Bachmann 2016 Announcements

[darren01]

Hi Just been reading an email from Kernow with some eye watering prices 39-312 Bachmann BR Mk1 SP Pullman Second Parlour Coach E352E - See more at: http://www.kernowmodelrailcentre.com/p/51284/39-312-Bachmann-BR-Mk1-SP-Pullman-Second-Parlour-Coach-E352E#sthash.RtiKAxwm.dpuf£58.95

38-575A Bachmann 10 Ton Fish Van LNER Brown £18.00 for a van!,crazy price !, at that price i can see then flying out of the shops.

[brushman47544]

Makes that Hornby Gresley buffet in blue/grey that everyone said wouldn't sell at ~£48 (but did eventually) look like a bargain!

[phil gollin]

.

 

IF you think those are bad, what about 31-426B - 4 CEP 4 Car EMU at £299.95 !

 

That's £75 per coach for a repeat model.

[GordonC]

With the normal 15% off that'd be around £255. I can't help feeling they'd need to get closer to £200 before they'd sell well. £75 a coach is too much

[Removed a/c]

Picture doesn't seem to match the description ! 

[Steve Purves]

Price wibble again. Boring. If you can't afford it don't buy it. Im sure plenty still will. I have never known another hobby where people expect a god given right to buy new and expensive models. In other hobbies people buy what they can afford and enjoy it... even if it is old kit.

Some people need to adjust their expectations a little I think

[darren01]

So Ok what happen when the price rise to a level that you even think it's too much?, then the next chaps says that's you  need adjust your expectations ?.

No i do not agree with you about this one and i think a lot of other may say the same thing, there comes a point when it's not about i can not afford it, it's about over pricing, How come Oxford can make wagons at 50% less?. 

[jjb1970]

I think it is important to recognise the difference between "unable" and "unwilling". I don't think anybody questions that Bachmann (and any other model supplier) can charge whatever they like for a model. These are not staple foods, water or heating, ultimately nobody needs a model. I also accept that manufacturing costs have gone up at the factories used by Bachmann. I think the answer to price inflation is to buy selectively, buy less and accept that the golden decade of ever increasing fidelity to prototype and a features arms race simultaneously with relatively low prices was an abnormal state of affairs and that historically model railways were not a cheap hobby.

However, for all that my feeling is that Bachmann prices have as much to do with increasing margins as manufacturing cost increases. Now there is nothing wrong with that per se, but what I do find wrong is that they're effectively blaming higher staff costs to disguise a move to bump up margins. I think in the past they undersold their product, now they're swinging to the over end of the spectrum. Something I find interesting is that they also seem to be increasingly the prices of Bachmann US outline significantly. Their US models used to be a bargain basement alternative to higher spec alternatives (they occupied a different market position than their UK offering) but now some of their US outline models seem to be at the same price point as their higher spec rivals from Athearn Genesis, Intermountain, Bowser etc. I just got my Rapido APT-E, to be clear I accept that it is an apples and pears comparison but when I look at the APT-E which is newly tooled to an exceptionally high standard, breaks new ground in terms of interior detail, needed innovative design for the coupling arrangement, is beautifully presented with a nice book etc and was something like £5 more than the SRP of the latest batch of Bachmann 2-EPBs which is something like five years old tooling with touches of design clever it doesn't reflect well on Bachmann pricing. This isn't a small difference, yes the fact Rapido/Locomotion de-risked the APT-E by applying a pre-order model and taking deposits up front means that they it is reasonable to expect a very competitive price however on current form I suspect that if Bachmann had tooled a new model like the APT-E and released it today we'd be looking at £400+.

I will still buy Bachmann models, but there are some I won't buy not because I'm unable to but because I just don't think they're worth it and because rival suppliers are offering better value. But that is just my personal opinion, and this is one of those subjects where it is very much a personal value decision.

[Black 5 Bear]

I think it is important to recognise the difference between "unable" and "unwilling". I don't think anybody questions that Bachmann (and any other model supplier) can charge whatever they like for a model. These are not staple foods, water or heating, ultimately nobody needs a model. I also accept that manufacturing costs have gone up at the factories used by Bachmann. I think the answer to price inflation is to buy selectively, buy less and accept that the golden decade of ever increasing fidelity to prototype and a features arms race simultaneously with relatively low prices was an abnormal state of affairs and that historically model railways were not a cheap hobby.

