Cooper craft - Cautionary notes for customers - Its fate and thoughts on an alternative

[Roy Langridge]

I was surprised when Slaters sold off the 4mm side of their business. It did make me wonder at the time why they would do that.

That is my worry and why I raised 3D printing. I don't think that the market that some posters see really exists. If 3D printing is technically viable (which I think the answer is yes) then I believe people who want particular items are going to have to learn to do the design themselves, or scratch build.

 

As a related aside. In Alton not far from the model shop there is a secondhand book shop. I don't know if the same lady who ran it when I worked in Alton 12 years ago runs it now, but she told me that it made a loss, but it was subsidised by her husband's income. He saw it as her hobby and the subsidy was his expenditure on her hobby. Perhaps some kit manufacturers were run in the same way?

 

Roy

Edited January 19, 2017 by Roy Langridge

[Dunsignalling]

 

I do wonder that a successful company such as Parkside hasn't in the past picked up Slaters etc when they came on the market. Could be they just weren't interested or that the product just wasn't viable in the first place, hence the sale.

That is a thought that occurred to me at the time.

 

Slater's will have known their historic level of sales achieved by each kit and, if many of the 4mm range had been in decline, it could have been a significant factor influencing their decision to concentrate their energies on O Gauge and SM32.

 

Parkside didn't, and still don't, produce very many 4mm kits of pre-1923 prototypes so the Slater's range should complement their own rather well.  If they were ever offered it (and it would seem rather odd if they weren't) we'll probably never know if their inaction was down to a simple lack of interest in the products, a value judgement, or just timing.

 

John

[modelpara]

I have set up a business with a long term aim of doing a rapido but that is long term as costs per loco of molds are about £250,000 each.

 

I cannot see wagons being a whole lot cheaper.

[JeremyC]

That is a thought that occurred to me at the time.

 

Slater's will have known their historic level of sales achieved by each kit and, if many of the 4mm range had been in decline, it could have been a significant factor influencing their decision to concentrate their energies on O Gauge and SM32.

 

Parkside didn't, and still don't, produce very many 4mm kits of pre-1923 prototypes so the Slater's range should complement their own rather well. If they were ever offered it (and it would seem rather odd if they weren't) we'll probably never know if their inaction was down to a simple lack of interest in the products, a value judgement, or just timing.

 

John

It is noticable that in recent years Parkside Dundas have introduced very few 4mm scale kits and have like Slaters concentrated on 7mm. I would suggest that the RTR manufacturers have seriously damaged the viability market of the market for 4mm kits.

If someone was to obtain the Coopercraft moulds would they need to have moulding facilities or could they get a Company like PD to do the moulding for them? (I do understand from Ian Kirk's comments that the capacity of the machines needed might be a problem). There would be a cost, but there wouldn't be the capital outlay for machines or premises.

Edited January 19, 2017 by JeremyC

[Edwardian]

Another factor to consider is physical space. I live in London -I can imagine my wife's reaction is a small injection moulding machine turned up...

 

You can stick it in our outbuildings, but it's a bit far for you to come when someone orders a 5-plank!

[Horsetan]

.....I would suggest that the RTR manufacturers have seriously damaged the viability of the market for 4mm kits.....

 

This seems a fair point, though the RTR people can't cover everything. The wider philosophical question is whether any kit (whether wagon, coach or engine) is viable in 4mm scale.

[jjnewitt]

Many modellers would love to be able to work within their hobby, as many do. If you did do that would it still be an enjoyable hobby or just work ?

 

I personally think there is plenty of room for cottage industry style of business both part and full time, as there are many keeping the hobby going.

The problems start when additional employees are required and or business premises needed. Rather than taking the next step, it seems a giant leap forward many cannot achieve

I guess the small businesses are part subsidised by the proprietor either having a day job and or working from home, which is how many small farms survive/are operated abroad

 

I think if you getto the stage where you need to employ other people you are doing very, very well! I'd say that the majority of small businesses within the model railway world are subsidised in some way, though mostly through someone giving their time for nothing and we are blessed that so many people are willing to do so. I think most of the products and ranges that are outside of the RTR world would simply not exist if they were produced on a purely comercial basis. My range of products would not exist if I expected a return on my time to draw up the artwork as I've never paid me a penny for that and nor did I ever expect to. Given that I'm hardly likely to produce things that I don't want personally. That would be more like philanthropy than business.

 

Being able to work partly within the field of their hooby is wonderful but I it is harder at times to deal with some of the b**l s**t that you have to cope with, especially when it comes to people whinging about prices when things are subsidised in some way already...

