thing the enthusiast movement needs is evidence that their "kettles" are only reliable/safe at sensible speed. The scientific evidence has yet to be made public. 

 

I hear you, but I think the last thing the enthusiast movement needs is any suggestion that the A1 Trust was jumping to conclusions without being in full possession of the facts. IMHO they should have left the mention of speed out of the conversation entirely. Unfortunately perceptions are important, and this punter perceived their reaction as defensive. I'm willing to bet NR had a similar reaction.

[PhilH]

I hear you, but I think the last thing the enthusiast movement needs is any suggestion that the A1 Trust was jumping to conclusions without being in full possession of the facts. IMHO they should have left the mention of speed out of the conversation entirely. Unfortunately perceptions are important, and this punter perceived their reaction as defensive. I'm willing to bet NR had a similar reaction.

I'm willing to bet that NR don't jump to non-fact based conclusions either...

[jjb1970]

I'm willing to bet that NR don't jump to non-fact based conclusions either...

Well, not unless they're designing a high output electrification train for the GWML, ooh I'll go to the naughty spot for that one  

[AndyID]

Well, not unless they're designing a high output electrification train for the GWML, ooh I'll go to the naughty spot for that one  

 

Go to the 'naughty step' now! Do NOT pass GO. Do NOT collect 200!

[jjb1970]

Go to the 'naughty step' now! Do NOT pass GO. Do NOT collect 200!

 

Sorry sir, won't happen again.

[AndyID]

Maybe there's nothing new to say and they know nothing about US steam to contribute.

 

Would it have been acceptable if it was about UK steam?

[Coryton]

I do hope Tornado gets fixed soon so this thread can reach its conclusion......

 

You think that will stop us?

[jjb1970]

We haven't yet achieved the internet thread nirvana of realising Godwin's Law yet, we can't stop until then.

[Hroth]

We haven't yet achieved the internet thread nirvana of realising Godwin's Law yet, we can't stop until then.

They bombed our chippie y'know.....

[Trainshed Terry]

I know! Tongue in cheek!

 

That is a interesting design concept.

[2750Papyrus]

I have just read "Henry Charles Webster - Man of Steam" by Dorienne Roughley.  Webster was Assistant District Locomotive Superintendent at King's Cross in the 1930s.  After retirement he wrote "2750 Legend of a Locomotive", which was a major influence in forming a nine year old's future interests and passion! 

 

Of relevance to our topic heading is an anecdote regarding an A3 which had arrived from Peterborough on two cylinders.  The middle big end strap and brasses were missing and the piston head was resting on the bogie stretcher.  The driver claimed not to have heard it go and that there was nothing wrong with the exhaust beat after he had pulled her up, whilst he ascribed what must have been a very bad steam blow to a gland gone.

 

Is anyone able to comment on this reported incident?

[JimC]

Personally I think they were a bit premature in saying that speed had nothing to do with the failure.

If, when they took it apart, there wasn't a trace of the lubricant that they'd normally expect to find then it would be a very safe bet it wasn't speed related. Similarly if there was no oil in the immediate feed.