Ozexpatriate Posted November 30, 2012 Share Posted November 30, 2012 In trying to attract the buy the box and run a layout crowd the most important part of the jigsaw remains missing - the RTR loco. ... I still believe they have got this one all back-to-front. I presume the market research was done by someone, though don't think they asked enough current and potential modellers. I agree and I suspect the same thinking was behind the reference to locomotives in Andy's OP for this thread. It is hard to imagine RTR 009 without a locomotive being available. Nevertheless, the L&B is an outstanding choice and I think the wagons look terrific. I believe they will sell, though he market for RTR wagons and coaches will be much larger if and when a locomotive becomes availalble. It all makes me wonder if Peco were thinking about a strategy (perhaps with a partner) to introduce at least one RTR 009 locomotive and perhaps for whatever reason they are just not ready to announce it yet. I hope they do. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyingsignalman Posted December 1, 2012 Share Posted December 1, 2012 The difficulty in choosing a RTR loco to produce is that apart from Quarry Hunslets and Baldwin WD 4-6-0's there aren't many designs that were used on more than one railway or in more than one part of the UK. (I realise in saying "Quarry Hunslets" I am lumping more than one design together, a bit like saying class 25 diesels were all the same) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold PaulRhB Posted December 1, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted December 1, 2012 Peco chose the L&B because of it's iconic status and the fact that will draw in a lot of people who don't already model 009. The lack of loco is because they felt it isn't their area of expertise compared to others who can produce it quicker and easier as they wouldn't have so much learning to do, their existing N gauge 060 is a fairly simple model, Peco are trying to give the market a push by providing the train, if someone does a loco without stock then the same "it's no use without a rtr train too" would be said. Whatever the outcome these will be valuable models as there will be those short on time who these are a boon to as they now only have to worry about building the loco Would I have considered a small L&B mini layout without these being announced? definitely not but I am now thinking of something simple that could be put up and provide a bit of quick play value and store on top of a cupboard. Backwoods need to get a few kits ready to sell before someone announces a loco Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hobby Posted December 1, 2012 Share Posted December 1, 2012 It's also their "local" NG line as well... I can't see the back to front argument, there are small HOe and some (slightly large/nearer 00 scale!) HOe rtr locos already which would prove suitable for a freelance layout using Peco's stock and as pointed out by several of us loco building is not Peco's area of expertise not somewhere they want to go from the chats I and others had with them. I suspect they have done the market research (I don't think Peco are that stupid) and that they feel there will be a market for what they have launched. Although it's not my scene I do think they will do well enough and that may make a loco manufacturer take a longer look... I really don't understand the negativity, 009-ers (and I assume those commenting negatively on this thread are 009-ers, or at least know what the 009 the market is like!) have been crying out for British RTR, they now have it, sales will decide whether the punt by Peco will be worth it... They had to start somewhere and their choice looks suitable for a large portion of the market... Personally I wish them the best of luck! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold roundhouse Posted December 1, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted December 1, 2012 Kernow, and TMC etc., have all been to the well known manufacturers to have exclusive items produced so there is hope that one of these and even possibly Peco doing the same to get a loco produced. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BernardTPM Posted December 1, 2012 Share Posted December 1, 2012 The difficulty in choosing a RTR loco to produce is that apart from Quarry Hunslets and Baldwin WD 4-6-0's there aren't many designs that were used on more than one railway or in more than one part of the UK. If you look at 'industrial' designs (and quarry Hunslets are industrials) there were a number of 'standard' designs from a variety of manufacturers, such as Andrew Barclay, Bagnall, Kerr Stuart and Peckett, many of which were also used overseas (same applies to IC too - Listers, Simplex, Ruston, etc.), but each of the 'public' passenger carrying lines had its own types, though even here the Corris did buy a more or less off-the-peg KS 'Tattoo' class. If you go back to the first EggerBahn models they were industrial types, probably because they could be used more or less anywhere. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thos Posted December 2, 2012 Share Posted December 2, 2012 When did Peco stop producing 009 RTR locos? I had a small selection in the early 70s, consisting of a pannier with tipping wagons and coaches. All were RTR and I am sure they were Peco. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted December 2, 2012 Share Posted December 2, 2012 When did Peco stop producing 009 RTR locos? I had a small selection in the early 70s, consisting of a pannier with tipping wagons and coaches. All were RTR and I am sure they were Peco. Do you mean Roco? http://www.roco.com/...ocomotives.aspx Still available. (Edit to add) Actually, on this question of suitable 009 mechanisms, are you thinking what I'm thinking? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BernardTPM Posted December 2, 2012 Share Posted December 2, 2012 In the late 1960s Peco were the import agents for Minitrains; I'm not sure when that ceased to be the case. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