 

In terms of how all this relates to Coopercraft I think the only really viable future for the injection moulded items in the range is for someone to approach Coppercraft and take them on, assuming the moulds are good. Recreating the moulds from scratch is a non starter unless someone is prepared to invest an decent amount of money which they are unlikely to ever see a return on. 3D printing is fine except that it is still very much a prototyping technology not a production one which is why Bill Bedford gets his cast in resin. They're expensive to begin with and if you expect a return on your time to produce the artwork for it then things are going to start to get pretty pricy which obviously limits the market...

 

Justin

[Jol Wilkinson]

You haven't looked at mine, Parkside's injection moulded finish is no better than what is achievable with certain 3D Prints. The problem is the per unit cost is higher than what modellers seem to think things 'should' cost. 3D printed wagons cost is similar to the cost of etched with a considerably lower investment in time and construction. I'm already working on a replacement for the 1907 7-Plank end door wagon as I'm sick of bodging up Slaters bodies costing over £20 a pop (if I can find one!) and Cambrian Models underframes together with mediocre results. 

 

 

You are right, I haven't looked at yours in the flesh, so to speak. Unfortunately nothing Edwardian LNWR to attract me.

 

Your comments about cost are very valid, but remember that etched kits are usually produced commercially where the supplier buys in the etches that he has designed from an industrial etcher. If you do the same with high quality 3D prints, adding the rest of the parts that may not be 3D  produced, then the cost will be considerably higher.

 

AFAIK, the moulds for Slaters kits are still with Slaters and it is the contractual dispute with Mr CooperCraft  that is keeping them off the market. I could be wrong of course.

[Edwardian]

 

it is the contractual dispute with Mr CooperCraft  that is keeping them off the market.

 

Bet you the price of an injection moulding machine that I could sort that out. 

 

There are not many things I am any good at, but I'm really, really good at that!

Edited January 19, 2017 by Edwardian

[Ian Kirk]

Gentlemen,

 

If only I were ten years/twenty or more  younger......      This discussion has thrown up so many business opportunities. If I was still young and hungry the new wagon tooling would be cutting as we speak. However if I was young and hungry I might have been buying tooling instead of selling it and who knows might have some of what is now Coopercraft (just to get it back on topic) still that is now water under the bridge.

 

When I started, plastic moulding was seen as "big boys" territory and only viable for hundreds of thousands of items. This was because of the cost of tooling and was thought to put it out of reach of  the small scale model railway market. By doing our own tooling and production small runs to fit the small market became possible.   Businesses can start on a shoestring.  The Westwater and Kirk N gauge wagon kits (produced initially to provide British outline wagons for an Exhibition layout at a time when the only commercial N goods stock was repaints of European) initial working capital was my last months salary from the RAF  The moulds were produced on a modified Myford Lathe and I built my own hand operated moulding machine - the ram that forced the plastic into the moulds was made from the steering rack of a Triumph Herald. 

 

If the current "modern" production methods are too costly then perhaps the next generation of potential business men need to look at ways of making them cheaper.  Starting again injection moulding is probably just as difficult now. THe standard of (automatic) toolmaking which we have come to expect on the RTR side mostly from China etc. would be almost impossible to emulate without hugely expensive machinery (I think).Anything new would I think be compared with this.  What is possible though is to manufacture from existing tooling where potential customers are it would seem content to accept "hand made" tooling almost as a "heritage" thing. Unless someone is greedy these can be very economically priced as the production costs for injection moulding are not high.

 

Saving other ranges is important too. The last generation are now getting to a "certain age"  Adrian is unwell and I don't know what he plans. Cambrian are looking to retire I believe and Richard at Parkside was at school with me (which is how he joined me ) and is therefore the same age and now looking to sell up and retire.  I don't know if the customer base however enthusiastic can help here. Younger people taking over is what is needed but that could take capital and of course you need the "right" people taking over or else it could be another disaster like this. Even selling to a suitable person is no guarantee (I did) but it can then be sold on......

 

Lots of ranges have come and gone over the years and I suppose we just have to learn to live without them. My first teenage scale modelling depended heavily on parts from ERG and Hamblings now long gone then Kitmaster with the really useful Mk1 coaches........  sic in transit Gloria mundi           I suspect that I will just have to add my 4mm coach range to the list.

 

 

best wishes,

 

Ian

[Coach bogie]

 The wider philosophical question is whether any kit (whether wagon, coach or engine) is viable in 4mm scale.

 

The greatest risk to the cottage industry is not knowing what the competition is up to. Think of the many hours of research and CAD drawing, after a full days work with the day job only to find your pet project is going to be covered by someone else, at a fraction of the price as an out of the box rtr. 

