RMweb Gold Rowsley17D Posted January 20, 2016 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 20, 2016 John, This still confuses me, C&L do not to my knowledge do not have appropriate chairs to hold the common crossing and the check rails at distances appropriate to DOGA intermediate . in fact they dont even have the 0.8mm chair ( which is to no accepted standard as far as I'm aware ) in stock so this turnout must be being made by cutting up chairs , if that is so , how is the nose of the V being held if the chair isn't correct ?? its a pity the stock rails are being filed, too , they should either be jogged or not but not planned dave From the photo the vee and wing rails are held together and kept apart by metal shim soldered to the bottom of the rail. The outside of the rail is then held in place by what looks like half chairs. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Junctionmad Posted January 20, 2016 Share Posted January 20, 2016 From the photo the vee and wing rails are held together and kept apart by metal shim soldered to the bottom of the rail. The outside of the rail is then held in place by what looks like half chairs. thats what I thought , so its not a totally functional chair based turnout and is in fact a soldered common crossing as I would have expected dave Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hayfield Posted January 20, 2016 Author Share Posted January 20, 2016 Dave You are very correct the chairs they have for the common crossing are cosmetic in some positions and P4 in others and 1 or 2 are for any 4 mm scale. But wait a minuet I have a cunning plan, but more later. Don't forget they are selling a turnout where the common crossing is not soldered together. The .8 mm chair is out of stock at Bristol, Phil's London stand does have a few packs available at the shows he attends, I did give the heads up that he would have some at St Albans. You are correct as they are .80 is neither P4, EM or any of the variants (though Martin explained they would work for gauge widening on a P4 turnout) BUT when you cut through one chair it will fit nicely at a 1 mm check rail distance, for those using 1,25 mm check distances a touch of filler hides the slight gap. But in both cases set the check rail with a check rail gauge either EM or 00 gauge There are a few bits like the filed stock rails I personally would alter, but if you can bear with me I might have an idea or two. The one thing I have not cracked is how the switch blades are attached to the plastic sleeper. Also the tie rods seem to be a filament with brass tubing at both ends ? What is folks thoughts on using the 3rd sleeper as the tie rod ? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hayfield Posted January 20, 2016 Author Share Posted January 20, 2016 From the photo the vee and wing rails are held together and kept apart by metal shim soldered to the bottom of the rail. The outside of the rail is then held in place by what looks like half chairs. thats what I thought , so its not a totally functional chair based turnout and is in fact a soldered common crossing as I would have expected dave Jonathan and Dave On the photos of my turnout that is the case, I only saw a dropper wire attached to all three The Exactoscale Common crossing chairs for the 1-7 crossing are functional in some situations Y chair Functional may be P4 spacing X chair Cosmetic A chair Cosmetic B chair Cosmetic C chair Functional all gauges D chair Functional all gauges The Y chair is there or there about's, I certainly have an idea for the B chair and may also kinda work for the A chair and one of the other centre parts of the block chairs other angles. I would also do the PL1 to 4 chairs differently, but that's a different story which is working for me in EM, 4sf & GOGA intermediate (would also work on the fine version as well The product is good and their work around is to use standard, bridge and small chairs, may not be perfect for some but far better that whats available in ready to lay Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Smith Posted January 20, 2016 Share Posted January 20, 2016 A long time ago but I believe to fix the check rails I just super glued them to the half-chairs. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyID Posted January 21, 2016 Share Posted January 21, 2016 Mind you, you could always buy a cheapo 3D printer and print this (or any other configuration) instead. But feel free.... This one happens to be to a scale/gauge that might induce apoplexy in some of our esteemed contributors, but if they are willing to cough up 100 USD for something similar, more power at 'em. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeTrice Posted January 21, 2016 Share Posted January 21, 2016 Mind you, you could always buy a cheapo 3D printer and print this (or any other configuration) instead. But feel free.... Out of interest, and ignoring the cost of the hardware do you have a view to the cost of materials to produce that turnout? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
raymw Posted January 21, 2016 Share Posted January 21, 2016 3d plastic filament, £15.00 per kilo, 3d printing machine £300.00, skill required for 'doing the drawing', adjusting the machine etc, - priceless. wrt C&L common crossing - http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/95426-bodmin-sr-circa-1930/page-7 post 172 and following. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyID Posted January 21, 2016 Share Posted January 21, 2016 Out of interest, and ignoring the cost of the hardware do you have a view to the cost of materials to produce that turnout? The plastic cost is negligible so its really just the cost of the rail. Maybe $2 ? