Converting to EM and Handbuilt Track

[Michael Woolford]

Hi all,

 

I have a layout build in progress, which is at the track laying stage. The station throat is laid and I was about to start the next stage which is marking out the position of platforms ready for the track and then the rest  of the trackwork can be laid. The track I have is all Peco code 100 and electrofrog points and over winter I have stopped work on the layout due to the fact that the layout is in a garage and it gets awfully cold and damp (at present everything is dismantled and covered to protect it). I was planning on returning to the layout when it gets a bit warmer and doing the work described above. While I have been away from the layout (about two months!), I have been using my spare time to do as much research as possible and I have been looking into handbuilt track and the advantages of converting to EM gauge for my next layout.

 

The main reason for wanting to go down this route is because I have seen many layouts where the trackwork looks absolutely fantastic and makes RTR track look horrible when you put them side by side. Also, the detailing and smooth running that can be achieved seem to far outweigh any benefits RTR track has. As for converting to EM gauge, I feel that it is much more realistic than the rather underscale 00 that I am currently using. 

 

The main concern at present is weather or not I continue using Peco and no doubt be disappointed with the results knowing what I could have achieved, or, rip up what I have done, and start again which will also reduce the amount of 00 to EM converting that will have to be done.

 

I would be interested to know what people think about my plan and especially what experiences people have had using EM and building their own track.

[Mrkirtley800]

Hello Michael, I have been modelling in EM gauge since 1959 and never regretted the change fron 00.  My first attempt at building track and pointwork was a disaster and it took me a few goes to get it all right, but we got there in the end.  I found EM modelling  extremely satisfying especially after a hard day at work when things were going hay wire.  My advice would be to join the EM Gauge Society, they are a great bunch of folks and very helpful and for £15 a year you get four newsletters and access to the well stocked stores.

Derek

[Jeff Smith]

If making the break from 00 why not go all the way to P4. Aspects of EM may still leave you disatisfied such as oversize wheel flanges and check-rail and closure rail gaps. I built my P4 layout in the mid eighties when everything had to be hand built with C&L components, nowadays flexitrack and point kits make it much easier and no more difficuly than EM.

[BG John]

I was about 16 when I changed from 00 to EM, although it took me a while to make much progress. I considered P4, but it had only just been invented, and there was only one supplier. With what's available now, I think I would have gone P4. The only reason my new layout will be EM is that I have plenty of locos and stock. I've built broad and mixed gauge points to P4 standards.

[Coombe Barton]

I model in P4

 

But let's look at your options.

• You could try Code 75 rail and stick to OO - but then the gauge may look 'wrong'
• You could go to EM and then the gauge would look better but the wheels would still look wide
• You could go to P4 and then the gauge would look right and so would the wheels.

But as you go down this list above:

• RTR straight from the box virtually disappears
• The precision increases and the tolerances decrease. (but it doesn't become more difficult if you're careful)
• The track radii, and hence the space required, increase.
• Costs also increase because you have to buy different wheels - unless you're kit or scratch building
• It'll take more time. Quite a lot more.

But, looking at the reasons I'm where I am.

• I wanted primarily to build.
• I'm having fun in my way.
• I have the satisfaction that I've done it.

But you're in the garage:

• Hang on, but you're not, it's too cold.
• In the summer it may get too hot
• And you're in a place apart from the family.

And talking of families

• SWMBO and I work and live in the lounge. We're together.
• My workbench is behind my desk
• There's no carpet (took it up because of hers and son's asthma) so the carpet monsters don't get to grab little bits.

You probably don't want to live in the chaos that we do, though.

 

So:

• There's more options than increasing the gauge
• But if you do increase the gauge look at what you want out of it.
• And it's your train set.

[EDIT} and ExpoEM's in Bracknell in May http://www.emgs.org/6.html?category=2

[philsandy]

I'm currently building a new layout after over 30 years since I last did any railway modelling.

I decided to go EM for the very same reasons you specified, but did not want to build any trackwork, not at this stage anyway, as I considered that converting steam locos to EM was going to be enough work in itself.

I bought all new flexitrack (SMP) and ready made pointwork from Marcway in Sheffield, and it looks really good.

