Hornby 2022 Black 5 new tooling

[Steamport Southport]

14 hours ago, sjp23480 said:

Funny how a quick trawl of ebay reveals a number of Caprotti black five kits available.....

 

Any links?

 

As I can only see this one that is not far off the price that Comet sell them for.

 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/175113492558?hash=item28c593d84e:g:7QwAAOSwfeFh5FiH

 

And a built one for £325.

 

 

Jason

[Ian Hargrave]

Bristol Barrow Road ( At that time still under MR  as 22A ) had a few for services to New Street and beyond.

[pH]

I can’t get the caption for this to show, but the signal tower in the background defines the location:

 

https://cumbrianrailways.zenfolio.com/p328179906/h11f95c0b

 

It’s one of Holbeck’s allocation on a down train leaving Dumfries, though it looks like a single-chimney version. So they did make it into Scotland - this one would be going to Glasgow St. Enoch’s.

[sjp23480]

On 19/01/2022 at 13:14, Steamport Southport said:

 

Any links?

 

As I can only see this one that is not far off the price that Comet sell them for.

 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/175113492558?hash=item28c593d84e:g:7QwAAOSwfeFh5FiH

 

And a built one for £325.

 

 

Jason

Actually, just realised I was on the saleroom - where there are quite a few black five kits (Not Caprotti mind), but they are a devil to find: https://www.the-saleroom.com/en-gb/auction-catalogues/the-swan-at-tetsworth/catalogue-id-srsw10130/lot-af35beaa-62ef-4f20-8bcf-ae1400e45e88

[Steamport Southport]

I was hoping to find cheap Comet kits to be honest. I would give them a good home.  

 

Has happened in the past a few times when a model is announced and eBay gets flooded with unbuilt kits.

 

 

 

Jason

[sjp23480]

1 hour ago, Steamport Southport said:

I was hoping to find cheap Comet kits to be honest. I would give them a good home.  

 

Has happened in the past a few times when a model is announced and eBay gets flooded with unbuilt kits.

 

 

 

Jason

Hi Jason, 

 

Sorry - I haven't seen too many Comet kits, but yes it does happen.  I suspect more will appear as the Hornby version gets closer.  

 

Steve

[sjp23480]

There are also a couple of Crownline conversion kits for both low and high footplate Caprottis:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/203793265676?hash=item2f7306740c%3Ag%3Af2wAAOSwI3th5C-Q&LH_Auction=1

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/154796890447?hash=item240a9d194f%3Ag%3AnWIAAOSwvUVh4vYN&LH_Auction=1

[Fredo]

Hi, does anyone know in which year 44755 received a Late Crest and AWS. Thanks Fred 

[Jub45565]

On 30/01/2022 at 18:44, Fredo said:

Hi, does anyone know in which year 44755 received a Late Crest and AWS. Thanks Fred 

 

The Wild Swan LMS Locomotives Profiles book includes AWS dates for most of them, but 44755 is noted as 'fitted but date not known'. Those with dates are between March 59 and Feb 62.   44755 moved from Holbeck to Stockport in September 61 so whether there are photos with a Holbeck shed plate and AWS bang plate would help narrow it down.

[Downer]

All the Black 5s now down for Summer 2023 on the Hornby website. At least they’ve finally managed to find an appropriate photo for the Caprotti version. 

[E100]

On 28/04/2022 at 08:55, Downer said:

All the Black 5s now down for Summer 2023 on the Hornby website. At least they’ve finally managed to find an appropriate photo for the Caprotti version. 

 

And now down to Autumn 2023. I cannot believe that the length of delay has been caused by a recent lockdown.

[rjm]

11 hours ago, E100 said:

 

And now down to Autumn 2023. I cannot believe that the length of delay has been caused by a recent lockdown.

 

Recent Covid in China has and is causing serious disruption to all levels of production and delivery. It's not very clear in midia I've seen or read how bad this is.

[G-BOAF]

12 hours ago, E100 said:

 

And now down to Autumn 2023. I cannot believe that the length of delay has been caused by a recent lockdown.

But at least no one else will be announcing a Black 5 and be treading on Hornby's toes... they have marked their territory.... ;-p

 

There has been the recent lockdown in China and alsonwho knows what other refinement snd extra work to other productsnthat may be sharing the same factory (p2, 9f and 2mt to name but a few)

[E100]

It does make me think an Accurascale Black 5 is still very much viable. I dare say longer term it is too. With the annual price increases as well, they would probably undercut Hornby on price.

[Black 5 Bear]

26 minutes ago, E100 said:

It does make me think an Accurascale Black 5 is still very much viable. I dare say longer term it is too. With the annual price increases as well, they would probably undercut Hornby on price.

I wouldn't be surprised if we see something Stanier themed from Accurascale.

The 8F has got to be low hanging fruit for them.

[E100]

32 minutes ago, Black 5 Bear said:

I wouldn't be surprised if we see something Stanier themed from Accurascale.

The 8F has got to be low hanging fruit for them.

