Cooper craft - Cautionary notes for customers - Its fate and thoughts on an alternative

[Enterprisingwestern]

Mike

 

You may well have said wise words, but there are some doing this. SEF & Branchlines with thew Nucast partnership, Phoenix paints taking over the NN kits and Carrs, C&L has just changed hands and recently heard of at least 2 other ranges being absorbed into existing businesses, Comet coaches are still available through a new owner

 

As for Coopercraft, the range of etches are being sold, some want the plastic kits (may not be enough to sustain the business though). But sadly as you have said have fallen into the hands of some who do not have the ability to maintain the ranges 

 

In this situation, I don't think the Phoenix analogy was a perticularly good one to make!, although you are quite correct.

 

Mike.

[Re6/6]

 Phoenix paints taking over the NN kits 

It seems that NNK development part of the business has become moribund.

[Jol Wilkinson]

I think the NNK range wasn't well documented/organised when they took it over. That isn't uncommon and without the former owners knowledge it is often difficult to get these ranges up and running again. 

 

I believe the same could be said for the ex Jidenco/Falcon Brass range that Dart Castings took over. It has taken Brassmasters some time to get the Finney 4mm range up and running again, so it isn't always as straightforward as it might seem.

[Horsetan]

I think the NNK range wasn't well documented/organised when they took it over. That isn't uncommon and without the former owners knowledge it is often difficult to get these ranges up and running again.....

 

It could equally be said that as established businesspeople, they went into it with their eyes open and hopefully did their due diligence, etc. If they didn't, perhaps they only have themselves to blame, although ultimately it's the unfulfilled customers who also lose out.

[melmoth]

It could equally be said that as established businesspeople, they went into it with their eyes open and hopefully did their due diligence, etc. If they didn't, perhaps they only have themselves to blame, although ultimately it's the unfulfilled customers who also lose out.

 

Yes, but - and please correct me if I'm wrong - didn't NNK only become available as a result of Alistair Rolfe's death? I don't think there was any opportunity for a proper handover of the business.

[Horsetan]

Yes, but - and please correct me if I'm wrong - didn't NNK only become available as a result of Alistair Rolfe's death? I don't think there was any opportunity for a proper handover of the business.

 

Sharman Wheels? DMR? Churchward?

[melmoth]

Sharman Wheels? DMR? Churchward?

 

Well, yes, fair enough there.

[chris p bacon]

Sharman Wheels? DMR? Churchward?

Have they ever given a reason for not re-introducing the ranges? 

[Horsetan]

Well, yes, fair enough there.

 

If you're ending up with a dud once, that may well be unlucky and that can happen to anyone, but twice or more begins to look like carelessness.

[Fat Controller]

I think the NNK range wasn't well documented/organised when they took it over. That isn't uncommon and without the former owners knowledge it is often difficult to get these ranges up and running again. 

 

I believe the same could be said for the ex Jidenco/Falcon Brass range that Dart Castings took over. It has taken Brassmasters some time to get the Finney 4mm range up and running again, so it isn't always as straightforward as it might seem.

From what I remember of a conversation with Alistair Rolfe at DEMU Showcase not long before his untimely death, he was having to do a great deal of work on the MTK range which he had taken over. I wouldn't have been surprised to find that this was still the case when Phoenix took over the range.

[Colin parks]

From what I remember of a conversation with Alistair Rolfe at DEMU Showcase not long before his untimely death, he was having to do a great deal of work on the MTK range which he had taken over. I wouldn't have been surprised to find that this was still the case when Phoenix took over the range.

I had several phone conversations with Alistair Rolfe in the spring of the year that he died.   

 

He gave me advice on the EMU I was intending to build and he was going to look out some chassis etches for me. Unfortunately, he became too ill to go into his attic to retrieve them.  He was quite forthcoming about his motive for buying the MTK range, which he said was for the range of castings, though he was replacing some of the patterns.  As for the Bulleid 2EPB kit, I asked how he produced the aluminium body shells for that kit and he indicated that these parts more or less hand-made.  It seems that the secret went with him, because Phoenix have not been able to produce these kits (to my knowledge).  He offered me the No Nonsense Kits business for £20,000. I declined the offer!

 

Perhaps some businesses are not that easily transferable to new owners.  They must have the necessary funds, skills, experience and commitment to produce not only an existing range of products but also involve themselves in product design and development too.  Many do not appreciate that being a model railway kit/component supplier does not just entail selling things, (or taking money for non-existent goods, as its seems in the case of Coopercraft), but making them as well. 

 

Colin 

Edited May 23, 2017 by Colin parks

[Jol Wilkinson]

Colin makes a very good point.

 

It can also be very difficult to "pick up" someone else's work, especially when trying to understand how/why they developed a design in a particular way. I have tried - and failed - to sort out another persons etch CAD artwork. So getting a range of products back into production isn't always that easy. 

 

So taking over a range where the "corporate knowledge" is no longer available is difficult.

