Cooper craft - Cautionary notes for customers - Its fate and thoughts on an alternative

[chris p bacon]

What I find bizarre is people are still sending him money. You do all know the definition of insanity !!!

  In ref to this post.

 

Hi,

 

It is possible to get to the Shop pages on the Coopercraft website without passing the Home page which is the only place that the red warning appears. I found that if I searched for Coopercraft Kirk then I was directed to the pages listing my former range where it was possible to place an order and be charged the payment without ever seeing any notice of non availability. I did this as I had heard from other individuals who had done this then found me. If you search for Ian Kirk you get the website for my existing range of O gauge. The little bit of my business that I kept for my (semi) retirement. Although having no legal responsibility I feel obliged to do what I can to  prevent potential customers for my former range being ripped off.

 

best wishes,

 

Ian

And then this one from Ian.

 

I typed "Coopercraft Kirk" into google and the first page that came up was this one.

http://shop.cooper-craft.co.uk/index.php?cPath=61

Which doesn't have the warning on, and why it is easy for the unsuspecting to place an order in good faith.

 

Shame as there are several examples in the range I would order (I still need 50+ coaches) but I'll make them out of resin instead.

[Clive Mortimore]

Recently I googled LNER articulated non corridor coaches, and clicked on images. There are a few images that look like coach diagrams. When you click them they take you to the page on the Coopercraft site relating to the type of coach, no warning they are out of stock.

[thegreenhowards]

Has anyone managed to buy the sides he has listed on the website online from him?

I have managed to order by phone, and the items arrived swiftly. On another occasion I had to chase it twice before anything arrived, but I got them eventually and he didn't charge me until they were sent. I'm inclined to give him the benefit of the doubt, and say that he is incompetent, IT illiterate and absent minded rather than deliberately fraudulent. Not the right guy to be running the business though!

[stock_2007]

I have managed to order by phone, and the items arrived swiftly. On another occasion I had to chase it twice before anything arrived, but I got them eventually and he didn't charge me until they were sent. I'm inclined to give him the benefit of the doubt, and say that he is incompetent, IT illiterate and absent minded rather than deliberately fraudulent. Not the right guy to be running the business though!

I think its more a case of he is taking orders and payment for items that are not in stock, if he had said my item was on back order I would not have a problem.

[Compound2632]

I'd miss the Coopercraft website - I find it a very useful reference source for my ebay hunting!

[sp1]

I'd miss the Coopercraft website - I find it a very useful reference source for my ebay hunting!

And that is what, sadly, suggests things might be viable for Coopercraft if things were run properly: all of the kits pop up on eBay (some more than others) eg the more common ex Kirk coach kits you should expect to pay upwards of £18 (although I have been lucky and picked some up cheaper than this). The GWR wagons fetch prices on a par with Cambrian or ParksideDundas if you factor in postage - and those companies don't seem to be struggling (although one seems to be about to retire)......

[hayfield]

Had an interesting but sadly brief chat with Ian Kirk at the weekend, Coopercraft came up, but more interestingly is the fact that we might have had modelling on the cheap in the past and now prices are catching up with European prices. Had we paid a slightly higher price then perhaps a few more companies would still be around  

[Joseph_Pestell]

Had an interesting but sadly brief chat with Ian Kirk at the weekend, Coopercraft came up, but more interestingly is the fact that we might have had modelling on the cheap in the past and now prices are catching up with European prices. Had we paid a slightly higher price then perhaps a few more companies would still be around  

But let's make clear that we are not blaming the customers. If a producer does not know how to properly cost his goods, including suitable figures for labour, profit and distribution, he does not deserve to be in business.

 

It's not just in modelmaking either. In my current line of work, most of the producers do not even know the real cost/price of their main ingredient!

[hayfield]

But let's make clear that we are not blaming the customers. If a producer does not know how to properly cost his goods, including suitable figures for labour, profit and distribution, he does not deserve to be in business.

 

It's not just in modelmaking either. In my current line of work, most of the producers do not even know the real cost/price of their main ingredient!

