Bachmann 2020 Range

[JSpencer]

3 hours ago, MarkSG said:

 

There's very little to be learned by asking people what price they are prepared to pay, at least for a product that forms part of an established range of products (such as model railways).

 

There are two main reasons. Firstly, whatever you charge, it has to be profitable, because if it isn't there's no point making the product in the first place. For any product, the cheapest you can sell it for is determined by the costs involved in making and marketing it. And you, as the producer, are the only person in a position to answer that question.

 

Secondly, for any product that is part of an established market, you have real sales historic figures to go by. You don't need to ask people what they will pay, because you already know what they will pay. The only time this becomes an issue at all is if your own costs are rising faster than inflation, and you have to decide whether you will be OK with raising your own prices in line with your costs or if you need to hold price rises down to RPI levels even at the cost of reduced margin. But even then, previous customer behaviour is a better predictor than customer opinion.

 

Also, you have to bear in mind that the optimal pricing strategy is not one which results in the largest volume of sales, it's the one which results in the highest overall profits. Sometimes, that does mean piling 'em high and selling 'em cheap. But, more often, it's more profitable to sell fewer at a higher price than to sell more at a lower price. And an optimal pricing strategy can often include multiple price points, with end-of-run discounting built into the forecasts. The average consumer has little to no understanding of how all this works, so their opinion on an ideal price is not, by any means, an informed one.

 

The one occasion when customer opinion on price can be useful is when you're thinking of launching an entirely new product that has no counterpart in anything you, or anyone else, has ever produced in the past. In that case, asking "how much would you pay for...?" can be a valuable data point. But even then, it's generally accepted that you add at least 50% to the average of what you are told, because consumers almost always underestimate their willingness to pay.  Or, rather, the ones who are actually likely to buy it will underestimate their willingness to pay, and the opinions of those who won't buy it are of no value to you.

 

 

The market my company is in (networks) is highly established, and highly bench marked, but we still do price sensitive surveys. They cost peanuts and yes it allows us to optimise profit by ensuring we are correctly priced. We also found for some new products we could increase price, others could be killed off before heavy investment was made. My point is, they have sales data, they know what the competition charges but with price becoming more sensitive, they don't have direct feedback within their current surveys which fail to look at it. Maybe the data will be useless, maybe it cannot be measured here ,but so far, no one has tried this kind of survey in this market.

 

[TomScrut]

One thing that I aren't sure they consider other than marking up, is £/cm when it comes to wagons. I.e. how much it costs to build a decent sized train. I bought 3 pairs of Dapol GBRF MJAs at £38 each (discounted). So I got a 6 wagon train for £114, but would have been £150 RRP.

 

Now whilst I haven't seen them with my own eyes the GBRF JNA-Ts are £209.99 for a pack of 4. So over £300 for a train just over a metre long before loco. But regardless of how good they might be I'd rather have the Dapol ones and another loco! The Dapol ones aren't bad, I'd argue they were quite good really. BUT, at least to begin with, the JNA-Ts seem to have sold well although these may be at the early bird rates.

 

I love the Accurascale PCAs but I'd probably want 9 or 12 and wasn't willing to spend £210/280 on that length of train.

 

But OTOH the Revolution KFA timber wagons and IWA box wagons, 2 twin packs at £140 makes about a 1.2m train making them good value IMO.

 

I know each wagon has the overhead of couplers ladders and details which only appear once on a wagon, but longer ones also tend to have added complexity such as bogies or in the case of them being thin need good bracing.

 

In the case of the Bachmann range, the DB HKA looks good, but at £50 whilst better value than the JNA-Ts and PCAs in terms of £/cm they are still £200+ for a 1-1.2m long train.

 

Maybe it's just I am tight but I just think wagons seem to be getting too dear unless you just want to run a loco with a couple of them which I don't think anybody aims to do other than with flasks etc. where it is prototypical.

[Ron Ron Ron]

I’m glad Tom brings wagons back into this discussion.

There’s far too much focus on Locos IMHO.

 

Some modern wagons require almost as much, if not more complexity and detail than some locos, hence the cost.

We’ve already discussed Bachmann’s supposed reluctance to re-run their more detailed and expensive past models. Other companies are prepared to take the risk, but from a different financial footing.

I also look at the total cost of building a decently representative  (in my own eyes) rake of wagons, so rather than looking at the cost of an individual wagon being £30, £40 or £50, I’m looking at how much 5 to 10 of them will cost to obtain what I consider to be a reasonably representative train, that can realistically fit my layout.

That’s where it gets expensive.

