Bachmann 2016 Announcements

[Bon Accord]

Something I've found myself and at least one of my friends has found is that the increases in OO RTR prices, far from pushing people towards cheaper alternatives are pushing me to more expensive models. That may sound really dumb, but I've always had a soft spot for HO brass models of American and Japanese prototypes. Those are expensive models but I'm finding now that I look at some prices for new OO and have decided to give it a miss, save for longer and buy another Overland diesel from the US or fall for something Japanese. If I'm going to be selective and buy less, why not go the full hog and whereas Overland, Tenshodo, Fulgurex models are very expensive they also feel very special. A good friend of mine has decided to change to O using the same logic. Yes it is a lot more expensive but his decision is that he'd rather build a small O layout with a small set of stock than continue in OO.

 

In a similar vein, a diversion to N gauge has resulted for me. The level of detail on so many modern models is comparable to OO, plus you can run near scale length trains on an 8 x 4 board.  The number of prototypes available for my 50's BR steam layout is considerable with allowances for occasional diversions pre war.

Not only that, but Union Mills locomotives must be one of the better kept model railway secrets!

[Ozexpatriate]

However, for all that my feeling is that Bachmann prices have as much to do with increasing margins as manufacturing cost increases. Now there is nothing wrong with that per se, but what I do find wrong is that they're effectively blaming higher staff costs to disguise a move to bump up margins. I think in the past they undersold their product, now they're swinging to the over end of the spectrum.

 

Something I find interesting is that they also seem to be increasingly the prices of Bachmann US outline significantly. Their US models used to be a bargain basement alternative to higher spec alternatives (they occupied a different market position than their UK offering) but now some of their US outline models seem to be at the same price point as their higher spec rivals from Athearn Genesis, Intermountain, Bowser etc.

 

I just got my Rapido APT-E, to be clear I accept that it is an apples and pears comparison but when I look at the APT-E which is newly tooled to an exceptionally high standard, breaks new ground in terms of interior detail, needed innovative design for the coupling arrangement, is beautifully presented with a nice book etc and was something like £5 more than the SRP of the latest batch of Bachmann 2-EPBs which is something like five years old tooling with touches of design clever it doesn't reflect well on Bachmann pricing. This isn't a small difference, yes the fact Rapido/Locomotion de-risked the APT-E by applying a pre-order model and taking deposits up front means that they it is reasonable to expect a very competitive price however on current form I suspect that if Bachmann had tooled a new model like the APT-E and released it today we'd be looking at £400+.

Let's remember how long ago it was that RapidoTrains set the price for the APT-E and how long ago Bachmann Branch-Line set the original price for the Midland Pullman.

 

Today the Midland Pullman is offered at £599.95 and the 4-CEP is £299.95. The Midland Pullman was modelled to a high standard, perhaps close to the APT-E, though I would accept an argument that the ATP-E was 'better'. At £100 per Pullman 'unit' does the 4-CEP at £75 per 'unit' look like a bargain? The SECR Birdcage stock is priced at £59.95 each. Evidently there is a lot of consistency in Bachmann's pricing for items in production.

 

In comparison, a couple of recent RapidoTrains announcements include a box car for $50. (I didn't confirm if this is US or CAD.) and the Royal Hudson (4-6-4) is US$600 for DC Ready (no sound).

 

The Bachmann A1 (almost the same number of wheels and their most expensive steam locomotive, but not new tooling) retails for £179.95 ($US260). This is much less than the Royal Hudson.

 

Pricing comparisons are a moving target and very much a function of conditions when a firm price is set.

[Removed a/c]

But are Rapido prices based on what they think will sell as opposed to Bachmann ordering X amount and pricing based on how many were made? If that makes sense? 

[jjb1970]

I think there are quite a few reasons for the very competitive (read bargain) price of the Rapido APT-E. Rapido worked Locomotion and applied a pre-order model which reduces risk considerably and guaranteed them no inventory and prompt payment up from Locomotion (which is as well, ultimately backed by the UK government as part of the Science Museum). Looking at Locomotion they charged a £50 deposit, if they made 2000 models then that is £100,000 up front a year before delivering any models. And actually it would have been considerably more than £100,000 as many paid in full when ordering it seems. That would massively ease Locomotion's cash flow with very positive benefits for their project costs. And given that this was Rapido's first excursion into UK OO I'm guessing they'll have offered Locomotion attractive terms. So looking at all that the APT-E really should be priced very attractively. BUT, and it is a big but, if we keep the comparison with the Bachmann 2-EPB, then the tooling for that model is several years old and if the costs of tooling development have not been fully recovered now they shouldn't be far off. The APT-E price includes recovering all development and tooling costs from this one off release if this is a one off release. This means that whilst the comparison is an apples and pears one to Bachmann's advantage in many ways, the flip side is that the current 2-EPB cost does not have to include recovery of tooling and development costs in the way that the APT-E does. Given that the 2-EPB has touches of design clever and uses existing tooling then the costs of manufacture should be relatively low by comparison. And regardless of everything, it is still the case that a significantly more challenging model designed and tooled to a noticeably higher standard, with 4 vehicles instead of two and presented/packaged far more nicely is only about £5 more expensive based on SRP despite being in the shops sooner.

