Hornby 2022 Range - pre-announcement frothing - now closed

[Chris56057]

Wouldn't be surprised if we see a re-tooled 56 from Hornby, reference the push back to next winter of the soon to be released large logo and blue variants. 

 

A new 31 would be a welcome addition too. 

[TheSignalEngineer]

2 hours ago, Flying Pig said:

Really an LMS general service vestibule third should be on Hornby's to do list, as for heaven's sake should that PIII driving trailer. 

Between 1923 and 1932 the LMS built 1305 Vestibule Open 3rds and 90 BTOs. From 1933 to 1939 they added 664 and 189 respectively followed by another 350 BTOs in four lots from 1945 so we are talking 2319 TOs and 279 BTOs. They already have the design work done for the D1904 which was used for the Coronation Scot conversions and IIRC one of the episodes of the Engine Shed had an early sample with standard roof vents rather than the pressure ventilation cowl.

Regarding the P3 Driving Trailer Conversion they would need a suitable loco as the only ones available at the moment are made by Bachmann. That would mean doing either an LMS 3P 2-6-2T or a BR 84000, which could be a spin off from the work already done on the 78000

Edited December 29, 2021 by TheSignalEngineer

[adb968008]

5 hours ago, Flying Pig said:

 

Which says something about how many of these vehicles the LMS had.  Unfortunately flashy collectors items are apparently more profitable than general service stock, which is why there is an rtr model of the LNER Hush Hush but not of the LMS vans that outnumbered it by four or five orders of magnitude.

 

Really an LMS general service vestibule third should be on Hornby's to do list, as for heaven's sake should that PIII driving trailer.  Fowler 2-6-2T if they must have a loco to go with it (much more distinctive in appearance than the Stanier class, if equally insipid).

The desire for Quick wins is a poor sign for the future imo.

 

These models are expensive to us, but also the manufacturer.

 

Whilst they might get a return on things like the W1/APT etc how many will they sell in 5-10 years time ? - remember the s/h market has been the killing fields of re-releases/inflation for decades.

 

Things like the Fowler (or Stanier) 2-6-2T generally survive re-releases via different numbers for many years (whilst still washing their face in year 1).

Anyone else beside me, will be unsurprised if Hornby lucky balls another obscure prototype in 2022 ? - i’m thinking it’ll be 6202’s turn..

 

 

 

Edited December 29, 2021 by adb968008

[TheSignalEngineer]

24 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

Things like the Fowler (or Stanier) 2-6-2T generally survive re-releases via different numbers for many years (whilst still washing their face in year 1).

I think these could become a model like the Ivatt 2-6-2T or GWR Prairies, going through many variations over a number of years. Twenty Fowlers had condensing gear for the Midland division London services and a few carried push-pull gear for a while. 

The Staniers were more numerous, carrying three different boilers and two types of chimney, although I have not seen any with push-pull gear, did any get it?

The Staniers also travelled widely having been noted over most of the LMS system from Bath to Blair Atholl, London, Wales and northern England.

Edited December 29, 2021 by TheSignalEngineer

[Legend]

4 hours ago, newbryford said:

 

So how come the deluxe models have seemingly sold out very quickly? Not a lot of resistance there.

 

Depends  how many they made of course 

 

I see a lot of comments on YouTube, Facebook that while it’s an excellent model, the old one was pretty good too and they won’t be embarking on full renewal .  So it’s interesting that the version with most differences ie fans and glazing is the one that’s selling out whereas maybe the more mundane versions are a bit slower to sell.  Which shows that if you create sufficient differential there is still money in the hobby that will buy . 
 

one thing I will say about Bachmann is that you can buy with confidence knowing the QC is there . I did see in a video that they test every single loco . Hornby could learn from this . There’s only so many flashy new engines you can produce , but if they arrive damaged or defective sooner or later people just don’t buy .  I think Hornby are pushing peoples patience 

Edited December 29, 2021 by Legend

[Great Eastern Lady]

An early BR diesel shunter like 04, 06 etc in green or blue or both

[adb968008]

Newer models tend to lean more towards the DCC modeller.

