AndyID Posted January 22, 2016 Share Posted January 22, 2016 The change in length of a two inch piece of NS rail over 40 deg F is less than one thousandth of an inch, or less than plus/minus half a thou from nominal temperature. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derekstuart Posted January 22, 2016 Share Posted January 22, 2016 Correct, Andy. Your point is....? If you are going to use HALF CHAIRS to keep a piece of rail in the correct location (the crossing chairs are not fully functional) and you "glue" it (or use solvent) then that slight movement could be enough to make the joint fail. I really wish that I had not bothered to mention it now. In case I have not mentioned it enough times- I have tried this same method and it seems to work, but it comes with a warning that-- actually, I cannot be bothered to type any more. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyID Posted January 22, 2016 Share Posted January 22, 2016 Correct, Andy. Your point is....? I would think that would be rather obvious That's not to say your contact was wrong, but I think it's more likely what he observed were a consequence of other factors such as changes to the substrate under the turnout due to temperature and humidity. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyID Posted January 23, 2016 Share Posted January 23, 2016 but not a Vee which in my opinion needs to be soldered together. Hi John, I think you are right to say that there has to be a good electrical connection between the rails at the Vee, but that might not necessarily require solder. In "Ye Olden Days", many computers from outfits like IBM and DEC made extensive use of wire-wrap connections on the backplanes they used to connect the various logic elements together - no solder involved at all. I never found a bad connection that was attributed to a properly applied wire-wrap. The only problem is that I don't know how something similar might be applied to turnout construction, but maybe somebody can figure it out. The technology relies on something I would call a "crush weld". Andy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Junctionmad Posted January 23, 2016 Share Posted January 23, 2016 John et al. Maybe I'm still confused but I can't see how for example a DOGA intermediate turnout can be made with 100 % functional chairs. The range of suitable chairs isn't available and in my view trying to chop certain chairs especially around the V nose etc is somewhat suspect. This is why I believe you need a soldered common crossing for these types of turnout. It might be different for those in P 4 of course What would be great, would be to have fully functional chairs that support a1mm flangewsy. That way we easily build either DOGA fine or 00-SF turnouts, limited to just soldering the V. ( if that ) Dave Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craigw Posted January 23, 2016 Share Posted January 23, 2016 Meanwhile, back on topic... Has anyone reading this thread purchased one of these? I'd hazard a guess that they haven't or if they have, are they built to order involving a wait? Can't imagine that they're a stock item ready for immediate delivery. According to their blog, they should have the B6 OO turnout. It is the only one they are advertising because they are trying to avoid a queue, which makes sense. Hoping to build the range up eventually to cover more types and scales/gauges. Not an OO modeller so have not seen one. Regards, Craig W Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyID Posted January 23, 2016 Share Posted January 23, 2016 Has anyone reading this thread purchased one of these? Surely you jest. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hayfield Posted January 23, 2016 Author Share Posted January 23, 2016 The change in length of a two inch piece of NS rail over 40 deg F is less than one thousandth of an inch, or less than plus/minus half a thou from nominal temperature. Andy Thanks for the mathmatics, I think there is a far greater chance of a soldered joint failing under these circumatances than gauge narrowing on a (Whole) chair Correct, Andy. Your point is....? If you are going to use HALF CHAIRS to keep a piece of rail in the correct location (the crossing chairs are not fully functional) and you "glue" it (or use solvent) then that slight movement could be enough to make the joint fail. I really wish that I had not bothered to mention it now. In case I have not mentioned it enough times- I have tried this same method and it seems to work, but it comes with a warning that-- actually, I cannot be bothered to type any more. Derek The half chairs I am thinking of using will be functional and will be kept to a minimum, one of your previous answers gave a clue and in fact seems to have confirmed my idea works In some ways railway modellers are quite a conservative bunch, who are suspicious of new ideas/happy to use traditional methods etc. Good to be cautious but also look to see what can be done Not too long ago many were suspicious if built up common crossings, preferring to use copperclad timbers in strategic areas. Belt and braces was the watchword. Plastic chairs would not work and fail to keep the rails in gauge etc. All these things have proved to be wrong Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hayfield Posted January 23, 2016 Author Share Posted January 23, 2016 Meanwhile, back on topic... Has anyone reading this thread purchased one of these? I'd hazard a guess that they haven't or if they have, are they built to order involving a wait? Can't imagine that they're a stock item ready for immediate delivery. Pete They were on sale at the ST Albans show and some sold. I have no idea if they are taking orders for other sizes, but a limited quantity are in stock and when I chatted to Peter there was a plan to build a limited quantity per week, I guess if required, Not spoken to