Cooper craft - Cautionary notes for customers - Its fate and thoughts on an alternative

[Ravenser]

We seem to have been ranting on about Coopercraft for ages.  Two observations:

 

1) We are a mighty civilised, or very timid, bunch in that he can rock up at shows and yet does not face any unpleasantries, harrassment etc.

 

2) But should he be invited to shows and do they limit him to selling for goods on display as opposed to taking orders to be delivered in some distant time?

 

I really do think shows should place such a restriction and even then the very presence is advertising which the trade should freeze where there is a history of non-delivery.

 

There may be some force in that . While I would not  in any way condone any kind of personal confrontation with him, it is a bit surprising that he continues to attend shows like any other bona fide trader . Possibly a polite contact with the organisers of shows he attends, expressing concern about the risk of not receiving goods paid for, might have some merit

 

I notice that he no longer attends Ally Pally

[Horsetan]

The problem with this discussion is that any action that customers take is likely, eventually, to lead to the demise of Coopercraft as a viable business. This is likely to result in his products being permanently unavailable.  As far as I can see this is not the outcome that most people who have commented here would want.

....and if no action is taken, that makes it viable, does it? It's not as if the products most wanted are available anyway, so doing nothing isn't really going to result in products reappearing. It's a circular argument.

[charliepetty]

The problem with this discussion is that any action that customers take is likely, eventually, to lead to the demise of Coopercraft as a viable business. This is likely to result in his products being permanently unavailable.  As far as I can see this is not the outcome that most people who have commented here would want.

 

I suggest you go to his stand with a receipt/evidence of your purchase and 'LOUDLY' demand a refund, if not take goods to the value of your purchase.  Be very loud though, asking for the exhibition managers assistance.

 

Charlie Petty

[Jol Wilkinson]

I'd agree with Bill B's comment except it seems more than likely the CC plastic kits that haven't been produced for some time won't ever become available again. For too long the same excuses have been used and any attempts to provide help seem to have been ignored.

 

The etched item's are manufactured by etchers who hold the tools, so production of those is independent of the moulding problems that he can't sort out.

Edited March 22, 2017 by Jol Wilkinson

[Edwardian]

Full marks to Mr Bedford for the improbable triumph of placing "Coopercraft" and "viable business" in the same sentence.  

[Jol Wilkinson]

Full marks to Mr Bedford for the improbable triumph of placing "Coopercraft" and "viable business" in the same sentence.

 

In the right hands it could be, as it was once.

[Colin_McLeod]

But it's not in the right hands.

[Horsetan]

In the right hands it could be, as it was once.

Nobody knows if he would agree to let it go to the right hands. Do those hands exist?

[Edwardian]

Nobody knows if he would agree to let it go to the right hands. Do those hands exist?

 

There was an offer of help, which I understand was sincere and credible.  It was declined.

 

I believe what is left of these ranges will whither to extinction in the cold dead hands of Coopercraft, which will not let go until the last remnants life has been squeezed out of them.

 

On the other hand, I could just be a hopeless pessimist.

[Siberian Snooper]

We seem to have been ranting on about Coopercraft for ages.  Two observations:

 

1) We are a mighty civilised, or very timid, bunch in that he can rock up at shows and yet does not face any unpleasantries, harrassment etc.

 

2) But should he be invited to shows and do they limit him to selling for goods on display as opposed to taking orders to be delivered in some distant time?

 

I really do think shows should place such a restriction and even then the very presence is advertising which the trade should freeze where there is a history of non-delivery.

 

I was an exhibitor at one show at which the layout was fairly close to the Coopercraft stand  and over the course of the weekend there were several very heated discussions about ordered and paid for, but not received kits, so he has had at least some harassment and unpleasantness from the buying public at a show, but still he continues to soldier on in the same old way.

[billbedford]

In the right hands it could be.

 

 

I'm not sure this is true any more. The mass market for kits sold through model shops has gone, and many of the best selling kits now have RTR equivalents.

[Joseph_Pestell]

I'm not sure this is true any more. The mass market for kits sold through model shops has gone, and many of the best selling kits now have RTR equivalents.

Very possibly true. Certainly the business model would need to change with more internet sales.

 

Difficult to justify the costs of new tooling, but in a case like this there should be some scope for existing kits sold at a much lower price than current RTR. I am thinking particularly of more common wagons -  perhaps sold in packs of 5.

[Jol Wilkinson]

I'm not sure this is true any more. The mass market for kits sold through model shops has gone, and many of the best selling kits now have RTR equivalents.

You  might well  be right Bill, but low cost, simple plastic wagon kits do offer an entry level way into model making. With CC (and currently Slaters) 4mm kits unobtainable, the opportunity for someone to pick a model relevant to their interests is diminished.

[jwealleans]

It's my belief he's missed a massive opportunity in not having the Slaters NER hoppers available on the back of Hornby's Q6.  I also suspect that if anyone in the new Hornby management is even half awake, that opportunity will pass him by permanently when they bring out their own.

[cctransuk]

It's my belief he's missed a massive opportunity in not having the Slaters NER hoppers available on the back of Hornby's Q6.  I also suspect that if anyone in the new Hornby management is even half awake, that opportunity will pass him by permanently when they bring out their own.

 

You are undoubtedly right - but as it is clear that his moulding equipment is non-functional, and he seems to be so short of funds that he is engaging in dishonest business practices, he really has not been in a position to take advantage of any opportunity that presents itself, if it involves plastic.