 

So it should be that the higher spec DCC ones sell best.. otherwise they are making the wrong thing.

 

 

Or is it…

 

Instead they are making a lot more DC than DCC, but its the DC modellers thats paying premiums to support DCC modellers features ?

 

 

Either way, when it comes to product brands, luxury versions generally less produced than mundane versions, but buyers pay a much higher premium for that luxury.

 

So are DCC modellers are getting something cheaper than it should be ?

 

 

 

 

Edited December 29, 2021 by adb968008
Edit my pretty poor grammer !

[farren]

15 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

Newer models tend to lean more towards the DCC modeller.

 

So it should be that the higher spec DCC ones sell best.. otherwise they are making the wrong thing.

 

 

Or is it…

 

They are making a lot more DC than DCC, but its the DC modellers thats paying premiums to support DCC modellers features ?

 

 

Either way, when it comes to product brands, luxury versions generally less than mundane versions, but pay a much higher premium fir that luxury.

 

So are DCC modellers are getting something cheaper than it should be ?

 

 

 

 

What ? You do know model railways are a luxury, it’s a Hobby. And as most models are sold as DCC ready and therefore up to the buyer to decide, which method they wish to run neither is really paying for the other user type. The only extra is the eight pin plug fitted as standard. But how much would it cost to tool up so models could be sold as both dcc ready and DC only. Plus the problem of running out of one or the other. 

Edited December 29, 2021 by farren

[woodenhead]

5 minutes ago, farren said:

What ? You do know model railways are a luxury, it’s a Hobby. And as most models are sold as DCC ready and therefore up to the buyer to decide, which method they wish to run neither is really paying for the other user type. The only extra is the eight pin plug fitted as standard. But how much would it cost to tool up so models could be sold as both dcc ready and DC only. Plus the problem of running out of one or the other. 

I think @adb968008's point was that models are designed for DCC but sold as DC, if you recall back in the days before all the electronic wizardry there wasn't a circuit board between the wheels and the motor and if you look at all the gubbins inside of a modern loco from someone like Bachmann, Accurascale and Rapido they are full of electronics to make the loco all singing and dancing when the chip is inserted, even on DC to use sound features on a sound loco you need the chip installed.

[Crocodile414]

Hoping for the LNER Silver Jubilee and/or the Coronation coaches. Highly unlikely I know but I can live in hope until the 10th! 

 

I suspect the railroad range will be strong again, it seems to have been very popular in recent years. 

 

Not long to wait now! 

[jamieb]

The LMS Fowler and Stanier 262t's already mentioned are one of the biggest open goals left in the RTR field.Similarly a J69 for the LNER is to my mind a no-brainer.

For Scottish modellers,how about a D40? 'Gordon Highlander' is preserved,GNSR/LNER/BR livery options,plus the massive bonus of the SECR having five and it's already been shown how popular that livery is.

Finally,they missed a great opportunity of updating their GWR pannier offering this year by doing a 2021 class,but it would still be a seller with open and closed cab options,saddle and pannier tanks,survived into the 1950s,some were autofitted too,as well as some very strange rebuild oddities (coach style cladding anyone?)

Please not a C2X though as mine is almost finished

[The Johnster]

IMHO and with little empirical evidence to back up said HO, there are many layout owners who are wealthy enough to afford large numbers of locomotives and larger numbers of stock, and have 'fleets' of various classes of locomotive.  They rely on RTR being correct and to a high standard because operaing such sizeable layouts means that they do not have the time to improve more basic models, and are happy to buy 'full fat' in quantity.  They are not a majority in terms of population, but they have enormous buying power. 

 

Now, this is not a moan about people who have more things than me of whom I'm jealous and resentful, nor is it me trying to assert a superiority of modelling skill over them (I am in no position to do that, my own efforts being pretty crude and basic).  Building a layout on the principle that good quality full fat DCC is within your budget is a perfectly practicable and sensible approach, though most of us can't afford it and don't have the space, that's just how the world is.  But, as an example, if you have a layout that can handle scale length 60 ore even 100 wagon trains, you may have a requirment for 4 or 5 hundred mineral wagons, whereas my South Wales BLT, on which mineral wagons should be dominant, can get by with less that 20 and has no room in the fiddle yard and colliery yard combined for more than about 25.