 

Fact not fiction, it has happened. It has also resulted in future ideas being cancelled as the risk is too great. 

 

Mike Wiltshire

[Jol Wilkinson]

The wider philosophical question is whether any kit (whether wagon, coach or engine) is viable in 4mm scale.

 

They are, but not with the sort of infrastructure costs that companies like Bachmann are faced with.

 

I will say it again, most of the Small Suppliers that we who make models from kits rely upon on started in a small way. Usually that was to produce a model that they wanted and no one else made (or at least to an acceptable standard). So what is to stop anyone having a go themselves. We are not talking about setting up a business in the "normal" way, but making an large investment in your time and a small one in financial outlay. Small that is in terms of several hundred, not several thousand pounds.

 

Bet you the price of an injection moulding machine that I could sort that out. 

 

There are not many things I am any good at, but I'm really, really good at that!

 

That depends on whether both parties are now inclined to find a solution, and at what cost on top of your fees. Wars may have been fought over less.

[Edwardian]

 

That depends on whether both parties are now inclined to find a solution, and at what cost on top of your fees. Wars may have been fought over less.

 

Depends upon a number of factors, but delivering a commercial solution for clients in disputes is something I have been regularly achieving for over 20 years. It may be the only field of human endeavour in which I profess expertise, but profess it I do!    

[sharris]

 

I do wonder that a successful company such as Parkside hasn't in the past picked up Slaters etc when they came on the market. Could be they just weren't interested or that the product just wasn't viable in the first place, hence the sale.

 

I'm not sure what the timeline of Ratio going to Peco was, but now Peco have the Ratio stuff, it would be fitting if the Slaters kits ended up there too with the MR wagons complementing their LNWR kits. The old Slaters 6 wheel Clayton carriages would sit well with the Ratio MR carriages too - that would be quite a nice little pre-grouping collection (well, for those of us fancying the LNWR and MR anyway!).

[Mike Riley]

I'm not sure what the timeline of Ratio going to Peco was, but now Peco have the Ratio stuff, it would be fitting if the Slaters kits ended up there too with the MR wagons complementing their LNWR kits. The old Slaters 6 wheel Clayton carriages would sit well with the Ratio MR carriages too - that would be quite a nice little pre-grouping collection (well, for those of us fancying the LNWR and MR anyway!).

 

I don't think that Ratio have expanded the range of coach and wagon kits for some years, though they have introduced new building kits.  Maybe Peco don't see rolling stock kits as a profitable part of the business.

[raymw]

The thing is, you have to be model makers, not model buyers with 'wish lists'. At the least you have to have a 3d sort of visualization, how to convert 2D drawings/indistinct photos into a scale 3d rendition. Then you have to have some assessment of the market needs. As always, make stuff that folk want at a price they can afford. So, you 'do the drawings' for your most wanted item, say 100hours of work for free, then what do you charge for 100hours work for something you don't want, but others do? At the age you've acquired the skill, you lose the will. There are ways you can muddle through, borrowing machine time at your day job place of work, or not charge for your labour, but if sales grow, then it is unlikely that you will cope as a one man band. It's evolution.

[chris p bacon]

Here's a thought.

 

There are obviously some here who make their own items and are willing to share (castings, CAD drawings etc) When something is available put something to that effect in your sig strip at the bottom or open a thread making it available, I'll probably put something in my own thread for anything I produce, as it's only people looking at GN who might be interested.........More moulds curing as I type.....

[Clearwater]

The thing is, you have to be model makers, not model buyers with 'wish lists'. At the least you have to have a 3d sort of visualization, how to convert 2D drawings/indistinct photos into a scale 3d rendition. Then you have to have some assessment of the market needs. As always, make stuff that folk want at a price they can afford. So, you 'do the drawings' for your most wanted item, say 100hours of work for free, then what do you charge for 100hours work for something you don't want, but others do? At the age you've acquired the skill, you lose the will. There are ways you can muddle through, borrowing machine time at your day job place of work, or not charge for your labour, but if sales grow, then it is unlikely that you will cope as a one man band. It's evolution.

I think there's another stage in converting a 3D image into its component parts in a form that can be assembled into a kit. I suspect that is a bit harder than it sounds

 

David

[sp1]

Here's a thought.

 

There are obviously some here who make their own items and are willing to share (castings, CAD drawings etc) When something is available put something to that effect in your sig strip at the bottom or open a thread making it available, I'll probably put something in my own thread for anything I produce, as it's only people looking at GN who might be interested.........More moulds curing as I type.....

