RMweb Premium Steve Purves Posted August 14, 2014 RMweb Premium Share Posted August 14, 2014 Courtesy of Micheal Shillabeer of the NGS, over on the N gauge forum The N Gauge Society ran an online survey re. a Pendolino in 2003.The results are still available at https://web.archive.org/web/20030617031758/http://ngaugesociety.com/survey/surveyresults.htmRemember the prices are from 11 years ago! So 11 years ago there were 196 people interested (via the NGS) in a Pendolino (regardless of set length) and the price then (factoring in inflation) would equate to £161 now for a 5 car set. Sounds good, although that is only 1/5 of the number required (maybe 2/5 if counting multiple purchases) add maybe another 1/5 for the rise in N gauge modern modellers due to the availablility of better quality models brings us to the 3/5 area... Still need to find homes for another 400 x nine car units.... Sounds almost possible. And to all those who dont agree with the model choice, if this is successful this could lead to others... Imagine a 5-WES, or a 323/325 RTR... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karhedron Posted August 14, 2014 Share Posted August 14, 2014 And to all those who dont agree with the model choice, if this is successful this could lead to others... Imagine a 5-WES, or a 323/325 RTR... To be honest, I am pro-variety and would never argue against a new model. I model the GWR so a WCML electric is not exactly the sort of thing I would normally run. However, it is an iconic train at a great price (assuming it goes ahead). Also there are many who feel it is the key missing ingredient that is holding back the development of OHEL modelling since it is really needed to run alongside things like the Desiro, class 90 etc. I am not entirely convinced by that argument but I support the project on the basis that electrics are somewhat under-represented and anything that gives a whole new sector one of their principle express trains seems like a project worth supporting to me. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
acko22 Posted August 14, 2014 Share Posted August 14, 2014 Sadly the one issue is the lack of variation that you could get on this model against say the class 66 which can be used on any modern image layout. Just flirting with a thought here but as I have very little modeling experience but instead of going through the issues that are holding things back would it not be worth using the whole 3D printing concept. There are people on here willing work with the idea then it could be done between skilled individuals on here to create and co-operate in the builds. As the Designs have already been flirted with I believe by BMTH (sorry cant remember his full name) then they are out there and may need a small amount of altering and with the knowledge base I am sure others would be able to build the other components it's just a question of if / when they may be willing or able to! This could be a way of getting the models available and if not on a huge production a decent size so the likes of a 325 could come to fruit, just have to be realistic with the varieties of classes and sizes, as well people could get carried away, I know I would! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Revolution Mike Posted August 14, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted August 14, 2014 Sadly the one issue is the lack of variation that you could get on this model against say the class 66 which can be used on any modern image layout. Just flirting with a thought here but as I have very little modeling experience but instead of going through the issues that are holding things back would it not be worth using the whole 3D printing concept. There are people on here willing work with the idea then it could be done between skilled individuals on here to create and co-operate in the builds. As the Designs have already been flirted with I believe by BMTH (sorry cant remember his full name) then they are out there and may need a small amount of altering and with the knowledge base I am sure others would be able to build the other components it's just a question of if / when they may be willing or able to! This could be a way of getting the models available and if not on a huge production a decent size so the likes of a 325 could come to fruit, just have to be realistic with the varieties of classes and sizes, as well people could get carried away, I know I would! I actually think the relative lack of variation (though if the Arriva(?) Pendolinos come to fruition that will change) actually helps for this sort of project. Instead of having a relatively few purchases split across liveries you have anyone who wants one directed to one unit and stand more chance of reaching your funding goal. The point is at the moment to try and work out whether it is feasible to run a crowd funding campaign for a RTR Pendolino. If that doesn't work out then it might be worth looking at how we can refine the work David did on his 3D printed version. As an aside N Train / Electra Railway Graphics do a kit for a 325. Cheers, Mike Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
acko22 Posted August 14, 2014 Share Posted August 14, 2014 Hi Mike, I understand the point and I am all for it, I am just thinking if we were unable to raise the numbers for a full RTR model to be mass produced (in the range of 1000 units), would it not be worth looking at using some of the guys on the forum who specialize in areas of modeling for N gauge to do the same crowd funding and them produce the models between them. this would also help them boost their business and portfolio and maybe be a starting point for co-operation to produce more varied models well either that or a boot up the ass of the large manufacturers, not everyone just wants class 66s for modern layouts! While I appreciate this would be more complicated a process and likely incur some more expense it is another option in which crowd funding may be able to produce enough money and get the model people want. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpendle Posted August 14, 2014 Share Posted August 14, 2014 Remember the point of this thread and the poll is just to gauge how much interest the really is. If we get 500 votes then we have the problem/opportunity of setting up a Kickstarter campaign and handling the money and paying Dave. (I say 500 because many of us want more than one model and there are modellers who might not read RMWeb). If we don't get that many votes then at least we have an idea of the potential sales and as Mike has said we could then ask David to revisit his 3D print version. John P Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold ian Posted August 14, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted August 14, 2014 If we don't get that many votes then at least we have an idea of the potential sales and as Mike has said we could then ask David to revisit his 3D print version. I have a feeling that for a full 9 car set you'd find it cheaper to go for 2 of the Kickstarter rtr sets than one 3D set plus all the ancilliary parts. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