However, for all that my feeling is that Bachmann prices have as much to do with increasing margins as manufacturing cost increases. Now there is nothing wrong with that per se, but what I do find wrong is that they're effectively blaming higher staff costs to disguise a move to bump up margins. I think in the past they undersold their product, now they're swinging to the over end of the spectrum. Something I find interesting is that they also seem to be increasingly the prices of Bachmann US outline significantly. Their US models used to be a bargain basement alternative to higher spec alternatives (they occupied a different market position than their UK offering) but now some of their US outline models seem to be at the same price point as their higher spec rivals from Athearn Genesis, Intermountain, Bowser etc. I just got my Rapido APT-E, to be clear I accept that it is an apples and pears comparison but when I look at the APT-E which is newly tooled to an exceptionally high standard, breaks new ground in terms of interior detail, needed innovative design for the coupling arrangement, is beautifully presented with a nice book etc and was something like £5 more than the SRP of the latest batch of Bachmann 2-EPBs which is something like five years old tooling with touches of design clever it doesn't reflect well on Bachmann pricing. This isn't a small difference, yes the fact Rapido/Locomotion de-risked the APT-E by applying a pre-order model and taking deposits up front means that they it is reasonable to expect a very competitive price however on current form I suspect that if Bachmann had tooled a new model like the APT-E and released it today we'd be looking at £400+.

I will still buy Bachmann models, but there are some I won't buy not because I'm unable to but because I just don't think they're worth it and because rival suppliers are offering better value. But that is just my personal opinion, and this is one of those subjects where it is very much a personal value decision.

[Black 5 Bear]

Spot on post by jjb 1970, let's face it there will always be models which are more popular than others and contrary to popular belief, there will always be sales and bargains to be had. At the present moment, what a great time to be a NE or GE region modeller !

[GordonC]

It might not be good long term though if your region items often happen in the bargains bin. Good at the time to get things cheap, but might also mean less gets produced for that area in the future

[cctransuk]

So Ok what happen when the price rise to a level that you even think it's too much?, then the next chaps says that's you  need adjust their expectations ?.

No i do not agree with you about this one and i think a lot of other may say the same thing, there comes a point when it's not about i can not afford it, it's about over pricing, How come Oxford can make wagons at 50% less?. 

 

I know that I'm wasting my time; and I know that this pointless debate will go on for ever; but - an ample sufficiency of red wine means that I have to interject .....................

 

If Hornby / Bachmann / Dapol / Heljan / Joe Bloggs are overcharging, then they'll not sell as many as they thought and Hattons / Rails etc. will knock out the surplus at a lower price - much to the delight of those who always said that they were overcharging.

 

On the other hand, if they are not overcharging, their products will sell out in no time - much to the chagrin of those who always said that they were overcharging.

 

It's no different from the Grand National - you choose your horse and you place your bet ............ and you win or lose.

 

Simples !!!

 

I'm off to bed.

 

John Isherwood.

[Dunsignalling]

Spot on post by jjb 1970, let's face it there will always be models which are more popular than others and contrary to popular belief, there will always be sales and bargains to be had. At the present moment, what a great time to be a NE or GE region modeller !

Hornby now know that the size of the "willing" market for locos from those companies/regions (at the prices they want/need to achieve) is a lot smaller than they previously thought. Bachmann will not have failed to notice!

 

That is likely to have two effects; fewer prototypes from those areas will be chosen for future models and those that are will be produced in smaller numbers.

 

If the same thing hasn't been happening with SR and GW prototypes (and, looking around, discounting of them seems to be less deep and less widespread), that's where future investment will be concentrated (though, traditionally, that will be Hornby investment, not Bachmann who mainly do smaller GW types and very few Southern ones of any size).

 

Enjoy your glut whilst ye may. The Hornby B12 and Q6 almost certainly won't be made in the same quantities as the D16, J15 or K1 and, after they are gone, there may be nothing much else for quite a while, whatever the colour of the box.

 

John

[Dunsignalling]

 How come Oxford can make wagons at 50% less?. 

At least in part because they are the new kids on the block and need to get their foot in the door.

[Fenman]

Hornby now know that the size of the "willing" market for locos from those companies/regions (at the prices they want/need to achieve) is a lot smaller than they previously thought. Bachmann will not have failed to notice!

 

That is likely to have two effects; fewer prototypes from those areas will be chosen for future models and those that are will be produced in smaller numbers.