 

Well based on @Islesy 's pic at model rail scotland reading a book on the 8f's it's either very likely or it may have been too obvious!

 

I am starting to wonder if Hornby are now knowingly announcing things well in advance without a hope of producing them in the initially stated timeframe to head off competition, as this is far from the only thing that has disproportionally slipped.

[Dunsignalling]

Pricing is a danger area for Hornby, IMHO. By jacking theirs into the headroom allowed them by Bachmann, they are creating headroom beneath which must be very tempting for leaner newcomers who are almost certainly capable of equalling Hornby quality for twenty-or-so quid less (on large locos).

 

That said, I don't think anybody else will go for the Black Five right now. Quite simply, there are plenty of popular prototypes currently covered by both Hornby and Bachmann that are ripe for up-to-date models and for which retooled versions haven't been announced by the "incumbents".   

 

With the exception of the air-smoothed MNs, Hornby's Bulleid Pacifics are all around two decades old now, despite having been "retooled" to accommodate DCC sound. There are obvious features that could be improved, and gaps in the range that Hornby have produced, even from the current tooling. I'd also leap at a new T9 without traction tyres and with a chassis that doesn't self-destruct!

 

The 2P is just a no-brainer and I am flabbergasted that nobody has already made a move on it. 

 

Bachmann's BR standards are still holding up pretty well. The 76xxx, 80xxx, 82xxx and 9F represented high points when first introduced and the 75xxx has been retooled to a similar standard. However, most of that tooling is getting on a bit now. Hornby has, of course jumped on the 9F though there is an opening for a "de-Crostied" Crosti.

 

Bachmann's 57xx/8750 Panniers and the Collett 2251 0-6-0 and some of Hornby's older GWR models present tempting targets.

 

There's an even wider opening for a J39. Bachmann has actually announced they aren't interested in even making a new chassis for theirs, despite it having been a very good seller in its day. Serviceable examples of the old models are becoming scarce, and those that do still run are nowhere near current standards in any respect.

 

If anybody really wants to make an investment for the longer-term, though, forget locomotives. A broader and more sensible selection of properly-proportioned Gresley corridor coaches could bring in a steady income for years....

 

John

Edited May 13, 2022 by Dunsignalling

[Dunsignalling]

1 hour ago, E100 said:

 

I am starting to wonder if Hornby are now knowingly announcing things well in advance without a hope of producing them in the initially stated timeframe to head off competition, as this is far from the only thing that has disproportionally slipped.

I'm not sure that still has the deterrent effect it once would. 

 

As the "New Boys" get more established, they are demonstrating that they can potentially beat Hornby on quality, price and timescale or, if not all, any two out of the three. 

 

It'll only be a matter of time before one of them gains the confidence to try it, IMHO.

 

John 

[The Stationmaster]

47 minutes ago, Dunsignalling said:

I'm not sure that still has the deterrent effect it once would. 

 

As the "New Boys" get more established, they are demonstrating that they can potentially beat Hornby on quality, price and timescale or, if not all, any two out of the three. 

 

It'll only be a matter of time before one of them gains the confidence to try it, IMHO.

 

John 

Possibly so but really of course the new boys are all working in slightly different markets form Hornby so they hardly need to compete head-on.  But conversely if Hornby wish to retain a particular sector of their own markets they are directly competing with the newcomers - and have  gone in for some head-on attacks on various newcomers.

 

But, most importantly of all, don't necessarily assume that the 'new boys' are immune from the same problems that Hornby face in sourcing product from China.  the fact that they announce in a different way might well make it appear to be the case that they are immune - but they might not be.   In the area of announcements I have long maintained that for various reasons, Hornby is it's own worst enemy by sticking with its annual 'big bang' approach which lumps everything together.  Alas for them a new problem resulting from that approach has now emerged because it is exposing them to allegations of 'delaying new models' when matters are clearly beyond their control or responsibility. 

[jonnyuk]

i think most manufacturers suffer from delays, even the new comers. Difference is they get afforded far more slack than Hornby for example. Bachmann have changed their announcement strategy so they don't suffer from this really, looking at the AS 31/Manor announcements and how far they are down the development road, maybe they are changing too (although lets see if those two models hit the stated delivery dates).

Hornby do react to the market quickly sometimes, the consequence of this is other stuff slipping. They more than likely look at what can slide to the right based on how far that development is (far enough to ward off another competitor or a product in an area Hornby feel they have tied and again not subject to a competitor coming, like the LNER class 800 for example.

[TheSignalEngineer]

On 04/02/2022 at 13:41, Jub45565 said:

whether there are photos with a Holbeck shed plate and AWS bang plate would help narrow it down.

Not seen one so far. The dates I have seen are unfitted up to 27/7/1959 and fitted from 12/4/1962 so not a lot of help.

On 30/01/2022 at 18:44, Fredo said:

Hi, does anyone know in which year 44755 received a Late Crest and AWS. Thanks Fred 

As far as livery goes most of the pictures are no help as the loco spent most of its time in unlined grot.