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Junctionmad Posted January 21, 2016 Share Posted January 21, 2016 Well Andy, if you were to consider a license for the 3D template,( and future ones) , it might make sense to invest in a 3D printer, but duplicating your CAD efforts is seriously time consuming ! dave Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hayfield Posted January 21, 2016 Author Share Posted January 21, 2016 Mind you, you could always buy a cheapo 3D printer and print this (or any other configuration) instead. But feel free.... This one happens to be to a scale/gauge that might induce apoplexy in some of our esteemed contributors, but if they are willing to cough up 100 USD for something similar, more power at 'em. Andy No problems wit me if those who want to go off on a tangent, or talking about self build. For me that's how we develop the hobby Not having seen what quality you can achieve on a home unit, and if buying from someone like Shapeways high quality comes at a cost. Either getting these items built or building your own are options. 3D printing may well over time replace hand building, but not at the moment. Its a bit hard to see the level of detail as the chairs are the same colour. Its difficult to see the level of detail from 1PL to 4PL sleepers. Also the level of detail on the Y, X, A, B, C & D timber positions. It will come to pass that turnouts both straight and curved and chaired to the era and region required will be available to be printed at home. The first step is to get them available via one of the Shapeways type companies Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Smith Posted January 21, 2016 Share Posted January 21, 2016 I know we are essentially discussing OO here but I wonder if printed/moulded point bases with integral chairs for rail to be threaded through would be consistent/precise enough for P4. This is not elitist but tolerances are somewhat tighter for P4 and this type of construction has no provision for adjustment. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
raymw Posted January 21, 2016 Share Posted January 21, 2016 I don't think you can thread through all the rails on a complete all-in-one moulded point base with chairs, the frog would be very tricky, as would wing rails. However, if some home assembly was acceptable, I believe a better solution could be available that would not need all the separate chairs being glued to sleepers as in the current 'kits'. However, if you wanted exact locations moulded into the sleepers, etc, then that would lead to problems for those running different wheels, or going in for gauge widening, etc. It is not possible to please all the people all the time, so there is a need for a more bespoke service, which costs more than mass produced. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Smith Posted January 21, 2016 Share Posted January 21, 2016 The SMP 36" plastic based kits are all threaded but threading in the wing and check rails after bending is a bit problematical. Also the V has to be made from two pieces of filed rail, pushed in so they touch at the point and soldered in situ - very fast to avoid melting the chairs..... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Brinkly Posted January 21, 2016 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 21, 2016 I know this is quite expensive, but factoring the labour it probably isn't too bad. But my thoughts are that if one wanted to get into 'Finescale' modelling, he or she could buy one of these points and then copy the construction method, looking at how things have been fitted etc, which might be a real help. Especially if he or she didn't have access to a good club to tap into. I do appreciate that this place has plenty of information about points and track, but it doesn't beat having one in your possession! Kind regards, Nick. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Smith Posted January 21, 2016 Share Posted January 21, 2016 Nick - yes, the next step would be to buy a kit where the common crossing is already assembled for you, and you get some gauges. The next step would be to buy the individual components. I would recommend the ply sleeper version as chairs can be repositioned by slicing off with a razor blade - it would be much harder to separate a plastic chair from a plastic sleeper! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Junctionmad Posted January 22, 2016 Share Posted January 22, 2016 It has been claimed here , that the creation of a fully functional chaired turnout can be created without the need to build a soldered "V" , never mind a soldered common crossing I personally remained to be convinced, but Im not aware of any such kit being available so its difficult to ascertain if its possible, nor are all the functional chairs readily available to build one. I think far too much concern actually is given to the filing and construction of the V and blades. In reality , with a little practice , this is one of the simpler tasks. the alignment of the wing rail and V is rather more tricky actually in my experience and I think personally I will build a soldering jig for such events In relation to ply sleepers. personally I feel that if you are using plastic sleepered flexi-track, little is gained by using ply and in fact the looks don't easily match. my own fumbling with plastic sleepers and chairs shows there isn't much difference in ability to adjust things while the solvent is drying. I think the use of thin plastic sleepers gave this method a bad name, but now we have full thickness plastic turnout sleepers. personally with a good sharp scalpel I can remove a chair from a plastic sleeper, but I often loose the chair in the process, this doesn't bother me, even if as i practice I make some mistakes but get better at it . I personally find far more work and issues with suitable tie bars and the integration of a turnout operating unit then anything involving filing. The old moving sleeper at least had the advantage that it was easy ! the best way isn't to buy kits if you want to build handmade track, the best way is to just start and except that you will make a few b#lls ups along the way. Dave Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hayfield Posted January 