 

Tranlate this to Class 47s or 31s.  Someone like me would require one at the most and opt for the plainest DC £150 version that satisfied my requirement for scale and detail, and would be happy to work up one that didn't, but the big layout man might want 10 of each at £300 a pop for the full fat all-singing all-dancing hi-fi ediion with working fans, super sound, working backlit instrument panels and so on.  £6k beer vouchers.

 

The big layout man's spending power rightly has more influence on persuading manufacturers to produce models than mine, because that's how the commercial retail  world works, a democracy in which beer tokens have one vote each, not people.  I sort of ride on the back of the market demand of modellers whose philosophy and approach is different to mine, and am now too old to be bothered with overthrowing capitalism and joining the revolution; I'll put up with things as they are, thank you, and not rock any boats.

 

This is much more prevalent in America of course, where layouts occupying the cellar area which is the entire footprint of a large detached house with several scale route miles of track on multiple levels with a glorious disregard for scale curvature dimensions, hundreds of locomotives and thousands of freight cars are common.  Study of the trackplan usually reveals that these are actually very complex looking version of a single track continuous run, which makes sense because they would be overwhelming to operate otherwise, and it must take a train a good while to run around the circuit with it's spirals and S bend climbs and descents, while the operator follows it around with a handheld wireless DCC controller. 

 

One sees these on Pinterest, and their influence on trackplan design for much smaller layouts is palpable, with even 8'x4' 'beginner' layouts featuring inverted figure 8 plans.  Many require a very high standard of woodworking for the baseboards, which Americans call benchwork, and I would suspect that many of them feature professionally built benchwork.  Some European layouts are going this way as well, but as even large British properties rarely feature this sort of footprint cellar, we tend to build big layouts in specially contructed sheds.  Nobody TTBOMK has yet attempted one of these American style layouts with thier wall-hugging mountains and peninsulas in a British outline mode, but if the idea did take off here it would have a major infuence on the marketing departments of the RTR producers.

 

American and European RTR companies seem to be happier than ours to set price levels high enough to a) dissuade a good number of British modellers; we're already moaning about price increases, and b) feature full fat detail and DCC features.

 

If you apply this thinking to Diagram N auto trailers, Dapol do one in 7mm that they inherited when they absorbed Lionheart.  An auto trailer, especially a 57 footer, is a means of providing a passenger train on a 7mm British style shunting problem minimum space layout of the sort that many 7mm have room for.  Like Signal Engineer, I keep hoping for it to be put through a shrink ray and produced in 4mm, but the 4mm market is not the same, and Dap have so far refrained from any temptation they may have to do this.  It would go head to head with Baccy's A38 and Hornby's antediluvian ex-Airfix A30, and while I would love a pre-A30 trailer to be available, I think Dap would have done this by now if they were going to.

 

I have a selection of trailers that were actually at Tondu between 1953 and 1958; my period is 1948-58 and auto working was introduced at Tondu in 1953 as part of the new Cardiff Valleys 'Regular Interval' timetable that increase auto working all over the area and led to the introduction of 'Cyclops' compartment trailers and the fitting of some 4575s with auto gear, some of which were allox TDU.  There are significant gaps, though. 

 

The initial 1953 TDU allocation of trailers featured gaslit types, as the thinking was that the slow running speeds, especially on the Porthcawl branch, would be incapable of maintaining charge in dynamo-fed batteries, which proved not to be true in the event, but the first allocation consisted of 2x A10, 2x N, a TVR gangwayed twin set, and W 3338, the last extant Clifton Downs driving trailer, originally withdrawn in 1948 and re-instated in 1951.  Of these, only W 3338 is available, in kit form from Roxey, and Iain D kindly built one for me.  It was withdrawn for the final time at the end of 1953. 

 

The A10s lasted until the end of 1954 and the Ns until the end of 1955, replaced by A30s, and of course these are easily obtainable.  I have worked them up a little and correctly numbered them as W 190 W and W 194 W.  Comet kits have provide a Cyclops driving trailer and intermediate all 3rd, which are not yet complete and need door handles, hinges, and grab rails before being put into service; the driving trailer is another Iain D build.  These arrived at Tondu in 1955 AFAICT.  The A38s, sorry Bachmann, did not turn up until 1959, so are a bit late for me. 