frobisher Posted August 14, 2014 Share Posted August 14, 2014 I think we need to keep this simple. If we start diluting the message with follow-on options for key vehicles then it may start to get confusing and messy. After all, £250 for a nine-car set is great value, and as I mentioned above if 9 cars is too much it should be simple to offload some. To a certain extent I agree, but Kickstarter is a strange beast. Supporting pledges are a vital thing for many campaigns. You need to find ways for people to give you money to fund the project - remember these people don't part with their cash until the project is full funded (via pledges) and the campaign ends. If all that is being supplied are 9 car packs, the market for offloading unwanted extras is somewhat diminished... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
frobisher Posted August 14, 2014 Share Posted August 14, 2014 I really do think that splitting the trains up into packs of 4 or 5 is making things unnecessarily complex. How so? The aim is 9 coaches; That's the 4 car cheap-@r$e plus the 5 car add on pack. From a manufacturing standpoint, that's exactly two SKUs you need to produce to cover all options up to 9 cars. If there aren't shorter sets in the mix, no one is really going to be trading carriages with each other... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bomag Posted August 14, 2014 Share Posted August 14, 2014 How so? The aim is 9 coaches; That's the 4 car cheap-@r$e plus the 5 car add on pack. From a manufacturing standpoint, that's exactly two SKUs you need to produce to cover all options up to 9 cars. If there aren't shorter sets in the mix, no one is really going to be trading carriages with each other... Except for those that want to have a 11 car set Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
frobisher Posted August 14, 2014 Share Posted August 14, 2014 Except for those that want to have a 11 car set Can't see that generating the numbers needed to cover any substantial number of people trying to recoup their investment by downsizing though. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Revolution Ben Posted August 14, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted August 14, 2014 Hello there, My concern is that splitting the product into packs of four and five cars will add costs by increasing the packaging and generating complications to shipping, distribution and supply. This in turn could put people off, along with the concern that the threshold for both packs won't be reached. Certainly if I am going to commit, I want to be confident that I will get the full set. And, as has already been stated, I think there will probably be sales to those who wish to turn their 9-car into 11-cars. cheers Ben A. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Revolution Mike Posted August 15, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted August 15, 2014 Hi Ben The way that Kickstarter works would mean you would fund the whole production run or nothing at all so it makes no difference (to Kickstarter) if someone pledges for one coach, a 4 car set, a 5 car set, 9 car set or 11 car set or even a smaller amount to support the project - the pledges all go towards hitting your overall target. Cheers, Mike Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThaneofFife Posted August 15, 2014 Share Posted August 15, 2014 im not convinced this wont turn out to be a moment of bluster. 2700 views of this 4 page thread. an estimated 200 pledges from rmweb and a poll vote that shows of those that have read the thread only 62% are actually interested in parting with money. hopes that pledges might already be at 3/5 seem optimistic to say the least. polls from other sources might be more revealing especially if the mean interest remains at around 62% assuming that 62% isnt in itself representing over 1000 pledges of course. theres always going to be a hardcore of interested party people in every model conceivable yet right here right now i dont see the Pendo as a goer. its got more chance of materialising from a big player as a shot in the dark gap filler than a kickstarter. so far the signs arent so encouraging. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DJM Dave Posted August 15, 2014 Author Share Posted August 15, 2014 im not convinced this wont turn out to be a moment of bluster. 2700 views of this 4 page thread. an estimated 200 pledges from rmweb and a poll vote that shows of those that have read the thread only 62% are actually interested in parting with money. hopes that pledges might already be at 3/5 seem optimistic to say the least. polls from other sources might be more revealing especially if the mean interest remains at around 62% assuming that 62% isnt in itself representing over 1000 pledges of course. theres always going to be a hardcore of interested party people in every model conceivable yet right here right now i dont see the Pendo as a goer. its got more chance of materialising from a big player as a shot in the dark gap filler than a kickstarter. so far the signs arent so encouraging. Not sure about those figures mate, only 40 members saying yes so far! The 'no' vote is roughly 50% of the yes vote However, to be fair, it has only been a couple of days. I'd give it longer for those that don't visit here often to see it, and for news to leak out to non members etc. I think with the correct advertising etc it will certainly grow, but who knows how far? Cheers Dave Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium njee20 Posted August 15, 2014 RMweb Premium Share Posted August 15, 2014 However, to be fair, it has only been a couple of days. I'd give it longer for those that don't visit here often to see it, and for news to leak out to non members etc. That's the key element isn't it, what proportion of modellers are on here/other forums? How many others read the press, and how many would just buy something because they saw it in their local model shop? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