[rogerzilla]

I don't think it's about the level of detail, more that limited production runs don't amortise the design and tooling costs over a sufficiently large number of items.  The marginal cost of production is probably a few quid but you're paying a share of the £100,000 (or whatever) that it cost to tool up for that wagon.    In the olden days Hornby et al would crank out the same stuff for years with maybe the odd change in number or paint colour.  I wonder how many LWB 4-wheeled open wagons, Jinties or Flying Scotsmen they've flogged?

 

If the market was bigger and Bachmann sold tens of thousands of each type of wagon, they might be able to bring the price down.  That can only really happen in the train set market, though.

[TomScrut]

Is the HKA actually new tooling or is it a new print on the HHA? I know the HHA was based on the HKA but not sure there are physical differences?

[TomScrut]

30 minutes ago, Ron Ron Ron said:

I’m glad Tom brings wagons back into this discussion.

There’s far too much focus on Locos IMHO.

 

Some modern wagons require almost as much, if not more complexity and detail than some locos, hence the cost.

We’ve already discussed Bachmann’s supposed reluctance to re-run their more detailed and expensive past models. Other companies are prepared to take the risk, but from a different financial footing.

I also look at the total cost of building a decently representative  (in my own eyes) rake of wagons, so rather than looking at the cost of an individual wagon being £30, £40 or £50, I’m looking at how much 5 to 10 of them will cost to obtain what I consider to be a reasonably representative train, that can realistically fit my layout.

That’s where it gets expensive.

 

Exactly. 1-1.25m is ideal for my sidings and the layout too so that's where I try to go.

[Dominion]

For anyone that can't wait for the arrival of new Bachmann products, I just received a model that was new to me.

It is a 7 plank PO wagon of Gardner of Norwich. It is a special commission from Bure Valley Models at the Bure Valley Railway.

It was released in August last year. I haven't seen it mentioned anywhere else so I thought I would give it a plug here. 

All sales from the shop support the narrow gauge railway which is operated as a not for profit.

I have no connection, I am just very pleased with my new wagon.

As most of us on this thread are keen to see new Bachmann models and as this one may not be well known I thought it OK to put on this topic, but if inappropriate I will remove it.

 

I enclose a link to the wagon on their website here.

http://www.burevalleymodels.com/p/15116/37-076R---7-plank-open-Gardner---BVR-Exclusive

 

 

 

 

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

1 hour ago, rogerzilla said:

I don't think it's about the level of detail, more that limited production runs don't amortise the design and tooling costs over a sufficiently large number of items.  The marginal cost of production is probably a few quid but you're paying a share of the £100,000 (or whatever) that it cost to tool up for that wagon.    In the olden days Hornby et al would crank out the same stuff for years with maybe the odd change in number or paint colour.  I wonder how many LWB 4-wheeled open wagons, Jinties or Flying Scotsmen they've flogged?

 

If the market was bigger and Bachmann sold tens of thousands of each type of wagon, they might be able to bring the price down.  That can only really happen in the train set market, though.

I believe Bachmann may have done the likes of what is suggested in your penultimate sentence, with their RCH 12/13T and BR 1/108 16T mineral wagons. Relatively cheap to tool, the wooden bodied types endlessly 'churnable' in PO liveries, (see above) and produced in some volume. The repeat batches of the 16T mineral in the early 2000s sold out within a couple of weeks from release: small wonder as the price was lower than what a completed plastic kit from Parkside would have cost to build and paint to an equivalent finish, and any late BR steam layout needs these by the wagonload.

 

Very different with the contemporary  bogie freight stock they were then also introducing. Priced much the same as coaches, and you could see where the money had gone in complexity of construction, detail and paint finish, combined with the effect of inevitably smaller sales volumes. It was necessary to wait for a good 'summer offer' to make a similar length contemporary freight train anywhere near as economically as was possible with the 4W steam era freight stock.

[Neal Ball]

On 24/01/2020 at 19:08, mdvle said:

 

Not a proper marketing survey, but 3 years ago another user created a poll on RMweb regarding the GWR Toplights and what people would expect in a RTR model.

 

Given the complexities of even attempting a RTR model this would be an expensive model, and at the time of the poll the Bachmann Mk2f was already at a RRP of £55 and other coaches were at a similar price point.

 

Yet 42% of respondents (140 people voted) expected a model at under £50, and a further 30% would only go up to £60.

 

So a full 70% expected a complicated model with limited appeal to come in at a price equivalent to the far simpler and more popular Mk2f.  So yes, a survey about pricing is as stated by Phil unlikely to generate any valid data.