 

So I'm in a not dissimilar position to Signal Engineer in terms of auto trailers, and would love to see A10, N, or TVR gangwayed twin set being available.  I have 2 worked up (with card interiors and floors) K's whitemetal kit A31s, both correct Newport Division trailers, but used in the Chepstow/Monmouth/Ross on Wye services and never at Tondu, but they are at least 57' panelled trailers and will have to 'do' for now.  A Bachmann 4575 is not quite capable of hauling two of them on level curves; one is paired with the Clifton Downs and the other with an A30.  The most likely new RTR trailer going by numbers produced by the GW is probably the A26, a 70footer, and 70 footers were not used in South Wales so no use to me...

 

There are also A7 and Diagram Z matchboarded trailers available from Rue d'Etropal of this parish as 3D bodyshell prints via his Shapeways shop, not cheap and requiring a good bit of work to finish.  None were at Tondu, or I'd consider it; bogies of various suitable types can be had from Stafford Road Works, also on Shapeways, and the underframe detail is do-able even to someone of my hamfistedness.  I've considered having a go at scratching a TVR twinset, very attactive and distinctive vehicles, especailly last surviving set which Caerphilly works turned out in unlined maroon in 1956; it lasted 2 more years at Tondu.

 

I live in hope, which is essential because I also live on the mean streets of inner-city Cardiff...

 

 

 

[TheSignalEngineer]

2 hours ago, TheSignalEngineer said:

The Staniers also travelled widely having been noted over most of the LMS system from Bath to Blair Atholl, London, Wales and northern England.

Looking around I have found Fowlers at Birminham Snow Hill, Clapham Junction, Loughborough Junction, and Hither Green as well as the usual St Pancras and Widened Lines locations. 

Staniers appeared as far apart as Barking and Swansea, Afon Wen and Leeds, but surely the most far flung must have been 40150 which was pictured at Perth, Inverness and Thurso in 1960/61

[TheSignalEngineer]

3 hours ago, The Johnster said:

in 1953 as part of the new Cardiff Valleys 'Regular Interval' timetable that increase auto working all over the area and led to the introduction of 'Cyclops' compartment trailers

My first Cut'n'shut of an RTR coach was to do an impression of a Cyclops from an Airfix B set coach I bought off the second hand counter display at Beatties above New Street station. One worked behind a 64xx on the Bumble Hole in the latter days of the service. I think it may be lying derelict in the loft, the bogies having been robbed for something else.

Edited December 29, 2021 by TheSignalEngineer
typo

[DutyDruid]

18 minutes ago, The Johnster said:

 

This is much more prevalent in America of course, where layouts occupying the cellar area which is the entire footprint of a large detached house with several scale route miles of track on multiple levels with a glorious disregard for scale curvature dimensions, hundreds of locomotives and thousands of freight cars are common.  Study of the trackplan usually reveals that these are actually very complex looking version of a single track continuous run, which makes sense because they would be overwhelming to operate otherwise, and it must take a train a good while to run around the circuit with it's spirals and S bend climbs and descents, while the operator follows it around with a handheld wireless DCC controller. 

 

 

I lived there for a while in the early 90, did numerous home layout tours and became a regular operator on a basement N Gauge layout.  I catalogued some of my experiences in a blog to keep other Club members entertained during Lockdown 1.0.  Blog can be found here

 

It is indeed a fascinatingly different world to the one we are used to in this country but the above is a pretty good description of one of those layouts.

 

21 minutes ago, The Johnster said:

 

Nobody TTBOMK has yet attempted one of these American style layouts with thier wall-hugging mountains and peninsulas in a British outline mode, but if the idea did take off here it would have a major infuence on the marketing departments of the RTR producers.

 

 

I'd like to say "hold my beer and watch" but the reality is that you just couldn't do it in the footprint of a Brit house and the concept of operations that the Yanks use is so radically different from ours that I would be very surprised if any self respecting American would want to depart from what they currently do to embrace the UK approach to operation. 