[45568]

20 hours ago, Dunsignalling said:

 

 

That said, I don't think anybody else will go for the Black Five right now. Quite simply, there are plenty of popular prototypes currently covered by both Hornby and Bachmann that are ripe for up-to-date models and for which retooled versions haven't been announced by the "incumbents".   

 

I think another point of view here is to question whether people who have, say, four existing Hornby Black Fives, rush to replace them with all-new examples at 250+ pounds each?  I have multiple examples of post-2000 produced locomotives from Hornby and Bachmann, and they run well enough and are of a good level of detail for my purposes, especially with a little extra work.

I have ordered an Accurascale Manor to replace two old Bachmann examples, (which sold quickly on Oz Ebay), and I have ordered the Caprotti Five as it represents a totally different sub-class. However I will resist the other Hornby Black fives as I already have those sub-classes, and my Bachmann 9Fs are more than satisfactory. My existing Hornby 8Fs also do what they are supposed to and look the part.

I AM waiting for the 78xxx, the LNER A5 and G5, and other models NOT previously manufactured, which I personally still feel is the best way for any manufacturer to go.

Who would be a manufacturer!!?

Cheers from Oz,

Peter C.

[Dunsignalling]

1 hour ago, 45568 said:

 

I think another point of view here is to question whether people who have, say, four existing Hornby Black Fives, rush to replace them with all-new examples at 250+ pounds each?  I have multiple examples of post-2000 produced locomotives from Hornby and Bachmann, and they run well enough and are of a good level of detail for my purposes, especially with a little extra work.

I have ordered an Accurascale Manor to replace two old Bachmann examples, (which sold quickly on Oz Ebay), and I have ordered the Caprotti Five as it represents a totally different sub-class. However I will resist the other Hornby Black fives as I already have those sub-classes, and my Bachmann 9Fs are more than satisfactory. My existing Hornby 8Fs also do what they are supposed to and look the part.

I AM waiting for the 78xxx, the LNER A5 and G5, and other models NOT previously manufactured, which I personally still feel is the best way for any manufacturer to go.

Who would be a manufacturer!!?

Cheers from Oz,

Peter C.

Pretty much my position, with a Caprotti on order. I currently only have one of the older Black Fives, and might be open to persuasion, but only if I consider the new one represents a big enough improvement. Seeing the two versions next to one another will be the acid test. My locos primarily work for a living and I don't waste time inspecting them with a magnifying glass and comparing them to drawings. If they look right, they are right is my attitude.

 

My three Bachmann 9Fs are going nowhere, as I find them entirely satisfactory "layout locos" and have renumbered, detailed, and weathered them to my specific requirements. I could be tempted to add a Crosti one but only post-conversion to conventional operation, which hasn't yet been done.

 

I am having an Accurascale Manor, the Key Publishing one, as 7802 is a personal favourite in preservation. It will only be "run for fun under Rule One" or when visiting other layouts as it's out of area and "official" route availability for me. 

 

Previously unrepresented prototypes (if appropriate or sufficiently desirable) will always get priority for my cash, unless the older models are especially obsolescent (like previous Manors).

 

John

Edited May 14, 2022 by Dunsignalling

[No Decorum]

I agree absolutely. For example, Hornby’s O6 is rather horrible and I would like an improved version but I am much more enthusiastic about Heljan’s O2, which hasn’t been done before. Hornby’s older Black 5 was very poor but the current versions aren’t bad – I have the domeless, domed and forward domed versions; I’m in no hurry to get the new ones. A Caprotti perhaps but it won’t be available discounted. A new 9F? I’d go along with Dunsignalling – the existing models are good enough. In fact I’d go further and say that whist the Bachmann is better than the old Hornby, the Hornby isn’t totally disgraced trundling along in the company of the Bachmann and it was much cheaper. At least the gears are in the firebox, which is the sensible place for them.

 

It doesn’t do for any manufacturer to ignore what is going on at the moment. New models are coming out at a furious rate and prices are rising. As another example, I’d have a new Bachmann 47 just to enjoy and admire but when an 89 and 93 are in prospect (and even a Class 69), that’s where the limited funds will be going.

[mdvle]

On 13/05/2022 at 02:23, E100 said:

It does make me think an Accurascale Black 5 is still very much viable. I dare say longer term it is too. With the annual price increases as well, they would probably undercut Hornby on price.

 

The problem of course is that Hornby can up the priority of their Black 5 if a competitor appears making it a very risky move - and while they may not match Hornby's new prices Accurascale like everyone else will be facing the financial realities of the current inflation and massive oil prices.

 

10 hours ago, 45568 said:

I think another point of view here is to question whether people who have, say, four existing Hornby Black Fives, rush to replace them with all-new examples at 250+ pounds each?

 

While a consideration, there are new people entering the hobby all the time who don't have any existing Hornby Black Fives, or existing people in the hobby who change what they are modeling (and these applies to anything that gets a re-tool - as long as it is an improvement there will be buyers who have never owned a model of that prototype as well as a percentage of people who upgrade).