Oxford Rail announces - OO gauge Mk3 coaches

[Tiddles47]

So looks like its possible they will be here by Xmas.... Guess its just a waiting game now

 

My ScR DBSO came today too and i put my so far only MK3 next to it and the same thing happened.. it pushed the DBSO off the rails... and totally separated after i put it back on.. however i then tried it at the back between  the Mk2a and the 47... absolutely fine, no problems at all... methinks solid bar coupling may be way to go after all

Edited November 27, 2018 by Tiddles47

[mikeharvey22]

Here's my thoughts : 

 

I have a copy of the above BR Corporate Identity Manual. 

 

The only colour references I can find in it are from 1965/6 for Rail Blue / Rail Grey and Rail Red.  Very strange that I can't find any reference to the Grey colours used on later Inter-City onwards liveries. In fact there is very little information on actual liveries, there's much more about signage / brandings/ lettering and uniforms. 

 

Draw your own conclusions............

 

The later versions of the BR Corporate Identity Manual are very hard to find and are closely guarded by design professionals.

I can recall them including livery details into the sectorisation period. So who has one, or whose is Oxford accessing?

[Wild Boar Fell]

Hadn't thought of doing this before,

In my study is a print of a Swallow liveried HST power car, the artist who created it created this and several others from the BR Corporate Identity Manual, I therefore have no reason to doubt the colours chosen. 

 

The lighting in the photo is cruel, it looks closer by eye.

 

The artist should know there stuff as they design liveries for the big railway...

 

 

Wild Boar Fell

[wombatofludham]

All this talk about the light grey on the Mk3a makes me wonder do we know how manufacturers specify paint codes?  Do they use a BS or RAL or are they using something else?  The reason I ask is I recall just after I had started work at Centro just after the launch of the new brand I was given a Centro corporate identity guide, and all the colours, which were designed largely for publicity, were Pantone references.  This caused the infrastructure team a bit of a headache when they had used up the last of the WMPTE dark blue shelter paint as they now had to try and find the nearest green to the Pantone reference from a range of BS paints, which they did with some success.  However, when it came to Regional Railways painting the new train fleet in the Centro version of the RR livery, the green was subtly different because if I recall correctly the railways used a different paint specification.  As it happens the corporate id pack came with hand little tear off strips you could use to check the colour match and the train livery didn't quite match the Pantone swatch - but in my opinion was better for it, as the shelters ended up in a bilious shade of green more reminiscent of something nasty you'd scrape off the walls of a chest clinic than a quality public transport system.

I don't expect Oxford have been using the printer's Pantone references but given the trouble we had back in the 90s finding a paint match to a printing standard I wonder if there is a similar mismatch between specifications for real railway paint and that used by model makers like Oxford, particularly as companies today are trying to move to more environmentally friendly paints?

[Wild Boar Fell]

Which part of the HST power car did you compare it to?

 

It should match with the van end not the cab end.

 

I said earlier that OR used the light (almost white) grey that was applied to locos.

 

The fact that the lower grey is a match for the lower grey on a Heljan 86 proves this.

 

Yes Oxford Rail may have used the correct BR spec grey. But the wrong one!!!

 

The van end.

[Bob Reid]

Isn't it about time we all (inc. myself) moved away from argument/debates/ general hand wringing over the colour of these models.  All that is happening that we are repeating exactly the same stuff as was done back in January, and at various times in between with no solution.  No matter what the answer, it is clear now that they are not going to change the colour, and it doesn't match what went before even on models produced 25-30+ years ago The ScotRail one's are en-route and no amount of moaning and groaning is going to change that now.  I've certainly said my piece about it and won't be continuing it.

[Matt]

On a different strand, i bought my first OR Mk3 at the weekend (FO in Blue/grey) which i got around to unpacking last night.  I have to say i was more impressed than i expected.  Yes the underframe doesn't look quite right (but not sure i would have noticed if not pointed out here) but the rest of the model has a finesse which makes the Hornby / Lima Mk3 (of which i have many and sat alongside for comparison) look like a toy.  The blue and grey colours used seem to be a very close match to Bachmanns Mk2F.  Mine also arrived with all pieces intact (couplings and footsteps) so hopefully OR have improved in this area.  The only slight issue was that the wheels had come out in transit (may have been me flying back from Brum) which revelealed a detail I wouldn't have noticed before - the pins of the wheels actually sit into a metal strip inside the bogie frames, rather than into plastic, which no doubt helps the frictionless running.  Also, whilst i don't want to take anything away from Bachs Mk2F which is superb, at a much lower price point OR have fitted all of the end details in the factory, bar some brake pipes - no messing around with fiddly ETH connections as with the Bach model.  I can't run anything just yet to test in service but overall there is NOTHING lookswise that will stop me stocking up on Blue/grey Mk3s now for my older Scotrail P/P sets to go with my B/G DBSO.  All we need now is a nice blue and/or LL 47/7 to power it.