 

The US way is for a driver to pick up a train in a classification year (read as fiddle yard) and drive it through a series of "industries" dropping off and picking up cars (trucks) as they go and ducking when the despatcher sends a passenger train to make them clear the running line.  All this not timetable driven, rather it's driven by a traffic generator programme like Wagonflow.  The closest I've come to it in the UK is on a big clockwork tinplate layout that expects to be at Warley the next time it happens.  There we "rehearse" by renting a community centre hall for a weekend but the principle difference is that the operators are "signalmen" sending trains between stations rather than drivers taking a train the whole length of the layout.  Trying to adopt the US approach on a UK layout would need both drivers AND signalmen - a big ask to get enough manpower to turn to to make a layout with say 5 towns on it work.

 

Johnster's second point has gotten me thinking, obviously I knew that the US market is very different (and very much cheaper) than the UK market - or at least it was back then - but I had never given much thought as to why, simply writing it off to Rip-off Britain (I worked in IT so was quite used to the price differentials in PCs and so on).  But you're right Sir, the average US layout (even a small one) does indeed have high tens of locomotives and high hundreds of freight cars all belonging to the layout owner so it is in the best interest of the manufacturers to keep the prices as low as possible to fuel that market.

 

Question: what could we do to that would drive that sort of market in the UK?  Sadly, I fear not a lot...

 

[Steamport Southport]

Nah. I think most British purchasers are more like me.

 

They make about five to ten locomotive purchases a year from spare money they have. After about ten years they have somewhere between 50 to 100 locomotives. How many of us keep things? I would expect most of us are in someway hoarders.

 

 

We're not all rich men turning up at a model railway shop and saying. "Here's £10,000, sell me a model railway". I know that has happened in the past. There was a story about a Lord that used to send his chauffeur to Hattons to pick up his model trains in a Rolls!

 

 

Jason

[RJS1977]

33 minutes ago, DutyDruid said:

 

Johnster's second point has gotten me thinking, obviously I knew that the US market is very different (and very much cheaper) than the UK market - or at least it was back then - but I had never given much thought as to why, simply writing it off to Rip-off Britain (I worked in IT so was quite used to the price differentials in PCs and so on).  But you're right Sir, the average US layout (even a small one) does indeed have high tens of locomotives and high hundreds of freight cars all belonging to the layout owner so it is in the best interest of the manufacturers to keep the prices as low as possible to fuel that market.

 

Question: what could we do to that would drive that sort of market in the UK?  Sadly, I fear not a lot...

 

 

The US/Canadian market has the advantage that there is a very much larger population, and correspondingly a much larger number of modellers. This means that models sell in larger numbers, so their development costs can be spread over more units, keeping costs down. And as costs are lower, a modeller is more likely to buy more than one, increasing sales volumes further.

 

Conversely, in the UK, the current model is for short production runs, which means development costs are spread over fewer units, pushing prices up, so fewer models sell, so the next production run is shorter, pushing the price up more....

[The Johnster]

There are British lines that might be adaptable to the US basement style, single track main lines such as the Cambrian, Highland, Great North of Scotland.  The Cambrian, and the GW Dolgellau-Morfa Mawddach line, feature on Geoff Taylor's very good layout that has some similarities with the American basement style, a group of interconnected fiddle yards on several levels.  But a difference to the American basements is that this is operated by people passing trains from section to section, like block signalment.  Typical British main lines, double track and with fast curves, do not lend themselves to this sort of modelling. 

 

The best very big British layouts are the likes of Tony Wright and co's Little Bytham, where a fiddle yard despatches a sequence of ECML trains in each direction on to a scale model of the station and it's environs so that they can stretch their legs with realistically sized trains at realistic scale speeds on what was in the models' period one of the fastest stretches of main line in the country.  This imposes serious effort on Tony's locomotives; 14 coach expresses doing scale 90mph or more were normal at the real Little Bytham, as were 60 wagon fitted freights banging along at 60 and sometimes a bit more...  The train then disappears offstage back into the fiddle yard.  It is really 2 layouts, as there is a Midland & Great Northern line crossing the ECML correctly on a bridge, which is a separate layout in it's own right that shares baseboards with LB.