Peter since they became available so no idea about the quantities involved Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hayfield Posted January 23, 2016 Author Share Posted January 23, 2016 John et al. Maybe I'm still confused but I can't see how for example a DOGA intermediate turnout can be made with 100 % functional chairs. The range of suitable chairs isn't available and in my view trying to chop certain chairs especially around the V nose etc is somewhat suspect. This is why I believe you need a soldered common crossing for these types of turnout. It might be different for those in P 4 of course What would be great, would be to have fully functional chairs that support a1mm flangewsy. That way we easily build either DOGA fine or 00-SF turnouts, limited to just soldering the V. ( if that ) Dave Dave They are selling an A6 turnout built with a soldered Vee with all rails being held in place with chairs. I am guessing its DOGA intermediate as its 00 gauge and not either 00sf or DOGA fine. Look at the photos no soldered contacts between the Vee and wing/closer rails except for the dropper wire (which I guess will add a bit of strength) Do not forget I am using the .8 mm check rail chairs functionally for both EM and 00sf gauges, I am not revealing all my ideas yet, which will be slightly different from how C+L have approached the build. Think about what can be done rather than what we have done in the past. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hayfield Posted January 23, 2016 Author Share Posted January 23, 2016 According to their blog, they should have the B6 OO turnout. It is the only one they are advertising because they are trying to avoid a queue, which makes sense. Hoping to build the range up eventually to cover more types and scales/gauges. Not an OO modeller so have not seen one. Regards, Craig W Craig Stop off at the stand if they are attending a show you are at, Their idea is also valid for EM gauge Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hayfield Posted January 23, 2016 Author Share Posted January 23, 2016 Surely you jest. Someone reading it may be interested in them, as Gordon said look at the cost of other commodities. When I was young modellers built their own turnouts because they could not afford Peco ones. I bought a K's loco kit as a Wills with all the parts was twice the price. Things are different now, baby boomer's (and others) have disposable funds for the hobby. Some may think £108 is good value against £50 + 4 hours modelling time. Think of those who spend hundreds on radio controlled aircraft, many pick up the bits after a crash and start again. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craigw Posted January 23, 2016 Share Posted January 23, 2016 Craig Stop off at the stand if they are attending a show you are at, Their idea is also valid for EM gauge I can say with a considerable degree of certainty that they will not be attending a show near me soon. The attached photo may explain why Regards, Craig W Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hayfield Posted January 23, 2016 Author Share Posted January 23, 2016 Craig You may be attending one over here which they are at, I have met up with about 3 RMwebbers who live on other continents at various shows, mainly North America though. The cost of airfares would buy a few of these though Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craigw Posted January 23, 2016 Share Posted January 23, 2016 Craig You may be attending one over here which they are at, I have met up with about 3 RMwebbers who live on other continents at various shows, mainly North America though. The cost of airfares would buy a few of these though I was only mucking around. I hope to make the pilgrimage to Scaleforum sometime in the next few years (and fit a holiday around it!) I have a lot of people to finally meet and say hello to Regards, Craig W Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hayfield Posted January 23, 2016 Author Share Posted January 23, 2016 Before posting I should have checked the C+L website http://www.finescale.org.uk/index.php?route=product/category&path=346_375_377_1082 Only in 'OO' as a B6 at present (see Blog dated 7 Dec. for the reasons). More to be added to range shortly (including EM, P4 and O gauge) Beautifully hand built turnout with both C&L and Exactoscale 'special chairs' for added effect and effective stretcher bar for connection to point motor. Hand crafted by professional track builder. Cost is as for a C&L kit plus £60 for providing it ready to use straight from the packet. Just connect the feed wires tabs and operating system. How many hours work would you save by spending £60 on having it made for you! These two paragraphs may answer a lot or the questions, other sizes will be available as well as gauges and scales, the blog of 7th Dec states shortage of products due to a large increase in demand Craig, if its in the South East we can share a coffee and bun Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hayfield Posted January 23, 2016 Author Share Posted January 23, 2016 Pete Many of the companies that supply to the modeller are small businesses, Peter has written in the past the balancing he has to do with the finances when deciding which produce have priority in the re-order list. There are a few with very deep pockets and have whole layouts built, but as you said the vast bulk will make their own. Forget the price of ready built turnouts and crossings, that was not the main reason I posted this thread. Its the method(s) they have used on the product and I think in doing so have opened up the ability to more modelers to build their own turnouts without the fear making common crossings that some have Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Smith Posted January 23, 2016 Share Posted January 23, 2016 Dave They are selling an A6 turnout built with a soldered