 

M

[adb968008]

good try with the email to Oxford.....but there's no way he's going to bat an eye lid at this, its not in his interests....he's obviously not into trains and if Oxford goes tits up can just get a job elsewhere in sales & marketing.

That’s a bit harsh considering...

 

He also showed me a photo on his phone of a Bach 47/7 of his own on his layout attached to the OR Mk3s in Scotrail and I was surprised that the colours didn't look far out.

The problem isn’t Oxfords, it’s ours as modellers..

They are cheap and we are buying them.

Until that changes, why should Oxford ?

 

I always found the light grey didn’t stand up well, within a few days brake dust started to darken the finish very quickly.

Look at this picture, the door on the mk3 is obviously newly fitted on to this coach..

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b9/Penzance._-_geograph.org.uk_-_102199.jpg

 

Ex-works they are very light, though I think this picture is over-exposed.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/96782261@N05/15235227111

Edited November 28, 2018 by adb968008

[ThaneofFife]

Isn't it about time we all (inc. myself) moved away from argument/debates/ general hand wringing over the colour of these models.  All that is happening that we are repeating exactly the same stuff as was done back in January, and at various times in between with no solution.  No matter what the answer, it is clear now that they are not going to change the colour, and it doesn't match what went before even on models produced 25-30+ years ago The ScotRail one's are en-route and no amount of moaning and groaning is going to change that now.  I've certainly said my piece about it and won't be continuing it.

 

see post #1785

[Bob Reid]

see post #1785

 

Okay I've seen it, now what?

[37081LochLong]

I think he's trying to say that he'd already said the same thing but using less words

[njee20]

It’s been said repeatedly to be fair, I’m not quite sure what made ToF’s comment the definitive one!

[ThaneofFife]

Okay I've seen it, now what?

.....its all been said before and requires no additional explanation.

It’s been said repeatedly to be fair..... 

 

Repeatedly yes (over the previous 72 pages) but not on this page.  Often people say they don't bother reading back over endless pages in a thread so that's that.    

[njee20]

Yes, so you keep saying, but you're not an authority! If people want to keep debating it that's their prerogative but:

 

- nothing new will be said

- Oxford are extremely unlikely to heed what is said because they believe they're right and the vocal proportion is not a big one

 

If you don't want to keep reading the same thing probably easiest to stay away from the thread, but no need to keep saying "that's that" as if someone everyone will stop!

[ThaneofFife]

Yes, so you keep saying, but you're not an authority! If people want to keep debating it that's their prerogative but:

 

- nothing new will be said

- Oxford are extremely unlikely to heed what is said because they believe they're right and the vocal proportion is not a big one

 

If you don't want to keep reading the same thing probably easiest to stay away from the thread, but no need to keep saying "that's that" as if someone everyone will stop!

 

The thread title is "Oxford Rail announces - OO gauge Mk3 coaches" not "The Oxford Rail Mk3 Coaches ScotRail Lower bodyside paint colour endless drivel debate".

You can press a point of view home without needing to be in a position of authority.  No offence was intended, so whats the problem?  

But maybe this side show has moved your focus away from the livery debate drivel in which case.... mission accomplished!    

[ThaneofFife]

Has anybody thats bought one of the coaches who models in EM managed to regauge them easily enough?  

 

Just wondering whether there room on the bogie frames to retract the wheels to get the required B2B measurement.

[UP 4000]

On a different strand, i bought my first OR Mk3 at the weekend (FO in Blue/grey) which i got around to unpacking last night.  I have to say i was more impressed than i expected.  Yes the underframe doesn't look quite right (but not sure i would have noticed if not pointed out here) but the rest of the model has a finesse which makes the Hornby / Lima Mk3 (of which i have many and sat alongside for comparison) look like a toy.  The blue and grey colours used seem to be a very close match to Bachmanns Mk2F.  Mine also arrived with all pieces intact (couplings and footsteps) so hopefully OR have improved in this area.  The only slight issue was that the wheels had come out in transit (may have been me flying back from Brum) which revelealed a detail I wouldn't have noticed before - the pins of the wheels actually sit into a metal strip inside the bogie frames, rather than into plastic, which no doubt helps the frictionless running.  Also, whilst i don't want to take anything away from Bachs Mk2F which is superb, at a much lower price point OR have fitted all of the end details in the factory, bar some brake pipes - no messing around with fiddly ETH connections as with the Bach model.  I can't run anything just yet to test in service but overall there is NOTHING lookswise that will stop me stocking up on Blue/grey Mk3s now for my older Scotrail P/P sets to go with my B/G DBSO.  All we need now is a nice blue and/or LL 47/7 to power it.