 

This continuing debate seems to be going nowhere - unless his circumstances change dramatically, or he has a miraculous change of attitude towards disposing of the moulds, we should accept that the plastic kit side of the operation is gone forever.

 

All the 'if onlys' in the world won't change the situation.

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

[Dunsignalling]

It's my belief he's missed a massive opportunity in not having the Slaters NER hoppers available on the back of Hornby's Q6.  I also suspect that if anyone in the new Hornby management is even half awake, that opportunity will pass him by permanently when they bring out their own.

Years ago, I made up a small batch of those for a friend and it was one of the most enjoyable wagon kits I ever built. Complex enough to be interesting but not frustrating.

 

I especially remember being very impressed with Slater's idea of providing bending jigs for the various handrails, moulded into the sprues. Ingenious. 

 

John

[Jol Wilkinson]

AFAIK, production of the Slater's kits did not pass to him. I believe it was a marketing agreement, in exchange for Slaters selling the CC 7mm kits. These may be the ones which do not have a "buy" link on the Slaters website (my knowledge of 7mm kits, especially GWR is very limited).

[Re6/6]

You are undoubtedly right - but as it is clear that his moulding equipment is non-functional, and he seems to be so short of funds that he is engaging in dishonest business practices, he really has not been in a position to take advantage of any opportunity that presents itself, if it involves plastic.

 

This continuing debate seems to be going nowhere - unless his circumstances change dramatically, or he has a miraculous change of attitude towards disposing of the moulds, we should accept that the plastic kit side of the operation is gone forever.

 

All the 'if onlys' in the world won't change the situation.

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

Totally agree John. Thirty one pages and nine months later nothing has changed or seems that it never will now.

 

Avoiding the 'legal' parts of the discussion of which my understanding is limited l would have thought that Paul's best course of action would be to take down his website which still gives the impression that 'plastic' stuff might be available 'in the future' and rebuild it around the Blacksmith/Mallard etches which are now readily available and are a very welcome source of that great range of kits from the 70s.

 

Also Bill B is quite right.

[Dunsignalling]

AFAIK, production of the Slater's kits did not pass to him. I believe it was a marketing agreement, in exchange for Slaters selling the CC 7mm kits. These may be the ones which do not have a "buy" link on the Slaters website (my knowledge of 7mm kits, especially GWR is very limited).

A year or so ago, I attempted to buy the kit for the MR grounded van body from CC and was told that it wasn't currently available as he didn't have the mould for the base. 

 

That implied he does have the moulds for the rest of it and, by extension, other Slater's 4mm wagons. 

 

John

[gismorail]

It's a shame about this situation as in the past I have built quite a few of these kits and had good results. If I were in the position were I had parted company with my hard earned cash and had no goods in return over a period of time I would be contacting the local Trading Standards department for advice and take out a small claims case against the guy no messing ........if what is written on this thread is true then the guy is a crook and should be brought to account ...with regard to the range and it's future it looks as though the future is not good and maybe after a few court cases the guy will have to sell the range to someone who would do a better job 

[Horsetan]

... maybe after a few court cases the guy will have to sell the range to someone who would do a better job

Equally likely that the whole lot will go to the grave with him.

[chris p bacon]

Equally likely that the whole lot will go to the grave with him.

Which is no different to the current situation.

 

Either someone approaches him about passing/selling on what he has or they're just forgotten about and he's reported to Trading Standards about his website.  I'm not a fan of the programmes but he's a prime candidate for  'Rogue Trader' as he takes money with no means or intent of actually supplying anything. 

[hayfield]

Getting a judgment against someone's the easy part. Getting them to pay up, especially if it is for relatively small sums is very much harder. And getting them to change their business practices is a whole different ball game.

 

Then send in the sheriffs !!! 

[hayfield]

Thanks, didn't know that and you're absolutely right. Interesting that as well as the left-leaning papers, even the Telegraph still refers to him as "Paypal founder" when they mention his support for Trump, when his links to Payal are now irrelevant. It's lazy reporting and my inattentive reading led me into the trap. Thanks for the correction - though I would be careful with the term "self-righteous" - it's often used by the morally lazy to attack those who are worried by the new fascism. 

 

Seems like it's safe to cross PP off my sh*tlist? 

 

 

I am more worried about the growing band of self righteous peddling their thoughts on a model railway forum, what has this, PayPal or its founder got to do with this thread which is about availability of model railway products? certainly won't bring back Coopercraft products

 

Whilst I will keep away from the mail order side of this company, I have in the past and if I can in the future will continue to buy products from shows, who knows it may even help save the range if others did the same. Sorry rant over, its just that whilst I cannot condone the mail order issues all I see is a small trader trying to keep a range afloat,

[cctransuk]

I am more worried about the growing band of self righteous peddling their thoughts on a model railway forum, what has this, PayPal or its founder got to do with this thread which is about availability of model railway products? certainly won't bring back Coopercraft products

 

Whilst I will keep away from the mail order side of this company, I have in the past and if I can in the future will continue to buy products from shows, who knows it may even help save the range if others did the same. Sorry rant over, its just that whilst I cannot condone the mail order issues all I see is a small trader trying to keep a range afloat,

 

..... but unfortunately not even prepared to update his website to reflect what he can actually provide.

 

Now that smacks of dishonesty and certainly does no encourage me, (and I suspect many others), to support him in any way whatsoever.

 

There is even an argumant that, if it were possible to organise a total boycott of his products, he might just be forced to sell to someone who could competently take the products forward.

 

..... or at least throw in the towel and take down his (arguably fraudulent) website; thereby saving any more unwary potential customers from having to wave their money goodbye!

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.