aghodgett Posted August 15, 2014 Share Posted August 15, 2014 My vote doesn't seem to be working! It was 42 before I voted and it's 42 after? I now get an option to delete my vote. Even logging out doesn't make it go to 43? what am i doing wrong? Arthur Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Revolution Ben Posted August 15, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted August 15, 2014 Hello Thane, I'm not convinced either, but I think for the time being it's worth pursuing. To be fair, the votes cast so far have come after just a couple of days of chitter chatter and with fairly vague details about actual goals, targets, timescales etc, so I don't think they're much of an indicator. If the project does turn into a Kickstarter project there will be more clarity about exactly what is proposed. During the 60 days available to reach the target, there can be a clear and targeted drive to generate interest elsewhere with editorial copy in magazines, word of mouth, the NGS journal and elsewhere on the web. I am pretty sure there are more n gaugers in the N Gauge Forum and Yahoo Group than here on RMWeb. That is the time when it will become clear if this project can proceed. Cheers Ben A. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roy L S Posted August 15, 2014 Share Posted August 15, 2014 Arthur If you click "view" you will see that your vote has been counted. I suspect it is possible somebody else removed their vote at around the same time too. Regards Roy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium njee20 Posted August 15, 2014 RMweb Premium Share Posted August 15, 2014 I said it on the NGF too, but this forum is utterly hideous to negotiate, with so many sub-forums, so I suspect we're not even reaching everyone on here who may be interested. As you say Ben, a more holistic campaign to promote a Kickstarter bid would reach a lot more people. Once again though, that involves more effort and time, and may be jumping the gun somewhat. My vote doesn't seem to be working! It was 42 before I voted and it's 42 after? I now get an option to delete my vote. Even logging out doesn't make it go to 43? what am i doing wrong? Perhaps someone deleted their vote whilst you submitted yours? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roy L S Posted August 15, 2014 Share Posted August 15, 2014 Chicken and egg situation. If nobody invests the time and effort to reach the various media surely the proposal will fail to find sufficient support to even think about starting a Crowd Funding project? It depends how much people genuinely do want this model and who/how many are genuinely prepared to take on responsibility for doing something in a co-ordinated way. One thing is for sure, the model will not happen on it's own! Regards Roy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Revolution Mike Posted August 15, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted August 15, 2014 Like others I'm not sure if the project is a goer at the moment or not, but I don't think we are in any position to judge that now! Given the NGS got 196 people interested in a Pendolino sometime back we are clearly only seeing a fraction of the potential market reach this thread. I'm actually quite encouraged that of the people who've voted 2/3 are interested, though I absolutely accept that this is a very self-selecting audience! My personal feeling is that the first step is to do a bit of publicity work about the idea and ask people to either express interest via this poll or provide an alternative eg email or offline method for expressions of interest. I think that we have to be careful not to get duplicate expressions of interest across different sources. If there were several hundred expressions of interest in this approach then it might be worth fleshing out all the details, doing more publicity work and launching a Kickstarter campaign. Cheers, Mike Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Martin Posted August 15, 2014 Share Posted August 15, 2014 I would totally disregard the number of "no" votes. No disrespect to those people, but their votes could mean anything from "I'd definitely buy an n-gauge pendolino but I'm not going to stump up for one in advance" to "I model Welsh narrow gauge in 7mm scale, so this isn't for me".I don't think there's any useful inference to be drawn from a raw total. Jim Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
alibuchan Posted August 15, 2014 Share Posted August 15, 2014 It may be worth trying to collate all of the data through one place because at the moment we have polls going on in at least 2 places and various posts on social media. (That I'm aware of, there may be more) The best place to try this would be, if he was happy to do it, to direct people on to the DJM website and sign up on an online form with their expressions of interest. That way it would be possible to take down their contact details or just an email address so that we could let them know what was happening or if it has been "kickstarted". This way we are getting all of the people in one place. We could put a little right up in each of the magazines and various online locations and see if we can hit a larger audience. To let them know of the plans also telling them to go to a manufactures website, would also give people a bit more of a boost than them seeing a amateurish website asking for money! We could also try asking model shops if they would let us put a poster up in the shop somewhere to try and encourage this. They may not want us to, if this is taking business away from the shop but it may be worth asking. And you never know, people may then start buying more electric locos in the shop if the WCML becomes modelable. Could be a win win for the shop? If we asked them really nicely they may even put info out on their newsletters. ( if you ask if we can, buy a loco at the same time, it makes them a lot more approachable!) Regards Alistair Can you tell I really want it to happen! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Padishar Creel Posted August 15, 2014 Share Posted August 15, 2014 I am one of those who would buy not one but two Pendelinos, and nothing less than a 9 car set (would be like running an A3 and three LNER teaks and calling it "Flying Scotsman?) Yes would also invest up-front. As Hornby already has manufactured the Pendelino in OO would there be any advantage in DJM/Other working with Hornby to downsize the model to N? Hornby are doing the Brighton Belle, they may also be watching this thread and be willing to share experience. I do not know if there is any advantage, hence my question Here's hoping that it happens............ es grüßt pc Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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