[hayfield]

Michael

 

Building track is quite easy once you have had a go, providing you have a set of track gauges and follow a simple build process its quite easy. I would start with a couple of copperclad turnouts first just to get some practice in as they are far more forgiving than plastic sleeper and chair and can be used in fiddle yards if you dont want them on show.

 

Plastic sleepers bond to plastic chairs better than to ply sleepers, having said that they do bond to ply sleepers very well and can be lifted quite easy if adjustments have to be made. I think the easier route will be EM gauge as its a bit more forgiving and I think Gibson wheels look a bit finer than Markits / Romfords.

 

Good luck

[Michael Woolford]

Thanks for the replies, I am going to send my application form for the EMGS off today. I am also hopefully going to the Watford finescale show this month so hopefully I can talk to some people there who may be able to give me some further advice and actually being able to see the real thing is always better than looking at product images on somewhere such as C&L's website. Knowing me I will no doubt be convinced to buy some bits and bobs while I am there, which I can then take home and experiment on before I commit to buying any substantial amount of items.

[Gordon A]

By going EM or P4 you are committing yourself to hand built point work which should look and work miles better than RTR and give you nice flowing point and crossing work - unless you are modelling cramped industrial track.

Gordon A

Bristol

[leopardml2341]

......... I was planning on returning to the layout when it gets a bit warmer and doing the work described above. While I have been away from the layout (about two months!), I have been using my spare time to do as much research as possible and I have been looking into handbuilt track and the advantages of converting to EM gauge for my next layout.

 

Just a suggestion Michael,

 

Because of what you say above {sic} why not use the 'too cold and damp time' to have ago abuilding some turnouts etc in either OO or EM, that way you'll find out whether you can do it, wanto do it or whether you judge the effort to be worth the improvement.

 

Have a look at The Laird's Bradfield thread elsewhere on RMWeb to see what you can get OO trackwork to look like.

 

For my part I built my first set of points when I was 14 - very much coarse scale OO, in fact I used brass rubbings of exisiting points as templates. Some came out better than others but since my pocket money wouldn't stretch to buying points it was the only way I could do it.

 

Local (ish) Model Club also provided lots of encouragement.

 

I'd say give it a go, just don't set your sights too high at first.

 

Andy

 

Editted for carp spelling.

[t-b-g]

I have worked very happily in EM gauge for around 35 years now and wouldn't swap to anything else. Even if I was starting again I wouldn't go P4 as I like to get things up and running quickly. I know some superb modellers working in P4 but none of them would say that it is the quick and easy option.

 

I have done a little modelling in P4 and a good deal in OO (both for other people) but haven't experienced anything that would want to make me change what I do for myself.

 

Welcome to the EMGS and I hope you let us know how you get on. We are a friendly bunch if you get stuck and need help (or even if you don't!).

 

Tony

[Mrkirtley800]

Hello again, Michael, if you are within reasonably easy reach of Bracknell, why not go along to the EM Gauge Society show on the 18/19 May.  There you will see both EM and P4 layouts on display as well as being able to chat to members of the society.  When the show was held in Milton Keynes it was a must visit for me.  I could do the round trip from my home on  the North Yorkshire coast  and back in a day and still have four or five hours at the show.  Now that it has, sadly, moved to Bracknell it is too far for me to go.

Derek

[Michael Woolford]

Derek, I will have to have a look, definitely a consideration. However, as I mentioned in my previous post, I am planning on going to Watford this month and I feel that will be my best bet to start with. Not forgetting that I may be able to pick up some goodies (maybe even some bargains!)

[Steve Hewitt]

Thanks for the replies, I am going to send my application form for the EMGS off today. I am also hopefully going to the Watford finescale show this month so hopefully I can talk to some people there who may be able to give me some further advice and actually being able to see the real thing is always better than looking at product images on somewhere such as C&L's website. Knowing me I will no doubt be convinced to buy some bits and bobs while I am there, which I can then take home and experiment on before I commit to buying any substantial amount of items.

Michael,

 

We're taking Liverpool Lime Street to Watford, so come along and chat with John Holden, the owner.

He's been working in EM for years and I'm sure will give you lots of good advice and the names of people who can help.

 

Steve.