 

This uncompromising scale approach has, I'm sure, influenced more recent British mega-layouts in 7mm and 4mm, such as Pete Waterman's WCML tribute to Peto in Chester cathederal and Simon George's Heaton Lodge, both characterised by the desire to recreate stretches of fairly straight main lines along which to send a series of trains out of the fiddle yard and, ultimately, back to it.  The Horfield exhibition layout is of this sort as well, all plain track and no turnouts on the scenic section.  These layouts are the very opposite of the American basement empires, and are dependent for their success ultimately on the capacity of the fiddle yard to contain the largest possible variety of fixed rake trains, up to the full representation of the line's traffic at the modelled period, their sheer size enabling huge capacity to be built in to the fiddle yards.

 

Cwmdimbath has recently (and almost accidentally) acquired a new baseboard with a colliery on it which increases the size of the layout be about a third, and I have resisted the temptation to fill it with track apart from the colliery, so the running line now has a short but distinct distance of plain track for trains to accellerate or deccellerate on, and I wonder how much I may or may not have been influenced by the American and British megalayouts in this.

 

There is, apparently from my Pinterest observations, a third type, which is a sort of H0 version of the 009 rabbit warren.  Incredible wooden sculptures that twist and loop in all sorts of directions are built, to have track laid on them and be hidden in scenery, and trains dissappear into tunnels but don't come out where you think they should, or even where you think it is possible.   These are in some ways not really model railways at all, not attempting to represent real operation in any way, but are certainly impressive, and often scenically 'interesting'. 

 

Then there are the big German and Dutch public display layouts, full of track and cameos, something going on all the time, fully lit for 'night operation'.  These are commercial businesses, usually successful ones, that depend on complex automated and computerised control systems and a sizeable staff to maintain the layout and stock as well as an IT department.  These cannot be replicated as home layouts as the sheer manpower logistics of running them are beyond even wealthy modellers.

 

Manpower is a limiting factor on the complexity of layouts if not their size.  A complex model trackplan operated realistically needs not far off as many people to drive, route set, and shunt the trains as an equivalent real one; look at Borchester Market!  Automation has not yet progressed to the extent where such a layout can be operated by one man at home and a computer, which is why those American basement empires are often basically single track continuous runs; you can only drive one train at a time, and they accommodate this well, while allowing for several to be operated simultaneously when your friends visit.

[MikeParkin65]

4 hours ago, Legend said:

Depends  how many they made of course 

 

 

I was told on another thread (maybe the Bachmann 47 thread) that there were only 500 of the super delux models in each livery. Given that they were only about £30 more than the ‘standard’ DCC sound version it is perhaps not surprising they all sold quickly. Not sure that constitutes evidence of latent demand for ‘super delux’. 

[mckinneyc]

I would love LNER streamlined stock or an expansion of the Gresley teak stock, like a brake third, brake first, composite or some restaurant vehicles so we can make realistic trains for our Hornby LNER locomotives to haul 

[Butler Henderson]

No doubt the annual haphazard catalogue numbering will occur. The 2020 range of locos allegedly filled up their 4 digit series and jumped to a new 5 digit series but with huge gaps while the R&H 88hp 4wD whilst new 2020 announcement has catalogue numbering dating back a year or so implying they have been planned for some time, although they do not seem to be likely to arrive currently until a years time or more. It will be interesting to see what catalogue numbers the new HST has as the Yesterday series in which it was announced was filmed over a long time including the announcement of 2020 range.

[The Johnster]

3 hours ago, Steamport Southport said:

Nah. I think most British purchasers are more like me.

 

They make about five to ten locomotive purchases a year from spare money they have. After about ten years they have somewhere between 50 to 100 locomotives. How many of us keep things? I would expect most of us are in someway hoarders.

 

 

We're not all rich men turning up at a model railway shop and saying. "Here's £10,000, sell me a model railway". I know that has happened in the past. There was a story about a Lord that used to send his chauffeur to Hattons to pick up his model trains in a Rolls!