22, 2016 Author Share Posted January 22, 2016 Dave I think I must have not explained my self correctly, build it without soldering up a common crossing, but not a Vee which in my opinion needs to be soldered together. C+L do 2 differing kits with functional chairs, but in my opinion some additional Exactoscale chairs will be needed. C+L also sell the Exactoscale P4 Company turnout and crossing kits and a friend built a turnout to P4 gauge without any P4 track gauges (I would not recommend this) I used to be of the opinion that anyone could make a common crossing with a little tuition. I now from experience have learnt some do either not have the dexterity or just cant be bothered to learn. I am with you that its not too hard to build one, but believe they are a little harder than you make out to build Plastic timbers are easier to work with and make a stronger bond, but keep away from the thin type as the solvent affects them. With you on the ply sleepers and timbers, all ply is visually in my opinion the best. Though if you want thin timbers use ply not plastic Again agree with you on the moving sleeper for a tiebar after seeing the ready built C+L turnout Again buying the parts is the cheapest option, but building one of the better kits does ease some into the discipline Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derekstuart Posted January 22, 2016 Share Posted January 22, 2016 There is nothing wrong with building a non-soldered common crossing (vee tip excepted) I have built two this way and I am not the most skilled in the world at doing so. I built one using standard S1 chairs cut in half together with .68 check chairs. It worked fine. After John's comments the other day I tried it again (just a crossing- no blades) and used the decorative chairs from CL and as John predicted they hold the rail secure enough to prevent gauge spreading- you can use the centre part of the check chair to hold the rails the correct distance apart too. It is still intact a week later. I presented this same idea to Howard Bolton at an exhibition in Aylesbury and he suggested that the one downside is that if you are in locations with temperature variations (loft, garage, shed... exhibition hall) then rail creep over time could break the plastic/ply bond. EDIT: For a ridiculous spelling error. I cannot believe I missed that. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Smith Posted January 22, 2016 Share Posted January 22, 2016 My ply-sleepered plastic-chaired plain track and points are getting on for 30 years old. Stuck to cork ballasted and painted. The layout is currently stored indoors but has spent many years set up in a basement - probably never below freezing though (my basement was always too cold in winter and too hot in summer!). However I see no signs of separation or movement. The rail would have difficulty sliding through the chairs as it has been painted..... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derekstuart Posted January 22, 2016 Share Posted January 22, 2016 Jeff, I was specifically referring to common crossings that are not soldered between the vee and the wing rails, and was not making the point personally only reiterating what one quite experienced chap said. I have not found a problem with my 2 built that way, but time will tell. You are most likely going to get some movement due to expansion- this will be evidenced by shiny patches appearing on the rails next to the chairs. If you've managed to avoid that then I'm sure lots of us would love to know your secret. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hayfield Posted January 22, 2016 Author Share Posted January 22, 2016 Derek The length of a wing/closer rail is about 50 mm (2"), I doubt if any expansion would be noticeable, then it would be along the length of the rail, as the chairs let the rail move length wise rather than width I doubt if the gauge would alter Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Smith Posted January 22, 2016 Share Posted January 22, 2016 My common crossings are not soldered. In all honesty the temperature variation has probably only been about 40 deg F. Also the plain track is in scale lengths with slight gaps and stuck on brass fish-plates. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hayfield Posted January 22, 2016 Author Share Posted January 22, 2016 If only for electrical continuity I would suggest soldering the Vee. Also if you look at the photo, the dropper wire also connects to the wing/closer rails to the vee. Lets not get hung up on the odd bit of soldering, as Dave said a simple jig will be very easy to make Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derekstuart Posted January 22, 2016 Share Posted January 22, 2016 John I think the point of the warning given to me was that the end of the closure rail will want to expand on X direction and the wing will want to expand in a different direction and that might cause it to move laterally as well as longitudinally. As I have said- several times now- I have tried the method a year or so ago and it worked fine for me, but I was merely repeating a piece of advice from someone who does not support that method. Derek The length of a wing/closer rail is about 50 mm (2"), I doubt if any expansion would be noticeable, then it would be along the length of the rail, as the chairs let the rail move length wise rather than width I doubt if the gauge would alter It is interesting to know that this has been done before successfully. Like I said originally, I have tried the method and found no problems- only repeating a warning from a highly regarded and well respected track builder- not to impugn John's comments either. My common crossings are not soldered. In all honesty the temperature variation has probably only been about 40 deg F.Also the plain track is in scale lengths with slight gaps and stuck on brass fish-plates. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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