...

Enjoy your glut whilst ye may. The Hornby B12 almost certainly won't be made in the same quantities as the D16, J15 or K1 and, after they are gone, there may be nothing much else for quite a while, whatever the colour of the box.

...

 

I'm not sure about this. There is a finite pool of prototypes from any area. To be frank, after years of having very little to modern standards, the BR steam-era, ex-GE area is now approaching a "full house" of all the main types you might need to run a typical model. You can argue at the margins (an N7 or a C12, maybe; a J17 to go alongside the J15), but, once the B12 is here, there's precious little left to do in any significant numbers.

 

It may simply be that those of us who model this area are running out of "must have" locos to buy; hence the smaller quantities being sold at full price.

 

The same is probably true for coaching stock; there are bits and bobs that it would be nice to have but, frankly, there's not much more we actually "need".

 

These things can be cyclical: I remember one or two Bachmann catalogues - the steam era section divided into the usual Big 4 plus BR - which did not have a single SR loco in them. Not one. Yet there was page after page of GWR types. Who today would say that producing an SR loco is sales death?

 

Incidentally, I would guess the B12 is a relatively cheap loco to produce, with its inside gear (maybe that's why it has been a popular model for train sets. I imagine it will continue to be so). With the benefit of a preserved example in lovely apple green livery, I think it will probably have a decent market.

 

Equally, none of the delightful D16 Clauds has yet been produced in anything other than black, and we know there are some rather lovely liveries in which it could appear - the market for those is likely to extend far beyond ex-GE modellers. I think it's too soon to write it off yet.

 

Paul

[Dunsignalling]

I'm not sure about this. There is a finite pool of prototypes from any area. To be frank, after years of having very little to modern standards, the BR steam-era, ex-GE area is now approaching a "full house" of all the main types you might need to run a typical model. You can argue at the margins (an N7 or a C12, maybe; a J17 to go alongside the J15), but, once the B12 is here, there's precious little left to do in any significant numbers.

 

It may simply be that those of us who model this area are running out of "must have" locos to buy; hence the smaller quantities being sold at full price.

 

The same is probably true for coaching stock; there are bits and bobs that it would be nice to have but, frankly, there's not much more we actually "need".

 

These things can be cyclical: I remember one or two Bachmann catalogues - the steam era section divided into the usual Big 4 plus BR - which did not have a single SR loco in them. Not one. Yet there was page after page of GWR types. Who today would say that producing an SR loco is sales death?

 

Incidentally, I would guess the B12 is a relatively cheap loco to produce, with its inside gear (maybe that's why it has been a popular model for train sets. I imagine it will continue to be so). With the benefit of a preserved example in lovely apple green livery, I think it will probably have a decent market.

 

Equally, none of the delightful D16 Clauds has yet been produced in anything other than black, and we know there are some rather lovely liveries in which it could appear - the market for those is likely to extend far beyond ex-GE modellers. I think it's too soon to write it off yet.

 

Paul

So, they'll make the numbers they can sell at full price. If remaindering becomes standard practice, everybody will wait for it.

 

As for the GE section customer having all they need, I have a couple of pals who might not agree. What about J67/8/9s or the Gresley 52'6" corridors just for starters?

 

Bachmann haven't really seen the light on Southern subjects; they've never really been terribly interested or they would have sorted out their Lord Nelson and the Bulleid coaches years ago. I have at least a grand to put where my mouth is if they do and I'm amazed that Hornby haven't jumped on both already. More recently, Bachmann have done a couple of locos that are preserved at the Bluebell (and a few, very welcome, wagons) - fair play but it's hardly a Damascene conversion.

 

If you look back on Bachmann's record, they have produced one new Southern loco about every six years since they've been going. They released the C and E4 in quick succession to bring the average that low, but the gap from the very useful N Class to the C was something like twenty years. Sorry, but on past performance Southern = Hornby and I don't think that's been changed very much by two locos and so-far-unfulfilled promises of one more and the Birdcage coaches .

 

As for the Clauds, the Hornby model would need significant re-tooling to back-date it to carry the elaborate liveries of yore.