 

 

Jason

No, indeed, very few of us are rich men turning up at a model railway shop and saying 'Here's £10, sell me a model railway, but those few of us that are are more of an influence on the market and the manufacturers than the great unwashed of us.  I reckon I spend about 20% of my  disposable on model railway, and if I was pulling in £5k a month that would be £1k.  I suspect few modellers can maintain that level of spending even if they can afford it, becasue after 2 or 3 years they will be struggling to find enough things to buy!  Pete Waterman has shown what can be done with a level of enthusiast knowledge, no mean modelling skill of his own, and money to spend, but even he hasn't cracked the problem of not being able to operate Leamington Spa, two main line stations with goods yards and interchange traffic, satisfactorily on his own.

 

As a lone modeller, I am in fact quite happy with my small but busy BLT, and as a main part of my modelling philosophy involves the abiltiy to go and operate, or model, whenever I like at the drop of a hat, to the extent that I sometimes operate trains by doing a move or two during the adverts (it's only a 2 room flat).  I'm fine with this, and the railway is a continuous and wonderful part of my life.  If I were to have lottery money and American basement space available, I'd rebuild Cwmdimbath to the same trackplan, but to be able to cope with 30 wagon mineral trains and possibly put one or two extra roads in the colliery, which is a little cramped (but then, a lot of South Wales ones were), and use the extra space to model the branch down as far as Glynogwr Jc home signal, which is just to the north of the Cwmdimbath Lane bridge.  I might consider a coking ovens with the Walter's Cornerstone kit, but I'd need to be sure there was time to operate it and keep up with the timetable, and the level of busy that the layout already is, operated to real time, suggests not...

 

There would be a sort of nod to the American basement layouts, in that I would be following the train along about 2 scale miles of branch line with a wireless DCC controller.  No trestle bridges, though.

[mdvle]

5 hours ago, The Johnster said:

Tranlate this to Class 47s or 31s.  Someone like me would require one at the most and opt for the plainest DC £150 version that satisfied my requirement for scale and detail, and would be happy to work up one that didn't, but the big layout man might want 10 of each at £300 a pop for the full fat all-singing all-dancing hi-fi ediion with working fans, super sound, working backlit instrument panels and so on.  £6k beer vouchers.

 

Don't forget, what you and other lack in spending is more than made up by the simply matter of how many of you there are in the hobby vs. the "rich" person.

 

Not sure what the UK is like, but Jason of Rapido has said 50% of the North American sales are to collectors - and I doubt most collectors are buying fleets of locos.

 

5 hours ago, The Johnster said:

This is much more prevalent in America of course, where layouts occupying the cellar area which is the entire footprint of a large detached house with several scale route miles of track on multiple levels with a glorious disregard for scale curvature dimensions, hundreds of locomotives and thousands of freight cars are common.

 

There not as common as the magazines and others would like you to believe.

 

Many parts  of the US doesn't have cellars, and over the last 20 years the basement/cellar has been taken over to be used for regular living space - the media room, extra bedrooms, etc - or now turned into basement apartments to rent out so the home buyers can actually afford to buy the home.  And home sizes have been shrinking, and high rise condos increasing in popularity.

 

A 4x8 would be luxury for many people in North America these days.

 

The one place where there can be a big difference is in the modular layout space - the ability to cheaply rent large spaces like gyms and ice rinks (off season) makes large modular layouts attractive.

 

5 hours ago, The Johnster said:

One sees these on Pinterest, and their influence on trackplan design for much smaller layouts is palpable, with even 8'x4' 'beginner' layouts featuring inverted figure 8 plans.

 

Suspect that is more the case that the 4x8 plans are still for the most part within the toy train part of the hobby, with anyone serious generally going to a shelf layout in a limited space.

 

5 hours ago, The Johnster said:

 Many require a very high standard of woodworking for the baseboards, which Americans call benchwork, and I would suspect that many of them feature professionally built benchwork.

 

Unlikely.  A lot of it is done by the layout owner, often by trial and error.

 

[Pete the Elaner]

9 hours ago, adb968008 said:

The desire for Quick wins is a poor sign for the future imo.