In a sense this is all a bit pointless really as people either consider a model offers good value or it doesn't and will either buy it or not buy it. The costs of manufacture do not determine the retail price of the things we buy in many cases (for example designer label clothes are often made in the same low cost environments as generic non branded alternatives despite retailing at vastly higher prices, other good examples are perfume and soft drinks) so in a sense whether or not a model costs more or less to produce is not what necessarily sets the retail price. However unfortunately it is Bachmann that set themselves up for a lot of this by pointing to staff wage rises etc as the reason for price rises. If they'd admitted that they'd been under pricing, that their factories could get a better return manufacturing models for other markets and considered that the UK market would support higher pricing then I'd really have no issues. And even if we accept the Bachmann argument, that'd explain big increases for new projects, but re-use of existing tooling should not be subject to anything like the same degree (noting as well that commodity prices have been through the floor for the last couple of years) as a new project. And of course none of this considers currency movements.

[asmay2002]

And even if we accept the Bachmann argument, that'd explain big increases for new projects, but re-use of existing tooling should not be subject to anything like the same degree

 

They claim that their big increase in cost is wages (and hence assembly costs) not the cost of the tooling so whether the tooling is new or old may make little difference to the price rise.

[cctransuk]

Are we STILL going on about this ??????????????

 

Face it - they quote a price, you pay it or not - the choice is yours.

 

Either they make money, or they don't - that's their gamble.

 

The only thing that is certain is that .................. page after page of speculative argument and counter-argument won't change a !"£$%^&*() ing thing !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

If you've got that much time on your hands - do some modelling.

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

[Guest]

Are we STILL going on about this ??????????????

 

Apparently so. Bachmann blue 2EPB @ Hattons £72. Factor in cost of airbrush, compressor, paint, varnish, transfers and you're still nowhere near the RRP of the latest release. In fact buy it for £72 and pay someone to repaint it for you... you've probably still saved money. Don't want a 2EPB? Other bargains are available. What you want isn't available at a bargain price because it's fresh off the boat from China? Wait a while. I know what some of you are thinking... if we were all as tight as me, we wouldn't have any new models as Bachmann/Hornby etc wouldn't have a market and would have gone belly-up. In that case, we'd all go back to detailing the several million Lima models that are listed daily on ebay and we'd probably be a happier and less anxious bunch.

I do understand that collectors who stick a model in a display case and get all paranoid about a crease on a box flap won't want to go down the above route but then ask yourself... do you really need the latest Bachmann 44-XXXX at £several_million_pounds??? No you don't. You want it, but you don't need it.

The price is what it is. This thread ceased to be about Bachmann's 2016 announcements a long time ago, and has morphed into another price whinge. I'm afraid the only useful page of this thread is the first one.

[stewartingram]

Are we STILL going on about this ??????????????

 

Face it - they quote a price, you pay it or not - the choice is yours.

 

Either they make money, or they don't - that's their gamble.

 

The only thing that is certain is that .................. page after page of speculative argument and counter-argument won't change a !"£$%^&*() ing thing !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

If you've got that much time on your hands - do some modelling.

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

The one factor that never seems to be in the argument, is the subject of the model.

 

If I wanted a J15, I had to scratchbuild, or build a kit, no other choice. Then Hornby produced one. At that point I - that is ME, no-one else - made a decision on whether it was a worthwhile purchase, dependent upon availability, quality, and price. (And unusually I purchased 2 of them). If I had decided not to, it was back to the scratchbuild or kit, not turn to Bachmann, Heljan, DJM or whoever. Same goes for most other locos I have bought, with odd exceptions  such as the 75xxx. But even then, I compared, then chose.

Model railways is a hobby, not a vital item, and brand loyalty doesn't come into it for me. It is subject matter. Those that have winged about the the Heljan B-G and " will never buy another Heljan", whether they may have been unfortunate or not, are missing the point. It was available, they bought it. Next "rare" Heljan may be say a Fell diesel (for instance). They want one, only they can decide by subject whether they should buy it, no alternative would exist.

There have been numerous sensible posts discussing business strategy on pricing in the real world, but most I think have been posted in invisible ink.

 

Stewart

[jjb1970]

I don't think anybody is pretending that they actually "need" model trains in the true sense of that word. Model trains are a hobby and a discretionary purchase. That however is true of probably most of the things we buy. However, if people are passionate about something then they're going to hold opinions on the subject, both positive and negative.