 

John

[cambo74]

Guys we have this discussion on every post for every model from every manufacturer - it's true what 47875 says - if you can't afford it don't buy it - everything in life increases in price - fact of life - look out for bargains and have a go at respraying if it's a different livery you want or renumbering - appreciates some models are only available rtr so if you don't have a donor model then you can't have it - but it's getting very boring and repetitive - less have something more constructive going forward - something like its a good model and a touch pricey, I'd like one but can't afford to it now, look forward to seeing some pics on other forum members layouts. We're just going round and round in circles and every thread comes down to price - you may as well have one forum thread for everything cos eventually it will all boil down to price. I don't have a bottomless pit of money - if I want something I either save up for it cos let's be honest we have plenty of time, or I sell something I no longer want to run or model and put that money towards it - now if only we had a suitable thread where we could buy and sell our stock .... Something along the line of a classifieds thread ??? Sorry last bit was naughty !!!

[Willie Whizz]

 

No i do not agree with you about this one and i think a lot of other may say the same thing, there comes a point when it's not about i can not afford it, it's about over pricing, How come Oxford can make wagons at 50% less?. 

 

A few years back I had a spell working in the Early Years and Childcare Sector as a Business Support Officer for my local authority.  One of the hardest things to get our private sector childcare providers to get their heads around was the fact that, just because your competitors are charging £X per hour and yet you know you need to be charging £X.50 simply to break even, that you don't have to lower your prices so as to match or even beat theirs.

 

Firstly, it isn't all about 'price' - whatever the product or service.  As long as you are at least within sight of the opposition (and sometimes even when you're not!) and have other competitive advantages you can point to (location, OfSTED quality standards, facilities, evidence of customer satisfaction etc.) you can still have a viable business provided you do your marketing right.

 

Secondly, and perhaps crucially, hopefully you should know what your correct pricing should be because you did your own costings correctly.  Your lower-priced opposition may have a completely different set of issues and criteria on which their costings were based.  They may have got their figures wrong; they may not even have done any proper costings at all, but are just charging what everyone else is, less a little more  to undercut, eating further into any profit they may or may not be making.  In that case, they may be getting custom now, but there's a strong likelihood they won't be around to trouble you this time next year ...

 

Or maybe they just benefit from a business structure so very different to yours that you simply cannot hope to compete directly (in childcare it was things like charitable status; big grants not available to your sector; cross-subsidy from other parts of their organisation; cheating on paying the proper Minimum Wage etc.).  In that case you just have to find ways to make your own living and take no notice of what the're doing - or accept you can't compete and get out of the market altogether.

 

But though we should be talking model railways here, to reiterate, as this example shows - in any commercial or quasi-commercial activity, it's never just about 'price'.  Heck, if it was then most of the top-end car makers would have been out of business years ago and we'd all be driving around in Dacias and Protons.  Or, in model railway terms, we'd all still be running Lima (and mighty glad of it).

 

As their customers, if Bachmann see the need in business terms to position themselves nowadays at the pricey end of the market (probably in part because in previous years they weren't doing their costings right) then we either have to accept that and be glad we are at least getting a superior product most of the time - or stop buying their stuff (even at a discount) because we disapprove or genuinely can't afford it; in which case it will no longer be an issue in a couple of years because they'll have gone bust or withdrawn from the market.  Take your pick, because I don't think there's a middle way any more now they've woken up to where they were going wrong.  And Oxford Rail may then be the 'New Lima'.

[Fenman]

...

As for the GE section customer having all they need, I have a couple of pals who might not agree. What about J67/8/9s or the Gresley 52'6" corridors just for starters?

 

Bachmann haven't really seen the light on Southern subjects; they've never really been terribly interested or they would have sorted out their Lord Nelson and the Bulleid coaches years ago. I have at least a grand to put where my mouth is if they do and I'm amazed that Hornby haven't jumped on both already. Since the very useful N, which I understand has been one of their most consistent selling locos ever. More recently, Bachmann have done a couple of locos that are preserved at the Bluebell (and a few, very welcome, wagons) - fair play but it's not a Damascene conversion.

 

If you look back on Bachmann's record, they have averaged one new Southern loco about every six years since they've been going. They released the C and E4 in quick succession, but the gap from the very useful N to the C was something like twenty years. Sorry, but on past performance Southern = Hornby and I don't think that's been changed very much by two locos and so-far-unfulfilled promises of one more and the Birdcage coaches .

 

As for the Clauds, the Hornby model would need significant re-tooling to back-date it to carry the elaborate liveries of yore.