 

These models are expensive to us, but also the manufacturer.

 

Whilst they might get a return on things like the W1/APT etc how many will they sell in 5-10 years time ? - remember the s/h market has been the killing fields of re-releases/inflation for decades.

 

Things like the Fowler (or Stanier) 2-6-2T generally survive re-releases via different numbers for many years (whilst still washing their face in year 1).

Anyone else beside me, will be unsurprised if Hornby lucky balls another obscure prototype in 2022 ? - i’m thinking it’ll be 6202’s turn..

 

 

 

 

I would so love that. I model 2 eras on the WCML: the 1930s/40s & the 1980s/90s. My favourite loco for the former is the turbomotive & it appeared in 4 variations:

LMS crimson lake, with the shorter reverse turbine & no smoke deflectors.

Crimson lake with the longer reverse turbine & smoke deflectors (literature suggests it got both these modifications during the same repair - I have never seen a photo of it in this condition though).

1946 LMS black, but in the same physical condition as above.

BR black, but in the same physical condition as above.

 

As for the earlier comment from@AY Mod, I also found it easier to see their announcements on here. Surely Hornby should get with the times & use a cloud provider. For those unaware, they all have a facility known by some as "auto scaling" which is really cool: It monitors a parameter which can see your system is busy & simply "spins up" extra servers to cope with the demand. When the demand drops, the servers are stopped & they only pay for what they use.

[mdvle]

4 hours ago, DutyDruid said:

Johnster's second point has gotten me thinking, obviously I knew that the US market is very different (and very much cheaper) than the UK market

 

The typical new tooled DC diesel these days retails for about $240, or after conversion plus VAT £215

 

A new tooled Steam loco is over £500.

 

Freight Car / Goods wagon £45

 

Caboose / brake van £90

 

Passenger car / coach £133

 

Yes, the very latest diesel locos have caught up to US prices, but in general US models are more expensive than the UK.

 

4 hours ago, DutyDruid said:

  But you're right Sir, the average US layout (even a small one) does indeed have high tens of locomotives and high hundreds of freight cars all belonging to the layout owner so it is in the best interest of the manufacturers to keep the prices as low as possible to fuel that market.

 

See above, but the market thrives with prices that would upset many UK modellers.

 

4 hours ago, DutyDruid said:

Question: what could we do to that would drive that sort of market in the UK?  Sadly, I fear not a lot...

 

Grass is always greener situation - the UK market is actually far more competitive and thriving than the US market.

 

Who is bring out new tooled models:

 

US - Rapido, Athearn, ScaleTrains, Tangent (and the occasional model - like maybe one a year - from Bachmann (Railroad quality) and 1 every 3 years from Bowser).

 

UK - Hornby, Bachmann, Accurascale, Rapido, Revolution, Rails of Sheffield, Dapol, Heljan, plus smaller operators like Cavalex, Suttons, Kernow, Hattons, KR Models and maybe Planet Industrials.

 

The UK market has a much better market for choice of new product than the US market, it's not even close.

 

4 hours ago, RJS1977 said:

The US/Canadian market has the advantage that there is a very much larger population, and correspondingly a much larger number of modellers.

 

Yes/no.

 

Larger market thanks to population, likely.  But in terms of modellers per 100k the UK is far higher, which means the UK market isn't a straight conversion based on total population.

 

4 hours ago, RJS1977 said:

This means that models sell in larger numbers, so their development costs can be spread over more units, keeping costs down. And as costs are lower, a modeller is more likely to buy more than one, increasing sales volumes further.

 

As noted above, US prices are generally higher than the US so that throws out that assumption.

 

Part of the problem is lack of uniformity in the prototype compared to the UK prototype (though the UK's current diversity in multiple units is presenting a similar problem).

 

4 hours ago, RJS1977 said:

Conversely, in the UK, the current model is for short production runs, which means development costs are spread over fewer units, pushing prices up, so fewer models sell, so the next production run is shorter, pushing the price up more....

 

Same thing in the US, but often worse - the US is very much a build to order market.

 

And there are a lot of things that are wanted but just don't seem to be viable to be made RTR in the US market.