Here's another thought.....

Sell the moulds - once you have set up to make moulds for yourself I would guess it's easy enough to run off extra sets. Obviously you would have to factor in materials and time.

 

Once you have moulds : is anyone able to give a rough idea of what, say, a body for a van or open wagon would cost in materials? (Here I am guessing than for an open wagon you would have to thin (file?) the sides after casting (at the top - meaning the wagon would have to be loaded) or sheet them. Possibly you would need also to angle the corners to fix the pieces together unless cast in a block. After that just source/ make an underframe (and roof where appropriate).......

[Jol Wilkinson]

Most of the "commercial" suppliers have their castings produced professionally. In most cases the casters make as many castings as the mould will produce and you have to buy the batch, usually 70 - 80 pieces. In general they get much better results than DIY casters.

 

Cold cured moulds are relatively cheap, so rather than sell the moulds, you would be more likely to sell the "master" and the intellectual rights to the design.

 

The moulded model is only part of the finished kit. Mousa Models wagon or van kits with resin cast "bodies"  also have etched sprung underframes, a moulded sprue with brake gear, etc. turned steel buffer heads and springs, 3D printed buffer bodies, suspension spring wire. Add a box and possibly instructions and it becomes clear that this is more than "simply" designing a 3D body for a pattern.

 

So you have extra parts at extra cost, plus your time in designing/producing/procuring/organising all these items. You will need to recover your outlay and pay yourself a wage for doing all this. It's not all that difficult - it's what many of our Small Suppliers do - but it is more involved than most people seem to realise.

[webbcompound]

 

The moulded model is only part of the finished kit. Mousa Models wagon or van kits with resin cast "bodies"  also have etched sprung underframes, a moulded sprue with brake gear, etc. turned steel buffer heads and springs, 3D printed buffer bodies, suspension spring wire. Add a box and possibly instructions and it becomes clear that this is more than "simply" designing a 3D body for a pattern.

 

So you have extra parts at extra cost, plus your time in designing/producing/procuring/organising all these items. You will need to recover your outlay and pay yourself a wage for doing all this. It's not all that difficult - it's what many of our Small Suppliers do - but it is more involved than most people seem to realise.

Of course since we are proposing selling to modellers, and they have quite personal views on the other components they want to use, often replacing the ones in a kit, you could just sell the shell and leave the buyer to source the rest, cheaper and simpler.

[Dunsignalling]

Of course since we are proposing selling to modellers, and they have quite personal views on the other components they want to use, often replacing the ones in a kit, you could just sell the shell and leave the buyer to source the rest, cheaper and simpler.

I'd think anything that makes successful use of your product reliant upon the output of unrelated suppliers is asking for trouble. 

 

Moreover, al lot of wagon kits receive no more modification than the fitting of metal buffer heads either during construction or soon after, when the plastic ones snap off.

 

John

[Compound2632]

The Slater's 4mm wagon kits do have their limitations - particularly the Midland ones which have some minor detail errors; the Gloucester POs are better. That said, I got into pre-group modelling in the 1980s largely because these kits were available. It's the 6-wheel Midland coach kits I lament more! But at least on the Midland wagon side, it would seem that 3D resin printing is coming to the rescue! Judging by the LNWR wagons already available, prices may be over twice the prices quoted for the Slater's kits on the Coopercraft website but would be comparable to ebay prices! Based on my experience of the Mousa kits I've built (not yet a 3D-printed one), compared to an injection moulded plastic kit, they're almost half-way to ready-to-run!

 

Usual disclaimer: no connection other than as a satisfied customer.

Edited January 19, 2017 by Compound2632

[sp1]

I'd think anything that makes successful use of your product reliant upon the output of unrelated suppliers is asking for trouble.

 

Moreover, al lot of wagon kits receive no more modification than the fitting of metal buffer heads either during construction or soon after, when the plastic ones snap off.

 

John

I'm not so sure about that. There are quite a number of people selling 3D printed wagon bodies in various scales now. By definition anyone wanting to complete these would have to source the extra parts. I think that's called modelling....

[Clearwater]

Of course since we are proposing selling to modellers, and they have quite personal views on the other components they want to use, often replacing the ones in a kit, you could just sell the shell and leave the buyer to source the rest, cheaper and simpler.

As ever, there is a spectrum of views. I'd suggest some kit builders, particularly the less experienced or/and the time poor, prefer to receive a kit with everything in it rather than have to then call three other suppliers for pieces to finish it. For some,that cross sourcing and research to find the 'best' part may be part of the enjoyment

 

David