 

John

 

Forgive me for being unclear: I did not say that the ex-GE modeller has everything they could possibly "need"; I said that there was more than enough to cover pretty much everything you need to run a reasonably realistic model. Of course there could be a lot more - an enormous amount more, in fact, probably hundreds of different prototypes remaining to be modelled: but the point is that all the basics are in place (common 0-6-0: check; common 4-4-0: check; common 4-6-0s: check; not one but two ranges of non-corridor stock: check; assorted NPCS: check; some useful models from other companies that worked over ex-GE metals (3F and 4F, for example): check). Compared to most other BR steam era areas, the ex-GE area is doing spectacularly well for super-detail stock.

 

But I think you are wrong if you are implying that the Clauds can only be released in black unless they are re-tooled: a couple of royal Clauds ran in green, and there's an LNER apple green Claud in Hornby's release schedule for this Autumn - fingers crossed.

 

I agree with your thoughts on Bachmann and the SR. I always found their apparent lack of interest a bit mystifying.

 

Paul

[Andy Y]

I think it's worth recognising that there's a big difference between a large, established 'manufacturer' with a network of retail outlets to support and a new, smaller 'manufacturer' supplying through one channel or outlet. The former has directly attributable costs for marketing staff, advertising, QC checking, service and repairs, publicity and exhibition staffing etc. whilst having to demonstrate a margin against a product for future well-being. In a leaner, smaller organisation all of these tasks will be carried out as part of or on top of their normal role. With a leaner supply process there's also scenarios where price stipulations can be more directly argued or adhered to, hopefully there's a return or margin for everyone in the equation but sometimes it may be an awful lot tighter than in an established process.

 

Unless you're there and know all the facts and figures it's not possible to say whether a price is fair, just whether you view it as a reasonable cost for you to purchase something.

[Dunsignalling]

 

 

But I think you are wrong if you are implying that the Clauds can only be released in black unless they are re-tooled: a couple of royal Clauds ran in green, and there's an LNER apple green Claud in Hornby's release schedule for this Autumn - fingers crossed.

 

 

Paul

I assumed you meant GER liveries, and we all know what assuming does.....   

 

John

[steve1023]

I'm not sure the CEP is going to sell at those prices - pretty certain in fact that it will end up in the bargain bins eventually. Don't get me wrong - it's a superbly produced model, but Bachmann have chosen a prototype that they have already exhausted in terms of interest. Newcomers/returnees who missed the first couple of runs may buy one but I think that's all.

 

First run sold like hotcakes, second run didn't sell like hotcakes but went eventually, third run was to release a couple of weathered versions that ISTR were cancelled before they reached the shops because of lake of interest, I'm not sure who the target audience are for this third run.

 

Hornby were inspired when they choose the VEP because the prototype gives them much more opportunity for good financial return - so many different liveries covering a long period. Unfortunately they screwed it up (even Mr Kohler admitted on his blogs that the VEP wasn't Hornby's greatest moment).

 

I'm willing to bet that if Bachmann were about to sell a refurbished 4CEP at £299RRP there would be significantly more interest.....

 

Steve

[Pete the Elaner]

A refurb 4-CEP could be produced in NSE livery in line with their 2016 theme.

I remembered reading a few years ago that they were looking to produce the CEP in all its liveries, original & refurb.

 

That is a little off topic for this thread..

I am almost disappointed I don't model in N..because I like the idea of a 319 whizzing around my layout.

[jjb1970]

Something I've found myself and at least one of my friends has found is that the increases in OO RTR prices, far from pushing people towards cheaper alternatives are pushing me to more expensive models. That may sound really dumb, but I've always had a soft spot for HO brass models of American and Japanese prototypes. Those are expensive models but I'm finding now that I look at some prices for new OO and have decided to give it a miss, save for longer and buy another Overland diesel from the US or fall for something Japanese. If I'm going to be selective and buy less, why not go the full hog and whereas Overland, Tenshodo, Fulgurex models are very expensive they also feel very special. A good friend of mine has decided to change to O using the same logic. Yes it is a lot more expensive but his decision is that he'd rather build a small O layout with a small set of stock than continue in OO.

[Removed a/c]

What you all need to do is emigrate.....  ........then the VAT will be deducted. If you keep the parcel size relatively small there will not likely be any duty (it is rare I pay any).  I  find it cheaper (if I am putting in an order anyway) to even get my Kadees from the UK.