 

 

I was not blaming Coopercraft customers, but if you price your goods above market rates you potentially risk loosing sales. I guess in the past Coopercraft were high volume low profit margins. But what I was saying is that in the past railway modelling was far cheaper, prices now have risen far above inflation and catching up with Continental prices. All I was saying was " had prices been higher would some of the companies which have ceased trading still be with us"

 

We have seen C&L now downsize back to its roots where overheads are far less, hopefully this format will ensure its survival. Unlike Coopercraft production is sourced to an outside company(s) so the dynamics are different thankfully   

 

If you look at the supermarkets, they are all reducing prices. The big boys can afford to do this by reducing margins and or deals with manufacturers, which smaller companies cannot match. We only buy emergency supplies at our local Co oP as they are too expensive, normal shopping at Morrisons 

[jjb1970]

The OO - HO comparison is about much more than price. Until about 15 years ago there was an ocean of difference in detail and quality between OO and good European HO. Quite simply OO was much cheaper because it was a much poorer product in every way. Now the detail gap has closed although European HO still seems more adventurous with exploiting the potential of DCC and in my experiance product QA is better. That has been the killer for kits, as RTR improved and we saw a great proliferation of superb RTR it meant that unless you bought kits for the joy of building them there was much less need for kits. At one time kits sold well because it was the only way other than scratchbuilding to get good models. So yes, British outline has traditionally undercut European HO but to blame the current issues certain kit manufacturers have on miserly customers is a bit disingenuous I think.

[kandc_au]

This thread is really going off on a strange tangent.

What has the current C&L situation got to do with Coopercraft????

It has been sold to another person who has divested themselves of part of C&L products, and has chosen not to have a storefront.

Doesn't mean it is any less viable.

 

Coopercraft has/had/I have no idea now, a broken moulding machine, supposedly.

Still leaves the issue of why castings are no longer available.

Were they done by someone else, or did he do them himself?

From what has been reported you can still get etches or some at least.

Are they sourced outside?

[MJI]

 

 

Seems like it's safe to cross PP off my sh*tlist? 

 

Not until they fix their webs(h)ite.

 

Strange screens which stop me sending money, had to contact a few companies to invoice me as it was broken.

 

I can pay, get the history, but major sections are hacked or broken, come up with a strange blue page and not the text screens of old.

[Joseph_Pestell]

This thread is really going off on a strange tangent.

What has the current C&L situation got to do with Coopercraft????

It has been sold to another person who has divested themselves of part of C&L products, and has chosen not to have a storefront.

Doesn't mean it is any less viable.

 

Coopercraft has/had/I have no idea now, a broken moulding machine, supposedly.

Still leaves the issue of why castings are no longer available.

Were they done by someone else, or did he do them himself?

From what has been reported you can still get etches or some at least.

Are they sourced outside?

 

Not that we want to compare with any other artisan producer, but understanding the business model is important to understanding Coopercraft's current problems and any potential solutions. If Coopercraft was not building in enough profit margin, it would explain why there is not enough money in the business to get a new (to him) moulding machine. Good secondhand ones are out there and remarkably cheap.

 

About 25 years ago, I enquired of a well-known manufacturer, how much it would cost for him to produce mould tools for me for a range of HO wagon kits. Back then it was about £5,000 per wagon. Let's suppose that I could have sold 5,000 of each, that gives a development cost of £1 per wagon to amortise. Given that the cost of plastic for moulding is pennies, that would have given scope to retail the kits at about £5 and make plenty of profit both for the producer and the retailers. £5 would probably have worked well in the Continental market but it would have been seen as pricey here (I think that the Parkside CCTs were £5.25 at the time, ordinary wagons about £3.50). Rtr such as Roco and Electrotren were about £8.50 at the time.

 

I wonder how much the current owner paid for the business. Perhaps too much given that the development costs may already have been amortised and the market for the existing kits largely satisfied. He has to amortise his purchase cost over what he does now and that will impact on his ability to reinvest in new equipment.

Edited March 29, 2017 by Joseph_Pestell

[Jol Wilkinson]

The quality of older RTR made kit building desirable if you wanted better models. At the same time, RTR pricing set the levels that people were willing to pay for a kit. High volume, low margin items were okay but it was always more difficult for those operating at the other end of the scale. 