[Ian_H]

Hello,

 

I hope you don't mind me asking a question but looking through the thread makes interesting reading and of course EM track work does look much better than OO (or should that be 00?)! Whereas I've been looking at building my own track work to OO-SF standard (I understand some people refer to it as EM -2mm) it is still narrow. I would love to build to EM gauge but what puts me off is the difficulties in modifying RTR models to run on EM gauge track, perhaps the difficulties are not as great as I image! So to the question is it easy, by that I mean within the scope of a novice, to modify say a current Bachmann or Hornby pacific steam engine? Perhaps somebody could point me in the direction of an article on how to do it?

 

Thanks

Ian

[marc smith]

Hi there,
I model in both oo and EM (don't ask! it just happened that way......)
and 2mm and 7mm scales too!

One thing that strikes me, is that you don't mention oo handbuilt track...
so you aren't really comparing like-for-like, so to speak...

Handbuilt OO track can look heaps better, and you don't need to convert all your stock
- unless you have stock with older, more coarse wheelsets...

EM is certainly an option, and it does look better
P4 looks better still, and as others have said, it isn't a simple option

It can take time to get hold of some wheelsets - ultrascale being one example

Others have mentioned P4 flanges looking finer,
but many wheels in RTR items look pretty fine these days
I find that some stock can simply be re-gauged, with an EM back to back gauge....
The flanges being fine enough, and looking pretty good to me

Sorry that's more +'s and -'s
but these are just some of my own thoughts and findings......

Good luck

Marc
 

[marc smith]

Also wanted to say (but the "edit" tab wasn't working)
you are using code 100 rail - so that would look more coarse,
whatever the gauge......

[Mallard60022]

EM is OK if you are a steam era modeller & you don't mind spending a lot of time converting RTR steam loco's or replacing the chassis and valve gear etc. You can get plenty of advice so don't be put off. However, if you are a diesel man, go EM no problems; converting those is generally a doddle. Most RTR rolling-stock is also easily converted to EM.

The track building need only really be for point-work and that is hugely satisfying.

Having said all this, if you do not have the time or think you do not yet have the skills  to convert stock and build track, go the 'Shackleton route' and use 'finescale' Code 75 OO track and Code 75 ready made point-work. With canny laying, ballasting, point modification and weathering and keeping things simple*, I can honestly say that the 'narrow gauge' is hardly noticeable and you can get that RTR loco' out of it's box and run it straight away. A great example of this finescale OO look is the layout Albion yard.

So you then have a very good looking layout and whilst you spend many happy hours playing with that you can if you wish also practise the EM point building and maybe the converting of a second hand loco or two. If you have planned ahead, at some time in the future you could replace the OO track and lay your EM or P4 stuff (probably not if your layout is a huge roundy, roundy - see above comment*). Alternatively, build something new and sell on your OO set up.

Good luck,

P @ 36E

P.S My only layout at the moment is EM and is almost exclusively diesel DCC, but I lust after something like Peterborough North or Seaton Junction.

[Flymo748]

Thanks for the replies, I am going to send my application form for the EMGS off today. I am also hopefully going to the Watford finescale show this month so hopefully I can talk to some people there who may be able to give me some further advice and actually being able to see the real thing is always better than looking at product images on somewhere such as C&L's website. Knowing me I will no doubt be convinced to buy some bits and bobs while I am there, which I can then take home and experiment on before I commit to buying any substantial amount of items.

 

I've just had a look on the Watford club's website and unfortunately the EMGS does not seem to be attending.

 

Despite not being on the website, the Scalefour Society will be there, at Stand 25.  Do feel free to drop by and say hello.  We'd be happy to have a long natter about trackbuilding techniques, and other aspects of finescale modelling.  I'll be there on the Saturday, and will definitely have with me track gauges and other bits of kit.

 

Many of the ways that P4 modellers work are the same as for EM.  Indeed, my own Scalefour Society Area Group contains EM gauge modellers, and one of them has just won our annual modelling challenge!  I think that you should be able to see that at http://www.scalefour.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=74&t=2416

 

Cheers

Flymo

[fender]

I'm at a similar stage to you and have decided to go for P4.

 

I don't have much space now so I won't be able to have a large layout or lots of rolling stock. the time-to-convert and time-to-build-track problems are therefore much solved, and if I do ever have a lot of space for a large layout, that will be in the distant future, which equals lots of time to buy, build and convert things. I was dead-set on EM until I considered I would always have this bug eating at me wondering if I should have gone straight to P4.

 

so I've bought a point and a wagon conversion kit, and I'll see how that goes.