 

In the case of PPP, much of the Sharman Wheels range tooling is rather past it, but why the DMR and Churchward ranges are taking so long to be reintroduced is a mystery. Personally I think they have totally underestimated the work involved.

[Michael Edge]

I had several phone conversations with Alistair Rolfe in the spring of the year that he died.   

 

He gave me advice on the EMU I was intending to build and he was going to look out some chassis etches for me. Unfortunately, he became too ill to go into his attic to retrieve them.  He was quite forthcoming about his motive for buying the MTK range, which he said was for the range of castings, though he was replacing some of the patterns.  As for the Bulleid 2EPB kit, I asked how he produced the aluminium body shells for that kit and he indicated that these parts more or less hand-made.  It seems that the secret went with him, because Phoenix have not been able to produce these kits (to my knowledge).  He offered me the No Nonsense Kits business for £20,000. I declined the offer!

 

Perhaps some businesses are not that easily transferable to new owners.  They must have the necessary funds, skills, experience and commitment to produce not only an existing range of products but also involve themselves in product design and development too.  Many do not appreciate that being a model railway kit/component supplier does not just entail selling things, (or taking money for non-existent goods, as its seems in the case of Coopercraft), but making them as well. 

 

Colin 

 

Alistair told me that the main reason he bought MTK was for the window press tools, most of the castings were rubbish. What he did manage to reintroduce had very little MTK in it and was very good, he also spent a large part of what turned out to be his last year building the baseboards for Carlisle.

[hayfield]

The discussion seems to have gone into 2 parallel directions

 

1 Taking over and maintaining a range

 

2 Taking over developing and maintaining a range

 

The former being in principal much easier

 

Then there is taking over someone else's work and working methods. Yes its up to the buyer to do due diligence on what he is buying, but there are many instances (not just in model railway circles) where either the seller has been hiding the true state of the company or household names just making a hash of things

[Jol Wilkinson]

John,

 

I don't think you can separate them, please look back at my post #900. I have assisted one 4mm kit producer for many years and my views are based on that experience. He knew the ranges he absorbed into his business as well as knowing the previous owners very well. Some products have been obtained through "exchange" deals with other suppliers, so that an ongoing business relationship exists. Further, he also seems to know what he is doing.

 

A range that is just maintained will slowly wither. A range that is developed will continue to attract new sales and new customers. Overall sales volume may not increase significantly, but will provide cash flow and the ability to continue marketing the whole range.

 

As we are seeing, just taking over a range is also no guarantee you can readily re-introduce it - which is more accurate than saying "keep it going". In theory, anything that Paul Dunn, PPP or ABS took over, Craftsman, Falcon Brass, the PC range of pre-printed side carriages, and probably quite a few other product ranges should still be available, but sadly aren't. Some still are available but haven't been developed, such as Stevenson Carriages (effectively still selling the 1980's Brian Badger range of LNWR carriage kits).

 

Jol

[hayfield]

Jol

 

Whilst you are quite correct in that saying proprietors like John, Dave etc take on a range and develop them, my thoughts (which could be wrong) were for someone who brought a range of products and made/kept them available.

 

For example the Airfix kits are still being sold by Dapol, very few is any new models have been released. I understand Airfix bought the old Kitmaster moulds, were they ever developed though ? 

[cctransuk]

Jol

 

Whilst you are quite correct in that saying proprietors like John, Dave etc take on a range and develop them, my thoughts (which could be wrong) were for someone who brought a range of products and made/kept them available.

 

For example the Airfix kits are still being sold by Dapol, very few is any new models have been released. I understand Airfix bought the old Kitmaster moulds, were they ever developed though ? 

 

Airfix and Dapol did release quite a few of the Kitmaster models - in fact, all of the ones for which the moulds were viable, I believe.

 

Some of the moulds were destroyed and some deteriorated during storage, to the point where they were unusable. Some may have been destroyed in the Dapol fire a good few years back.

 

The definitive history of Kitmaster can be found at http://www.kitmaster.org.uk/ and in http://www.kitmaster.org.uk/Book.htm .

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

[Jol Wilkinson]

Jol

 

Whilst you are quite correct in that saying proprietors like John, Dave etc take on a range and develop them, my thoughts (which could be wrong) were for someone who brought a range of products and made/kept them available.

 

For example the Airfix kits are still being sold by Dapol, very few is any new models have been released. I understand Airfix bought the old Kitmaster moulds, were they ever developed though ? 

John,

 

a valid point, also covered by John Isherwood.

 

However there is something of a difference between a business like Dapol and Airfix (now part of Hornby) and a much smaller, usually one man, supplier to the specialist end of the hobby. One obvious difference is the distribution network they have, their lower cost products, their appeal to the less skilled, beginners end of the market and their marketing "clout". The first kits most of us made were probably Airfix (or Keil Kraft for the outdoor types).