[bigherb]

I don't think anybody is pretending that they actually "need" model trains in the true sense of that word. Model trains are a hobby and a discretionary purchase. That however is true of probably most of the things we buy. However, if people are passionate about something then they're going to hold opinions on the subject, both positive and negative.

Yep you don't need underpants but it is nicer with them.

[Colin_McLeod]

Yep you don't need underpants but it is nicer with them.

Quite. But Hattons don't sell pre-used ones!

[Gwiwer]

Quite. But Hattons don't sell pre-used ones!

 

 

Actually they do.  You don't have to look too far through their second hand listings to find some items which are really pants

 

Bachmann 2016?  We have arrived at the new world order of much higher (much more realistic, perhaps) prices which will force slimmer catalogues and businesses I'm afraid.  We've had a good run and there are still a good many bargains about.  But I do have to admit wondering at the wisdom of yet more 4Cep units in the liveries already offered.  Plain blue SYP must either be retained under commission rights (it was released once only through Modelzone) for longer than is normal or thought to be an utter loser when the market is full of green and b/g ones.  With two of each even I can't justify any more - not at any price and certainly not at 2016 prices.

[JSpencer]

The one factor that never seems to be in the argument, is the subject of the model.

 

If I wanted a J15, I had to scratchbuild, or build a kit, no other choice. Then Hornby produced one. At that point I - that is ME, no-one else - made a decision on whether it was a worthwhile purchase, dependent upon availability, quality, and price. (And unusually I purchased 2 of them). If I had decided not to, it was back to the scratchbuild or kit, not turn to Bachmann, Heljan, DJM or whoever. Same goes for most other locos I have bought, with odd exceptions  such as the 75xxx. But even then, I compared, then chose.

Model railways is a hobby, not a vital item, and brand loyalty doesn't come into it for me. It is subject matter. Those that have winged about the the Heljan B-G and " will never buy another Heljan", whether they may have been unfortunate or not, are missing the point. It was available, they bought it. Next "rare" Heljan may be say a Fell diesel (for instance). They want one, only they can decide by subject whether they should buy it, no alternative would exist.

There have been numerous sensible posts discussing business strategy on pricing in the real world, but most I think have been posted in invisible ink.

 

Stewart

 

Yes there are few threads with a "will never buy from company XXX again".

 

I have had issues with all makes I have brought except Rapido and Oxfordrail which in fairness arrived only on the scene in the last 5 minutes, and Dapol, whom admittedly don't have a big range in OO gauge.

The number of issues have been relatively small in proportion to the amount brought.

 

All have been helpful putting things right when I asked for help. The only time I actually sent anything back for refund was just after Heljan switched from all soft foam interior to a hybrid foam and ice cube package, whereby the ice cude package was not up to the job and everything kept arriving with serious damage. That is it.

 

I think what causes the "never buy again..." is not so much "it was broke" but more "...that was not the customer service I was expecting". Some people do genuinely have a serious case to complain, maybe not legally, but genuine none the less. Others may complain but they don't understand, and a very few because they are less than honest.

How the company handles these is often quite complex and varies based on experience and how the company wishes to position itself objectively.

[D5541]

Well, having read through a few pages of price debates, just thought I'd add my few words, keeping it moderately objective and related to the 2016 range...

 

Last week I picked up 08631 in NSE livery. For a couple of bob over £80, I'm very impressed with it and I thought the separate etched nameplates were a nice touch. For me, I thought it was great value :-)

 

I also (although not this year's release) got a Thumper as well, equally lovely unit and absolutely no second thoughts about the money I've spent this month on Bachmann stuff (including the Farish NSE 08 as well).

 

However, that's enough spending for a while n while my budget recovers, I thought of a different way to get that EPB I fancy...

 

A pile of bits from replica, it might not end up perfect, but it'll be mine :-)

[rob D2]

It's funny, I brought the CEP on a whim in 2013 at £89 , can't shift it on eBay now even at £100 compared with the new price...

 

Their class 47s are good bargains at present but it worries me, as it appears no one is modelling the 90s, which could have a knock on effect for other releases

[newbryford]

 

Their class 47s are good bargains at present but it worries me, as it appears no one is modelling the 90s, which could have a knock on effect for other releases

 

Aren't Bachmann doing the 90?

 

 

 

oops...........

Cheers,

Mick

[GordonC]

I wonder if they just picked the wrong liveries with that batch of 47s. Perhaps there was already quite a few Heljan and vitrains class 47s out there in those liveries that demand was largely satisfied.

[298]

I wonder if they just picked the wrong liveries with that batch of 47s. Perhaps there was already quite a few Heljan and vitrains class 47s out there in those liveries that demand was largely satisfied.

I'm surprised they or anyone else hasn't done 47555, ideally as a twin pack with another 47555. That bloody thing was everywhere....!