[Michael Woolford]

I have been away for a while due to some family troubles, but hopefully that is all sorted now. Unfortunately, I could not go to the Watford finescale show because of this (I will have to find another show to attend). I have decided that EM is the way I want go however, the concern I have is that I am either going to need to design my layout on templot (of which I have no experience with) or manually mark out in pencil on the boards where the trackwork is to go. This of course takes time and will set me back even further but in the meantime I have lots of soldering to keep me busy as I am preparing various circuitry to be installed on the layout.

[BG John]

Give Templot a go. It's much nicer when you can create nice flowing curves easily. I haven't got my head round all of it yet, and there are some bits of my track plan that don't line up properly yet, but it's still far better than the alternative.

[Siberian Snooper]

Give Templot a go. It's much nicer when you can create nice flowing curves easily. I haven't got my head round all of it yet, and there are some bits of my track plan that don't line up properly yet, but it's still far better than the alternative.

 

 

I've been using Templot for a number of years now, but it took quite a while to get my head round it. If you follow the video tutorials and work through them (they are slightly out of date as they were done for earlier versions). Don't try to run before you can walk, trying to produce Clapham or Crewe before you can put a turnout into a bit plain track first will not help you at all. Do persevere, it's almost a hobby in it's own right once you get going.

 

HTH

 

SS

[marc smith]

I'm at a similar stage to you and have decided to go for P4.

 

I don't have much space now so I won't be able to have a large layout or lots of rolling stock. the time-to-convert and time-to-build-track problems are therefore much solved, and if I do ever have a lot of space for a large layout, that will be in the distant future, which equals lots of time to buy, build and convert things. I was dead-set on EM until I considered I would always have this bug eating at me wondering if I should have gone straight to P4.

 

so I've bought a point and a wagon conversion kit, and I'll see how that goes.

 

Hi fender,

 

If you don't have much space, try building a small / micro type layout

It's a good idea anyway, but especially if you haven't worked in a particular scale or gauge before....

 

A few months back (maybe 5 or 6?) there was a tiny layout in MRJ called "Croft Depot"

It wasn't a depot in the railway servicing/ loco shed sense, but a coal depot

It's a classic inglenook design, and was built to P4 standards... In under 4 feet by about 12 inches deep....

 

It's an absolute cracker, and I heartily reccommend a read for someone at your stage of modelling, with little space etc

It consists of just 2 points, and it might be a bit of a challenge, but you could substitute these for a 3 way....

Anyhow, take a look, and good luck with your modelling

 

Marc

[Michael Woolford]

I have finally managed to get my track plan finished as some of you may have seen in another topic. Having completed it I now know what type of turnouts I will need, I do not however, know what size to use as the track plan is in a 'mimic panel' format (I have not actually created a full size plan). My intention was to use various templates of standard sizes for the turnouts I require, lay them out on the baseboards and add in the plain track with pencil.

 

I feel that this is the best approach for me as I do not get much time to model, and spending hours and hours learning how to use Templot and even more time actually constructing a full scale plan really is not ideal, (especially when you have lots of college work to do!). I would rather devote the little time I do have to laying it all out with printed templates and then getting some templates of the appropriate turnouts that I can then use to construct the turnouts on.

 

One thing that is bothering me is that I am using two single slips and one double, do I have to have a point motor connected to each set of switch tips e.g. two for a single slip and four for a double, or is one end of the slip switched with one and the other end another? Could anyone recommend a size turnout to be the minimum, so they are not too short? One other question I have is do I need to use either A or B type switches (or indeed any other) and what is the difference/reasons for using these different types.

 

In terms of turnout construction, I am thinking of going down the route of using ply sleepers and plastic chairs. The reason for this being that I feel that ply sleepers look better than copperclad/pcb and that the ply and rivet method is a bit outdated and could be more work than I need to do. I do appreciate that others may not share the same opinion as we all have our preferred methods (as with most things); and unless absolutely necessary I like to do as little soldering as I can as it saves me from burning my fingers, (I'm very clumsy!). 

 

Sorry if it seems like I am asking too much at once, but I am very keen to make progress and actually start making something; after all, its one of the reasons we make models in the first place! Attached below is a copy of my track plan for anyone that is interested. Thanks.

 

Control Panel Diagram.pdf

 

Michael