 

M

 

The plates are also conductive, so scraping some paint off  and soldering wires to them could use them as pickups if lighting was ever needed, you can also see the holes for the wiring in the bogies and the entry point at the back.

I haven't tried it yet, maybe one day, when there's eight days in a week.

[Bob Reid]

Has anybody thats bought one of the coaches who models in EM managed to regauge them easily enough?  

 

Just wondering whether there room on the bogie frames to retract the wheels to get the required B2B measurement.

 

 

I don't think there is an easy way! - Although they were not equipped with lighting, as has been previously mentioned they do have integrated electrical pickup's on the bogie's that also form the bearing cups that the axles run in.  The issue with this is that they have a very short axle length of 23.35mm (instead of the usual 26.0mm) to fit between the pickup's / bearing cups which unfortunately leaves no room to alter the back-to-back - the inner end of the axle taper is almost flush with the hub of the factory fitted wheels.  It looks like replacement bogies / frames / wheel sets is the only option for those needing EM / P4 needs - a similar arrangement is used on the Bachmann 2f's and other Bachmann Stock but with a marginally longer axle at 23.75mm.

Edited November 29, 2018 by Bob Reid

[Daddyman]

I ended up buying an OR blue-grey FO for assessment this weekend. There seems to be an issue with the depth/position of the yellow stripe, which I don't recall having seen mentioned on here (apologies if it has been) - any thoughts? 

[Bob Reid]

I ended up buying an OR blue-grey FO for assessment this weekend. There seems to be an issue with the depth/position of the yellow stripe, which I don't recall having seen mentioned on here (apologies if it has been) - any thoughts? 

 

 

Too wide and marginally too low - at least for what I'm needing them to represent;

 

Courtesy & Copyright of John Turner / 53A

 

I'm intending to reduce the height down to the level of the top of the door (there's a rain strip above it on the model that wasn't present on the early Mk3's).  There's possibly an issue with the height to the bottom which that won't resolve but at least it'll look a bit better.

[cravensdmufan]

Too wide and marginally too low - at least for what I'm needing them to represent;

 

3861945278_b96d12d9b7_o.jpg

Courtesy & Copyright of John Turner / 53A

 

I'm intending to reduce the height down to the level of the top of the door (there's a rain strip above it on the model that wasn't present on the early Mk3's).  There's possibly an issue with the height to the bottom which that won't resolve but at least it'll look a bit better.

That's an interesting photo - don't see many of Deltics hauling mk3s.

[Tiddles47]

That's an interesting photo - don't see many of Deltics hauling mk3s.

Did some quick searching on 53a flikr collection it comes up with the following :- 

 

BR Mk3 Inter-City First Open (FO) SC11007 behind "Deltic" 55005 "The Prince of Wales's Own Regiment of Yorkshire" at York - 06/09/1979.

 

The original slide is marked "Kings Cross to Arbroath Mk3 Special", beyond that I've no information on the working.

Edited December 2, 2018 by Tiddles47

[GordonC]

I ended up buying an OR blue-grey FO for assessment this weekend. There seems to be an issue with the depth/position of the yellow stripe, which I don't recall having seen mentioned on here (apologies if it has been) - any thoughts? 

 

Have they possibly looked at a photo of an HST TFO and painted the yellow stripe like it rather than the loco-hauled Mk3a's? The grey band was shallower on those and the stripe above the windows deeper

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/blue-diesels/14560651627/in/photolist-7qsrtX-f31uR9-f31uFJ-dhpsFy-bfnx36-buAA86-dnzPFf-fqYPCe-bfnwQP-obF9rH-bwBxLF-bfmeA8-aEwz82-7umohm-dHQf4U-dHJNCZ-bfmeRx-aEApNy-bfnxpv-bx7UeC-m9EWnB-bfmePD-bfnxg2-bfnwNV-bfmeHv

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/21602076@N05/25792935203/in/photolist-rQYZ9w-tcf1Ri-2at9PDU-uwVvb7-yGQXF6-HNAU7f-z9jZ6p-vTiuMt-zhHupK-vhPu4G-yGKHuj-amYZGV-m9VXkj-bdm7VD-BzRVpA-m9UjZr-ZMkz9r-Fiex2n-7XoeAF-m9VW6f-rQMdnd-bdm8cK-bdm87z-cabxU5-aEU5Kq-J5jYnQ-aEQeyX-Hcdo7X-zEJ8Li-WYwKvG-ZMkxPH-aEV3Gj-RExBzC-ucKCCW-MBbEZ5-2bR5GoK-2at9QAJ-2dadCbS-u127KG-wtPHmc-rRgstD-2at9PHb-2dadCjY-2at9PYG-Hj5igj-GTkq9Q-RjvrYW-wQYib1-AguWop-wL9dhD

 

compared to ....