 

The current quality of RTR is having an impact on kit building and therefore sales. However, unless you want another "looks alike" layout, you would want to make your own models from the wide range that is available. There are other influences, including the unwillingness of many people to learn new skills.

[MJI]

I want to get a Blacksmith Siphon G detailing pack but do not want to risk ordering one!

[Joseph_Pestell]

 

From what has been reported you can still get etches or some at least.

Are they sourced outside?

 

From what others have said on this thread, yes, he gets his etching done elsewhere. Modern environmental legislation makes it difficult to do on a small scale.

[Jol Wilkinson]

From what others have said on this thread, yes, he gets his etching done elsewhere. Modern environmental legislation makes it difficult to do on a small scale.

 

Very few, if any, suppliers of etched kits or parts do their own etching. Not legislation but economics are the primary reason.

 

Like 3D printing, "all" you need to do is design the artwork which nowadays means sitting at a computer keyboard.

[Chris Higgs]

Very few, if any, suppliers of etched kits or parts do their own etching. Not legislation but economics are the primary reason.

 

Like 3D printing, "all" you need to do is design the artwork which nowadays means sitting at a computer keyboard.

 

I don't do my own etchings, resin castings or 3D prints. If you are doing anything commercial, there is absolutely no way you can match the combination of price and quality that those who do this professionally offer. Plus in the case of the first two of these, the chemicals involved are not things you want to be handling if you can help it.

 

Chris Higgs

[Siberian Snooper]

I want to get a Blacksmith Siphon G detailing pack but do not want to risk ordering one!

Get the David Green one.

[raymw]

Doing the cad work for others to produce the items is relatively easy, and needs no physical skills or specialist equipment, but if you want to do large scale etching, for example, it's not something you can do in the front room. The chemicals involved are relatively safe/easy to use/dispose of, however. Your local water board uses ferric chloride in large quantities, and the other chemicals are mainly based on caustic soda. However, it'll cost a few thousand pounds to purchase the equipment, but the process is fairly quick. Resin casting, a bit smelly, bad chemicals, and you have to make the original model, so physical skills required to make the patterns, but equipment not expensive for small product runs, but consumables and resins expensive, and not that suitable for those who only want to design. 3d printing, to get quality, needs expensive machines, but mid priced materials, a fair bit of manual fettling of the results, and depending on the type of product, the printing process can be slow.  If you can't produce the object yourself, then there is a bit of tooing and froing, initially, to make sure the product is produced as you want it, but you can keep your hands clean, and concentrate on the interesting part of the development process.

 

If you can draw/ design properly , then etched kits is the easiest/quickest/cheapest to get to market, but most of the finished item relies on the skill of the designer and builder.  Basically, what you put in, you get out. If you are a kit builder who doesn't want to put much in, then resin/3d printing, is possibly easier to build to get a decent result, provide the design/moulding is accurate.

[raymw]

wrt the Coopercraft web site, I believe the major problem is the fact that this allows monies to be taken, but then refunds or sending of goods is ignored. The website in its present form should not exist. I believe that the designers/hosting company have a legal responsibility to take action. This most likely lies outside the remit of the The Information Commisioner's Office, but I believes that Action fraud (http://www.actionfraud.police.uk/fraud-az-advance-fee-fraud) would be able to take action, and hopefully ensure nobody else was misled in sending payments. Although it may be the case that no deliberate committing of fraud is taking place, by his neglect in rectifying the situation,  after many warnings, etc., it presents the same results to those making web payments.

[MJI]

Get the David Green one.

 

Can't find anything for it.

 

Need the little sliding doors in the side

[jonhall]

Can't find anything for it.

 

Need the little sliding doors in the side

 

These have been available from him during the troubled times, I asked him for a set at ExpoEM last year, and whilst he didn't have any with him, there were some on the stand at Railex a month or so later.

 

Jon

[Horsetan]

These have been available from him during the troubled times, I asked him for a set at ExpoEM last year, and whilst he didn't have any with him, there were some on the stand at Railex a month or so later...

Updating lists not a strong point?

[Joseph_Pestell]

Get the David Green one.

Do you mean Geen?