[phil gollin]

It's funny, I brought the CEP on a whim in 2013 at £89 , can't shift it on eBay now even at £100 compared with the new price...

 

.

 

Your question seems to answer itself - lots of people bought them cheap - why would they buy them now at a higher price (especially with the possible problems of s/h) ?

 

Actually, you made me look at E(vil) - Bay and it was interesting the levels that (presumably) dealers were trying to off-load "new" old-stock plain green 4-CEPs at - around the £141 mark.  I predict that this will be the price the new ones will be reduced to once the honeymoon period is over. 

[rob D2]

It'd be really interesting to be a fly on the wall at Bachmann headquarters wouldn't it ?

 

I'd love to know the real story of what's popular and what isn't

[GordonC]

It'd be really interesting to be a fly on the wall at Bachmann headquarters wouldn't it ?

 

I'd love to know the real story of what's popular and what isn't

 

Even they might only know half the story anyway. Even once a stock is cleared from their warehouse it may be difficult to quantify how many are sitting around on model shops shelves

[Dunsignalling]

It'd be really interesting to be a fly on the wall at Bachmann headquarters wouldn't it ?

 

I'd love to know the real story of what's popular and what isn't

Easy enough to tell, but not straight away.

 

Leave it six months, then search for the item on Hatton's website. If it comes up as "more than 10 in stock", you know it isn't, if they have sold out, it was.

 

Repeat after another six months to identify the real lemons........

 

John

[Matt]

I wonder if they just picked the wrong liveries with that batch of 47s. Perhaps there was already quite a few Heljan and vitrains class 47s out there in those liveries that demand was largely satisfied.

 

Agree.  47834 in intercity was an odd choice given that 835 in same livery had been a (slow selling) limited Ed fairly recently to 834's release.  47365 in RFD came out now that long after Rail Exclusives did 4 RFD models based on ViTrains - 2 numbered and 2 unnumbered, 2 in RFD euro livery - I suspect several potential customers already got their fix through RE.  47190 in RF petrol has been more of a mystery why hasn't sold... might be due a Vi example in same livery that hung around at bargain prices for some time in lead up to release.  The RES 47/7 is also a slight surprise to me given Vi version of same livery had long sold out and didn't loiter too much... maybe just not a popular livery?

 

I do model 90's and I have most of these models and they are nicely done.

 

What does surprise me is why there haven't been any 1980's banger blue 47s released (with sealed beam headlight) as would have thought this would be popular.  Vi only did one of these and was hard to come by...  Finally they have released a "standard" LL 47 this year which I hope proves to be a good seller for them - this seemed like an obvious missing for a while.

 

Maybe they could do a 37/0 in large logo next rather than yet another 37/4... 

[GordonC]

Agree.  47834 in intercity was an odd choice given that 835 in same livery had been a (slow selling) limited Ed fairly recently to 834's release.  47365 in RFD came out now that long after Rail Exclusives did 4 RFD models based on ViTrains - 2 numbered and 2 unnumbered, 2 in RFD euro livery - I suspect several potential customers already got their fix through RE.  47190 in RF petrol has been more of a mystery why hasn't sold... might be due a Vi example in same livery that hung around at bargain prices for some time in lead up to release.  The RES 47/7 is also a slight surprise to me given Vi version of same livery had long sold out and didn't loiter too much... maybe just not a popular livery?

 

I do model 90's and I have most of these models and they are nicely done.

 

What does surprise me is why there haven't been any 1980's banger blue 47s released (with sealed beam headlight) as would have thought this would be popular.  Vi only did one of these and was hard to come by...  Finally they have released a "standard" LL 47 this year which I hope proves to be a good seller for them - this seemed like an obvious missing for a while.

 

Maybe they could do a 37/0 in large logo next rather than yet another 37/4... 

 

47834 was perhaps chosen as a partner for 47835 for Royal Train duties

 

I cant say I'm hugely convinced by the look of the flush-fronted Bachmann Class 47s such as 47190 at both ends. I might have bought one a Railfreight Petroleum one had it not been a flush fronted one. More Large Logo 47s were long overdue so I hope 47436 is a good seller for them.

 

I'd definitely agree with more Large Logo 37/0s and plain blue 47/4s

[brushman47544]

I'd definitely agree with more .. [snip] .. plain blue 47/4s

 

I agree, but personally I would like one with dominos. Plain blue is difficult because it was so long lived. If it has a headlight and even worse a radio aerial it's too late for me.

 

In a way Bachmann has done the right thing with its 47001 (ignoring the fact that it's weathered unless you want sound) - it's much easier to add the headlight and radio aerial than remove them. I doubt there would be enough demand for all versions without a decent period of time between them. Replica offers the headlight as a spare part, so you can even place them in non-standard positions, such as on 47407.