zigzag Posted December 3, 2012 Share Posted December 3, 2012 Whilst I welcome the announcement from Peco I too am in the 'why no loco camp'. Whenever I see 00-9 layouts at exhibitions I am fascinated by them and would love to model one, but the big stumbling block for me is the lack of availability of locos. Teh usual factors of time and other interests come into play when looking at kit building, I just havent got the time to invest hours kit building, I might just be able to cobble together a wagon or maybe a coach kit but to attempt a loco is out of the question. Add to this the fact that should I bodge it up then the cost of a wagon/coach is relatively small. a loco not so, and I would hazard that it is easier to bodge a loco than a wagon, and that reliable running is a higher prerequisite for a loco than a wagon. All these factors are stopping me going into 00-9. Add again that (from my limited knowledge) that chassis for kit build locos are hard to find, and being a beginner I might not get the right kit/chassis combination, and you may begin to see why the lack of locos has been a block on my move to 00-9. So from my point of view an rtr loco would have opened the 00-9 door for me, and from there I could (again time permitting) have moved to kit build as I gained experience and confidence in the scale. But glad though I am in seeing a manufacturer intoduce rolling stock they do not in isolation open the 00-9 door for me, more is the pity. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hobby Posted December 3, 2012 Share Posted December 3, 2012 There's plenty of help on NGRM (and here and other forums) about kit/chassis combinations if you need it and Parkside Dundas do a thorough list of kits and what chassis to use on their website... In addition Paul Windle produces 009 RTR, there are also suitably sized "HOe" (I use that designation loosely on some cases) locos and there are plenty of made up kits on the Society's secondhand stall... So what's stopping you?! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenton Posted December 3, 2012 Share Posted December 3, 2012 There's plenty of help on NGRM (and here and other forums) about kit/chassis combinations if you need it and Parkside Dundas do a thorough list of kits and what chassis to use on their website... As an OO9 modeller (of sorts) and a kit builder, that statement is not that useful. The vast majority of kits are body only leaving the "customer" to locate a matching chassis that is often near unobtainable (as indicated above Arnold and Farish 08/14) where they are obtainable you are either left with repairing a poor running / worn out example or trying to compete with the collectors in obtaining a MIB example - I have several such kits patiently waiting on an appropriate chassis. I am convinced that there are other "units" that can be cannabalised but there is no list of comparable substitute common chassis, and I understand why - as if this was public knowledge then the prices may well rocket. There are a few very good "complete" kits available some with novel and very good chassis but while it is easy (relatively) to build a body kit in 4mm the building of the corresponding chassis in 9mm (or its variants) is quite a different matter. Anyone who has built some of the fine chassis from Nigel Lawton will agree that they are not for the beginner. In theory it should not be that difficult to design simple frames, or for those with the complete workshop to machine your own, the supply of wheelsets and motor units is somewhat limited but they are available, but for the novice to get interested or even the enthusiastic this is an enormous and unattractive leap into the unknown. Whereas in OO and N one can always start with a boxed set and gradually add skills and items as one is motivated to develop. There is simply no equivalent in OO9 and those interested are expected to hit the ground with their legs running or to come to the scale/gauge with a history elsewhere. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold PaulRhB Posted December 3, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted December 3, 2012 the supply of wheelsets and motor units is somewhat limited but they are available, But is that any different to finding a chassis? Motors go out of production too and the suppliers like branchlines have many times had to include notes that the dimensions have slightly changed as a result. but for the novice to get interested or even the enthusiastic this is an enormous and unattractive leap into the unknown. Can't be that unattractive as several have made the leap successfully on here because of the enthusiasm making the technical challenge worth it Whereas in OO and N one can always start with a boxed set and gradually add skills and items as one is motivated to develop. There is simply no equivalent in OO9 and those interested are expected to hit the ground with their legs running or to come to the scale/gauge with a history elsewhere. Yes and the advantage is that it will bring in more novice modellers, divert a few standard gauge modellers to add an easy NG line onto their layout and consequently bring in more manufacturers to provide new models for all of us new and existing modellers. Then we can start fearing the day that they run out of protoypes and start producing the obscure one offs and duplicate what the small kit manufacturers have been making! Sound familiar for OO? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenton Posted December 3, 2012 Share Posted December 3, 2012 Can't be that unattractive as several have made the leap successfully on here because of the enthusiasm making the technical challenge worth it Sure some do - I did just the same but not for that reason. The leap is relatively easy if you have been building in N and 4mm for years and fancy something NG - but is a gigantic step for someone starting out. We have to remember that those who enjoy building kits are few and far between compared to the potential market of RTR and the cost of getting a OO9 loco built is usually higher than the equivalent 4mm/OO kit. I can't see the RTR loco market ever competing with the small supplier they will inevitably crowd around the same dreary lines like L&B, Ffestiniog, WHL probably leaving the industrial and esoteric to those who enjoy the challenge of adapting. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rope runner Posted December 3, 2012 Share Posted December 3, 2012 No locomotives? A huge cash opportunity missed by Peco. Let's hope sense prevails and they produce them before someone beats them to it Paul A. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karhedron Posted December 3, 2012 Share Posted December 3, 2012 I cannot help but feel Peco have been put off locos by the poor reception of the N gauge Collett. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Sheep Posted December 3, 2012 Share Posted December 3, 2012 would these be suitable for my random plan of a victorian pleasure park, using an N gauge steam loco modified to sit a 4mm figure in the tender towing 009 coaches? hmmm. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Steven B Posted December 3, 2012 RMweb Premium Share Posted December 3, 2012 The vast majority of kits are body only leaving the "customer" to locate a matching chassis that is often near unobtainable (as indicated above Arnold and Farish 08/14) where they are obtainable you are either left with repairing a poor running / worn out example or trying to compete with the collectors in obtaining a MIB example There are plenty of Farish 08 and 14's available in the shops. Realistically a RTR OO9 model is going to cost the same as a N or OO gauge model. Why is it seen as such a draw back to buy a new RTR N Gauge model and place a kit-built body on it? (selling on the N Gauge body to cover some of the cost). OO and N gauge modellers often buy RTR chassis as donors for kits. Why are OO9 modellers apparently so against doing the same? Happy modelling. Steven B Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bomag Posted December 3, 2012 Share Posted December 3, 2012 There are plenty of Farish 08 and 14's available in the shops. Realistically a RTR OO9 model is going to cost the same as a N or OO gauge model. Why is it seen as such a draw back to buy a new RTR N Gauge model and place a kit-built body on it? (selling on the N Gauge body to cover some of the cost). OO and N gauge modellers often buy RTR chassis as donors for kits. Why are OO9 modellers apparently so against doing the same? Happy modelling. Steven B I think that most kits need the old type 08 Chassis which has been discontinued for some time. It may surprise you but some people want to model a railway rather than a collection of vehicles. They either cannot or are unwilling to construct kit built locos to the quality they want or accept, not a problem with N and OO where there is wide enough range of RTR of the standard they want. Some also get irritated with the assumption by some is the are not proper modellers. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold colin penfold Posted December 3, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted December 3, 2012 I can't help thinking that even a three year old asked to come up with a new range of ready to run trains would include a locomotive in his/her list. Sorry PECO, that's just plain dumb. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BernardTPM Posted December 3, 2012 Share Posted December 3, 2012 Many of the kits that used the old 08 chassis would actually benefit from having the outside frames of the new one. For the few that don't it should be remembered that the J94 shared the same chassis as the 08. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold roundhouse Posted December 3, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted December 3, 2012 I think that most kits need the old type 08 Chassis which has been discontinued for some time. It may surprise you but some people want to model a railway rather than a collection of vehicles. They either cannot or are unwilling to construct kit built locos to the quality they want or accept, not a problem with N and OO where there is wide enough range of RTR of the standard they want. Some also get irritated with the assumption by some is the are not proper modellers. There are an awful lot of 009 loco kits that now rely on the very hard to obtain chassis such as old Farish chassis, Minitrix and Ibertren ones. I am glad that our small group collected most of our 009 locos some years ago but I do have one or two that could do with replacement chassis. despite the views that it s not serious modelling, we have had great fun with it over the years and parts of the Bourne Valley Railway still do shows although no where near as many as it used to. The L & B wagons are fairly good prototypes to run on a generic 009 layout and despite all mine being painted in SR livery, some of our group have used the kits for nondescript liveries - the 4 wheelers are a nice size. With the planned L & B coaches I will end up building one of the locations on the L & B one day, Ian Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium cornelius Posted December 3, 2012 RMweb Premium Share Posted December 3, 2012 This is still an untested market for UK outline RTR models. The cost of tooling for rolling stock is many times less than for a loco, and this is a punt into the unknown and a risk. I think Peco know exactly what they're doing. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Posted December 3, 2012 Share Posted December 3, 2012 I can't help thinking that even a three year old asked to come up with a new range of ready to run trains would include a locomotive in his/her list. Sorry PECO, that's just plain dumb. Peco's N gauge range is mostly wagon based with only a couple of locos since its introduction and that's done pretty well. I suspect the range will have had existing modellers in mind initially. L&B wagons have a nice classic common carrier appearance which will no doubt add to their appeal too. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grasslands Posted December 3, 2012 Share Posted December 3, 2012 So are these RTR wagons and coaches entirely new mouldings for Peco? I also thought they looked like they had plastic wheels when i briefly glanced over them at Warley, anybody know any better? Tom Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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