 

Hornby and Bachmann continue to introduce new products, usually followed by enthusiastic buying and much "frothing" here on RMweb, which surely confirms the benefits new additions to a manufacturers range. Other examples are iPhones, most brands of new German cars, etc. So I stand by my view that new products are important to any business in today's consumer driven age.

 

Had Paul Dunn been able to  produce the items he had taken over, then his business would continue, but not as strongly as if he were able to manufacture new items to meet peoples want's. As it is, that's all a pipe dream anyway and the only things we are likely to see available are the etched items, which are sourced outside.

 

Jol

[Mikkel]

Had Paul Dunn been able to  produce the items he had taken over, then his business would continue, but not as strongly as if he were able to manufacture new items to meet peoples want's. 

 

It seems he tried. These are his posts on RMweb. The earliest post starts here, and you can then work your way through the posts:

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?app=core&module=search&do=user_activity&mid=6328&search_app=forums&userMode=content&sid=fa1aa6afaa114caa5591cb28dda2cbf3&search_app_filters[forums][searchInKey]=&search_app_filters[forums][sortKey]=date&st=225

Edited May 24, 2017 by Mikkel

[hayfield]

John,

 

a valid point, also covered by John Isherwood.

 

However there is something of a difference between a business like Dapol and Airfix (now part of Hornby) and a much smaller, usually one man, supplier to the specialist end of the hobby. One obvious difference is the distribution network they have, their lower cost products, their appeal to the less skilled, beginners end of the market and their marketing "clout". The first kits most of us made were probably Airfix (or Keil Kraft for the outdoor types).

 

Hornby and Bachmann continue to introduce new products, usually followed by enthusiastic buying and much "frothing" here on RMweb, which surely confirms the benefits new additions to a manufacturers range. Other examples are iPhones, most brands of new German cars, etc. So I stand by my view that new products are important to any business in today's consumer driven age.

 

Had Paul Dunn been able to  produce the items he had taken over, then his business would continue, but not as strongly as if he were able to manufacture new items to meet peoples want's. As it is, that's all a pipe dream anyway and the only things we are likely to see available are the etched items, which are sourced outside.

 

Jol

 

 

Jol 

 

Totally agree, but what we need and have lost in the loco kit field is a number of entry level loco kits. In the past there were some low cost easy to build kits for those wishing to progress from building a plastic wagon or coach, to a loco

 

Wills (now SEF) still do the bodyline kits as did Keyser. The Tank locos should be an easy step up for this group. DJH I believe do an 0-4-0 diesel, sadly not enough is done to promote these, or the modeller jumps head first into an etched kit and most fail owing to the complexity of the kit. I guess this is perhaps where 3D kits may come into their own in the future. Just going over very old ground though and does not solve the problems of ranges dispersing

 

What I do find strange is that if you have something that you cannot work, which makes an item(s) others want and could be used by someone else to make such items, why not either sell the tools or enter a partnership to jointly provide said items. To me its common sense 

[raymw]

Rather than sit around moaning about the problems with Cooper Craft, on Monday I send this Dunn guy the pro forma "Letter before Small Claims Court claim" which can be found here: http://www.which.co.uk/consumer-rights/letter/letter-before-small-claims-court-claim

 

Outlay to date - a 2nd class stamp. He has 28 days to respond. We will see if anything happens.

 

Any response?

[brian777999]

1. I do not know if this has been mentioned earlier but Mousa Models have some resin MR wagon kits and more in the planning stages.

 

2. Surely with advances in technology it is easier and cheaper to produce the necessary plastic molds for polystyrene kits than it was prior to computers ?

Edited June 20, 2017 by brian777999

[Joseph_Pestell]

1. I do not know if this has been mentioned earlier but Mousa Models have some resin MR wagon kits and more in the planning stages.

 

2. Surely with advances in technology it is easier and cheaper to produce the necessary plastic molds for polystyrene kits than it was prior to computers ?

 

There was a spark eroder available at auction last week for next to nothing. I was tempted but I would not have a clue how the thing works. If anyone on here wants one, I will keep my eye open for another one.

[chris p bacon]

1. I do not know if this has been mentioned earlier but Mousa Models have some resin MR wagon kits and more in the planning stages.

 

2. Surely with advances in technology it is easier and cheaper to produce the necessary plastic molds for polystyrene kits than it was prior to computers ?

 

Without meaning to be too critical, there are more in planning than there are ever likely to be produced.   I know it's done to gauge interest but by now it's obvious that a lot aren't going to go into production in this lifetime.

[Compound2632]

1. I do not know if this has been mentioned earlier but Mousa Models have some resin MR wagon kits and more in the planning stages.

 

See my thread for my first build of one. I understand that Bill Bedford (Mousa) has been working with someone who models 1880s Midland Railway on producing these. The appearance of the ubiquitous D299 5-plank open, of which 60,000 were built between 1882 and 1900, making it the commonest single design of pre-grouping rolling stock, may have been helped along a bit by being prepared to take a punt on pre-ordering a dozen myself.