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/hoover29/8214563606/in/photolist-dvTMz1-fBWF8R-C6Wv1C-so5nuw-3dtARc-qcPUZs-qGgQdz-9nyRqq-p5hegn-rpcy3U-pWUgFS-rXQ9dp-nBF6JF-s9LfMb-9nyQhY-dvNd7i-dvNbnM-ruiCfC-9nvNAH-C76tMh-p6N55b-de9cJh-9m5ynv-ar6CL6-fjN8KM-dvNc9v-jwFLQA-fszVSb-dq4qSR-nHewXg-diEnTy-5WpxnZ-5K9GmJ-aPQsMP-sabVZy-7P7PtL-271Pxny-RYWG4h-Sd8Pzf-QvH2sd-e6EXtw-26sJdGR-Rcf7HB-C7ndxs-REJRqG-R373pp-QF5hKb-QjawJA-jiy7gT-SnwzaC

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/pics-by-john/16514803040/in/photolist-ramFzs-FtqAgu-tx4QFd-RzhCRY-C78bf6-WPSUa8-Vf2daH-iYpXaM-9qTdUP-QNyBX8-Vh5XpW-pMa5qT-Sb66Me-DLh7WL-gZ5EKS-pmxmrZ-YPvKNJ-2bpzajL-Sjfik1-dTFUgb-rK9Rog-Hzj5VF-2aodGy7-XdfYCR-fjrNQA-xg3bq9-SkuYmv-HARZ41-HsLAXx-HFyLFc-MdEWMC-GSpDaM-D6Wq5N-LHfjeH-ycAAsE-KSsUBj-sHnixY-KSsM2y-N1A6DQ-GWY5qh-Q7Ln2d-2cYCUHN-KNvr9F-KTcpgx-K2cowK-JWR7aa-GYo5oe-L7z98V-HoFCax-vZmMig

[Bob Reid]

Looks like it Gordon! they've got the bottom half correct for a LH Mk3a and the top half from and HST Mk3.

[BigAndy]

You all know my views on Oxford's choice of paint.

 

Unfortunately, nothing's going to change from them, and as Bob has said, we probably need to move on.........however, just before we do, I'd like to throw this into the mix.

 

I was fortunate enough to be in on the restoration of 47 712 'Lady Diana Spencer' at Crewe, as a volunteer in the group. When the time came to order the ScotRall paint, the owners chose a company called T & R Williamsons, who were est in 1775 believe it or not. Over the years they have supplied BR amongst other companies, and are still supplying the Railways today with specialist paints.

 

The owners approached Williamsons for an order to repaint Lady Di and were suitably advised by Williamsons as to what paint should be used and indeed was used 30 years ago. When it arrived, we had a little session on comparing the Williamson paint (made from BR specs) with LIma's, Hornby's and Bachmann's choice of colours on their ScotRail liveried stock, along with a small tin of Railmatch paint and also a tin of Precision's.

Lo and behold, they all matched up very, very closely with T & R Williamsons paint ( and each other I may add ) - The Exec Dark Grey was spot on and more importantly to this thread, the Executive Light Grey was also spot on.

 

This all leads to the following conclusion: Whoever Oxford Rail has approached about the 'BR Specs' for its ScotRail Greys, has got it completely wrong, as theirs is the ONLY colour versionss that are nowhere near the T & R Willamson Greys, or Bachmanns or Hornbys etc etc.

Therefore the argument from the Oxford rep that we all voted for a match to the real thing and they are right, is blown out of the water, because of the previous statement. ( We only voted for a match to the real thing because we knew Bachmann, Precision et al had already been getting it right for years, so believed that Oxford would do the same )

 

Do they REALLY believe that all those major manufacturers got it wrong, anf they're the only ones to get it right? Yeah, like I'm the only sane person on the World and everyone else is mad!

 

They must have a completely un-swerving faith in their research to be so completely blindsided by the fact that they are, sadly.......... wrong.

 

I also spke to the Oxford Rep at Warley and informed him of what I have written here - I also got the response that " You al voted for the correct livery, so that's what we've done " Talk about the Emperor believing that he's wearing a wonderful and lovely new suit.

 

They're refusing to listen to advice and also what is right in front of their noses, so they can sadly only blame themselves now if their sales are affected.

 

cheers

 

Andy