Vee with all rails being held in place with chairs. I am guessing its DOGA intermediate as its 00 gauge and not either 00sf or DOGA fine. Look at the photos no soldered contacts between the Vee and wing/closer rails except for the dropper wire (which I guess will add a bit of strength) Do not forget I am using the .8 mm check rail chairs functionally for both EM and 00sf gauges, I am not revealing all my ideas yet, which will be slightly different from how C+L have approached the build. Think about what can be done rather than what we have done in the past. I get this sense of deja vu, I moved from Peco to P4 30 odd years ago. Plastic chairs from I think K&L then, had just become available together with rail and Brooke-Smith ply sleepers. The first thing I did in P4 was build my own plain track and turnouts. Chairs were functional although 'specials' had to be adapted from standard or slide chairs as these were the only ones available. I did use pre-soldered Vs but there were no such things as pre-soldered common crossings. My turnouts looked just the same as the ready to use ones being discussed, apart from the gauge of course....there is nothing new under the sun... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold martin_wynne Posted January 23, 2016 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 23, 2016 The cost of the C+L turnout is based both on the builders (who is one of the top builders in the country) fees, C+L's profit margin, component costs and VAT !!. Hi John, Do we know who this professional track builder is? It seems to me that if such prices are acceptable it might be better to approach him (or one of the other professional builders) directly. That way you don't have to pay C&L's mark-up and possibly VAT. But more importantly that saving would go towards his fully bespoke service, with track built to match your track plan. In whatever track standard you want. Excellent though these turnouts may be, a layout comprised entirely of straight B-6 turnouts is not going to do justice to money invested. All B-6 may just be acceptable, but surely not all straight? The overwhelming advantage of handbuilt track over ready-made is the ability to have whatever turnout sizes and radii you want, in endless variety, to fit your location and traffic. As on the prototype. regards, Martin. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThePurplePrimer Posted January 23, 2016 Share Posted January 23, 2016 Could anyone please explain to me what is going on with the stock rail where the blades meet it. It looks like it has be machined right back to the web ? Why would you do that - it certainly would have been thought through and decided on. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Smith Posted January 23, 2016 Share Posted January 23, 2016 Martin -agreed, however if you are merely upgrading from Peco, or some other HO track system; better, more appropriate looking track would be a considerable improvement even if limited to straight turnouts...... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
coachmann Posted January 23, 2016 Share Posted January 23, 2016 I am not getting a anyone in particular when I say railway modellers do not 'upgrade' from Peco any more than people upgrade from DC to DCC or from tension-lock couplings to screw link or from 00 to P4. Adopting one or the other is a choice not an upgrade. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
raymw Posted January 23, 2016 Share Posted January 23, 2016 Hi Rob, it's so the blade doesn't foul/go behind the wheel flange - full size, they normally joggle the rail, to give a recess for the blade. The more I look at that point, the more I see it as a quick fix, not the perfection I'd expect to see at that price. But, would I want to assemble more than one or two such 'kits' for sixty quid? No way, far too tedious. A relatively simple jig would help, probably enough to let a child earn some pocket money by gluing it all together. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grovenor Posted January 23, 2016 Share Posted January 23, 2016 Could anyone please explain to me what is going on with the stock rail where the blades meet it. It looks like it has be machined right back to the web ? Why would you do that - it certainly would have been thought through and decided on. Bearing in mind that the builder has to pit these things together pretty quickly and is probably using the C&L pre-filed switch blades, then filing that notch in the stock rail is quicker and easier than finishing off the switch blade properly. just another reason to build your own then you can do it properly. Regards Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hayfield Posted January 23, 2016 Author Share Posted January 23, 2016 Hi John, Do we know who this professional track builder is? It seems to me that if such prices are acceptable it might be better to approach him (or one of the other professional builders) directly. That way you don't have to pay C&L's mark-up and possibly VAT. But more importantly that saving would go towards his fully bespoke service, with track built to match your track plan. In whatever track standard you want. Excellent though these turnouts may be, a layout comprised entirely of straight B-6 turnouts is not going to do justice to money invested. All B-6 may just be acceptable, but surely not all straight? The overwhelming advantage of handbuilt track over ready-made is the ability to have whatever turnout sizes and radii you want, in endless variety, to fit your location and traffic. As on the prototype. regards, Martin. I do know who builds them (not me) but its up to C+L to divulge names etc. Other sizes and gauges are planned according to the blurb I copied from the C+L site along with another scale 7mm ? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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