 

https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/118689-gwr-toplights-poll/

 

That was me!

 

3 years ago I launched the Toplight poll. At the time rumours were circulating that a manufacturer was considering making a range of Toplight carriages. A price point at that stage of under £50 was not realistic, in my view.

 

Back on topic: Bachmann 2020: Yesterday I received my new catalogue and sat down, tea in hand and had a look.... comparing it to the Hornby one as that was still to hand.

 

Whilst accepting that Bachmann need to catch up (didn’t they also say that last year?) their offering for 2020 is very poor. A few years ago Hornby had the same issues and were very behind, but by using additional factories they have resolved it. Presumably that option is not available to Bachmann....

 

I have emailed Bachmann, given them my thoughts, which are pretty much the same as already discussed on here. At the same time I gave them details of another member of the collectors club in New Zealand whose label was included with mine. Little GDPR breach!

[Ron Ron Ron]

While it’s disappointing to receive a catalogue that doesn’t herald the (future date unknown) arrival of some interesting and exciting new models, in retrospect, I’m rather glad that there’s nothing more being added to my wish list at the moment.

There’s already far too much on that list, especially with the Hattons 66’s and a growing list of various new (expensive) wagons, not to mention a new Class 59, new 37’s, 158’s and a couple of DB 60’s.

That wish list could easily top out at several thousands of pounds, if one was so inclined.

Even with a much bigger budget than is probably average, I’m going to have to exercise a lot of restraint and common sense.

There’s so much catching up to do and so many “forthcoming models” in the pipeline, the last thing I need personally, is even more shiny trinkets being dangled in front of my eyes.

 

Ron

[Butler Henderson]

Seems entirely sensible to me  given all the flak they have had for models not appearing. That was not helped by magazines and retailers advertising new announcements as being for 201x when the announcements have always been of models they expected to, and admittedly have not, released by Sept the following year. It was pretty obvious last year the backlog had reached enormous lengths. I posted a list of it and got some abuse in doing so while another poster posted what was actually going to come out in 2019 and that got criticised as being fiction as it contained none of the 2019 items.

Given 3 months notice is akin to what Farish used to do and I do not remember people having problems with that.

[tetsudofan]

Bit  but I have to smile every time  I read about having to wait for at least five years for models (such as for the Cl.158 DMU) to arrive when yesterday I ascertained that a SNCF AGC 4-car sound-fitted Diesel Multiple Unit that was pre-ordered on June 1st, 2010 (yes 2010!!) has finally arrived at my local hobby shop. 

 

The price of this model produced by LS Models is mouth-watering, close to £700 for the sound-fitted version and only £550 for the analogue version.

 

Pension Fund raiding will, I think, be necessary...….

 

Keith

[mdvle]

9 hours ago, Neal Ball said:

Whilst accepting that Bachmann need to catch up (didn’t they also say that last year?) their offering for 2020 is very poor. A few years ago Hornby had the same issues and were very behind, but by using additional factories they have resolved it. Presumably that option is not available to Bachmann....

 

Except of course that, based on the Bachmann letter that has been posted, the catalogue does not represent Bachmann's 2020 offerings.

 

There is the possibility of further announcements of reruns in May, August, and November (and if I recall correctly a hint of maybe something more at the end of the year if things go well).

 

It will be interesting to see how things develop, because the making announcements 4 times a year doesn't appear to mesh very well with the idea of a yearly catalogue.

[7APT7]

17 minutes ago, mdvle said:

 

There is the possibility of further announcements of reruns in May, August, and November (and if I recall correctly a hint of maybe something more at the end of the year if things go well).

 

It will be interesting to see how things develop, because the making announcements 4 times a year doesn't appear to mesh very well with the idea of a yearly catalogue.

 

Maybe its an internal memo that's been put out instead... sounds like there target Bonus' Announcement for each of those months to each employee lol

Can't help but think, what Targets have they achieved to deserve any Bonus lol

 

Regards

Jamie

[Stefen1988]

The first Quartal Announcment will be in February.

[Steamport Southport]

There's an announcement in February....

 

From the email that BCC members get.

 

 

Quote

The Bachmann Collectors Club team alongside representatives from other Bachmann departments are excited to invite you to our Spring Showcase – an event that has previously been strictly trade only where our new product range is unveiled.

The first one kicks off at the Hinckley Rugby Club, Leicester Road, Hinckley LE10 3DR between 10am and 2pm on Wednesday 5th February and we will be holding three more throughout the year in various locations around the country (further details on these will be published nearer the time).

 

 

 

Jason

[mdvle]

8 minutes ago, 7APT7 said:

Maybe its an internal memo that's been put out instead... sounds like there target Bonus' Announcement for each of those months to each employee lol

 

So Andy Y posted the relevant sections of the letter that went out to Bachmann Collectors Club members.

 

The relevant quote is:

 

Quote

these quarterly product launches, we’ll be hosting a Trade Showcase event in a different part of the country each quarter

 

So if February is the first, then quarterly indicates something to come in May, August, and November.

 

So by all means consider it all a big joke with your funny reaction, but it is merely stating what Bachmann themselves have stated as how things will work going forward.

 

Complete post by Andy Y can be read here - https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/149669-Bachmann-2020-range/&do=findComment&comment=3810322

[brushman47544]

Quote

The Bachmann Collectors Club team alongside representatives from other Bachmann departments are excited to invite you to our Spring Showcase – an event that has previously been strictly trade only where our new product range is unveiled.

Careful how you read that. There’s no punctuation after the hyphen so I read the text in bold as part of the explanation of what happened in the past, not that this February will be when Bachmann will announce its new products. There may be announcements of imminent releases as stated by Andy Y but not a new product range as in the past.

[Steamport Southport]

1 hour ago, brushman47544 said:

Careful how you read that. There’s no punctuation after the hyphen so I read the text in bold as part of the explanation of what happened in the past, not that this February will be when Bachmann will announce its new products. There may be announcements of imminent releases as stated by Andy Y but not a new product range as in the past.

 

I highlighted that bit of text. It's an email received a couple of days ago.

 

The announcement is on February the 4th. Confirmed by letter and email, also corroborated by Rails and others.

 

https://railsofsheffield.com/news/articles/3264-Bachmann-2020-range

 

Bachmann 2020 Range - Coming Soon!

 

The new Bachmann 2020 range will be announced on 4th February at 10.00am

We will be listing all the range on our website ASAP and all will be available to pre-order.

Sign up to our mailing list to be one of the first to know about it.

 

Again my bold.

 

 

 

Jason

[Ron Ron Ron]

Posted on the Bachmann web site on Friday afternoon....

 

”New products will now be announced in the quarterly British Railway Announcements supplement that will be supplied with the Bachmann Times, the official magazine of the Bachmann Collectors Club.

The Spring 2020 Bachmann Times, complete with the first edition of British Railway Announcements, will be published at the start of February and the new products featured will all be released within three months of announcement.”

 

 

.

[mdvle]

5 hours ago, Steamport Southport said:

 

I highlighted that bit of text. It's an email received a couple of days ago.

 

The announcement is on February the 4th. Confirmed by letter and email, also corroborated by Rails and others.

 

https://railsofsheffield.com/news/articles/3264-Bachmann-2020-range

 

Bachmann 2020 Range - Coming Soon!

 

The new Bachmann 2020 range will be announced on 4th February at 10.00am

We will be listing all the range on our website ASAP and all will be available to pre-order.

Sign up to our mailing list to be one of the first to know about it.

 

Again my bold.

 

I believe the point being made by brushman47544 is that, per Andy Y's assorted posts, the only "new" announcements at this event will be new liveries/additional runs of existing products that are expected to arrive in the 3 months following February 4th (and that Rails of Sheffield notice was posted to this thread several weeks ago).

 

There will be no announcement of new tooling items.

 

 

 

 

Edited January 27, 2020 by mdvle

[Ron Ron Ron]

8 hours ago, mdvle said:

 

......the only "new" announcements at this event will be new liveries/additional runs of existing products that are expected to arrive in the 3 months following February 4th .........

 

As seemingly confirmed by Bachmann in the latest statement posted on their web site on Friday afternoon (see the previous post at the bottom of page 16 ).

February’s announcement will be restricted to what’s included in the first quarterly edition of the British Railway Announcements supplement.

 

 

.

[adb968008]

I found this to be sufficiently informative.

 

Am I guessing along the right lines that Febs announcement is going to be an update of this, with the last 5 months of 2020 removed ?

 

Edited January 27, 2020 by adb968008

[John M Upton]

Does that mean a Froth Fest of speculating, wish listing and general cries of "Nothing there for me" etc. etc. four times a year now?

 

Yikes....

[Legend]

13 minutes ago, John M Upton said:

Does that mean a Froth Fest of speculating, wish listing and general cries of "Nothing there for me" etc. etc. four times a year now?

 

Yikes....

 

You forgot "why don't they do this variant ?"  Usually in relation to Compounds and Crimson