Horsetan Posted January 23, 2017 Share Posted January 23, 2017 The hobby has become like football or other sports. Lots of supporters who think they know how to play, coach, manage, etc. better than those actually doing it. Because they'll never get (or take) the opportunity to do so, they can never be shown to be wrong. ....and that's the whole beauty of the thing. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edwardian Posted January 23, 2017 Author Share Posted January 23, 2017 Supporters, without whom, the game itself would not exist! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
modelpara Posted January 23, 2017 Share Posted January 23, 2017 Supporters, without whom, the game itself would not exist! Same with the game of modelling Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Clive Mortimore Posted January 23, 2017 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 23, 2017 Alas China isn't the answer to everything. First it was Japan then the wages got to costly, Then Korea......and ditto Now China and wages are already rising. There has been an attempt from India and that company got well and truly burned with abominable quality control and poor quality overall. Khris Hi Khris Isn't that one of the realities of capitalism. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edwardian Posted January 23, 2017 Author Share Posted January 23, 2017 Hi Khris Isn't that one of the realities of capitalism. And here's another one: Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold 81C Posted January 23, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 23, 2017 I think this thread needs locking it's started to attract the wrong sort talking about football, what the h3ll has that got to do with Cooper-Craft. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edwardian Posted January 23, 2017 Author Share Posted January 23, 2017 I think this thread needs locking it's started to attract the wrong sort talking about football, what the h3ll has that got to do with Cooper-Craft. Well, that's certainly not cricket. I think broadly it has developed into a useful discussion on the implications of buying or starting a kit business. Of course, it is always possible that eventually some concrete information regarding one or more of the ranges that have disappeared into the Coopercraft Fundament might emerge. Well, you never know. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
modelpara Posted January 23, 2017 Share Posted January 23, 2017 (edited) Who would be interested in becoming a part of a venture that is intended to safeguard old ranges and from the revenue from those produce newer ranges either kit based or model based. It is intended that no one individual would make a wage from the venture although (once legalities are clarified) discounts on purchases by trustees / members etc could be looked at. But remember the profits on sales are intended to be ploughed back into the venture to allow funds for creating new models and replacing / updating tools on old models or indeed acquiring further ranges at risk of disappearing. The idea behind trustees is to ensure that there is a long term future and that someone passing away / leaving / falling ill does not sound a death knell to the venture and that it will remain in existence for years to come. One person I have spoken to has suggested loans rather than shares be the way to go and that is something I will leave them to advise more on! Already I have two people contact me about the idea who can help in their own unique ways. Anyone else want to be involved? Edited January 23, 2017 by modelpara 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Joseph_Pestell Posted January 23, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 23, 2017 (edited) Who would be interested in becoming a part of a venture that is intended to safeguard old ranges and from the revenue from those produce newer ranges either kit based or model based. It is intended that no one individual would make a wage from the venture although (once legalities are clarified) discounts on purchases by trustees / members etc could be looked at. But remember the profits on sales are intended to be ploughed back into the venture to allow funds for creating new models and replacing / updating tools on old models or indeed acquiring further ranges at risk of disappearing. The idea behind trustees is to ensure that there is a long term future and that someone passing away / leaving / falling ill does not sound a death knell to the venture and that it will remain in existence for years to come. One person I have spoken to has suggested loans rather than shares be the way to go and that is something I will leave them to advise more on! Already I have two people contact me about the idea who can help in their own unique ways. Anyone else want to be involved? Interesting idea. Debentures are a form of share which is also a loan. Getting several modellers to agree on which ranges to save and how much to pay for them could be a bit like herding cats. Edited January 23, 2017 by Joseph_Pestell 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clearwater Posted January 23, 2017 Share Posted January 23, 2017 I'd suggest that any loan note would need to have the ability to roll up interest if there was insufficient cash to pay the coupon. Also, you'll need to think about transferability issues. What happens when someone wants to sell, or dies and their estate is wound up? Equally, how does the capital structure accommodate new people investing over time? All quite complex and I'd suggest needs a decent lawyer. It's one of the reasons why I don't like crowdfunding as a concept David Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
aberdare Posted January 23, 2017 Share Posted January 23, 2017 I have always enjoyed reading the various Coopercraft threads over the years as I would like to see it survive as well as many other ranges because all my models are kit or scratchbuilt. It was interesting to see thee word 'fantasy' being used as I have often had that fantasy that with my experience (35+ years in plastic moulding) I could rescue such a company as long as I had unlimited funds to throw at it, this would then ensure it was there for years to come. But in reality even if I had the money I would be very reluctant to invest in something that would seem to need a lot of new moulds and machines. With regard to the machines the ones shown earlier had a vertical injection unit and having had a look at the runners on my kits they were moulded with a horizontal unit as seen in CCs home page, just for the record the machine is a Boy and the one behind possibly an early Arburg? The latter are definitely still producing machines but I'm not sure about the former though they were still doing so a few years ago. For anyone considering making new tooling I would be looking at a bolster with interchangeable inserts to minimise costs and keep change-over times to a minimum. Succesful Injection moulding is not easy and the whole business should not be taken lightly for those wanting to invest in it. Though I do not have any time (full time carer) or money to invest I would be happy to help if I can as I would like to see the range survive. Jim 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
modelpara Posted January 23, 2017 Share Posted January 23, 2017 I'd suggest that any loan note would need to have the ability to roll up interest if there was insufficient cash to pay the coupon. Also, you'll need to think about transferability issues. What happens when someone wants to sell, or dies and their estate is wound up? Equally, how does the capital structure accommodate new people investing over time? All quite complex and I'd suggest needs a decent lawyer. It's one of the reasons why I don't like crowdfunding as a concept David There is one member on here who is a lawyer advising me and I completely miss understood what he was saying, he's talking about a different method of financing which is making my head hurt already But rest assured something will happen if there is sufficient interest in people putting their hands in their pockets to match their mouths / fingers! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
raymw Posted January 23, 2017 Share Posted January 23, 2017 A bunch of folk, sharing a small production run, is different than a fully fledged retail situation, and is quite doable, since hopefully you will accept each other's shortcomings, but I'm not sure, if further down the road, it will work. Most partnerships fail, sooner or later. Anyway, I hope you actually start by realistically costing the enterprise. I don't think plastic injection moulding is the way to start, if you have no idea about that business. Not only is it the cost of the machine, but the cost of decent premises with a reasonable environment, temperature, humidity, etc., 3ph electricity supply, water,, and storage /sorting arrangements for the vast quantities of product you will generate, and the boredom after the novelty wears off. That will mean packaging for the final product, too. That is the road that the current cc went down, you'll end up the same! Probably, the easiest start would be in etched brass/ns. All you need is to invest the time in learning how to draw for etched kit construction, and relatively cheaply you can get the 'tooling' and etches produced by experts in that field. Looking at a cc 7mm wagon kit, just half a dozen sprues in a polly bag with a photocopied instruction sheet, i guess it would have cost about six quid ten years ago, the same item is now over £30.00 from Slaters, but includes sprung buffers, couplings and wheels, and I expect it's in a pretty box. Have you any idea of cost of boxes, and storage requirements, etc? So, if you do etched brass, you'll have a way to go to catch up with the others doing this, and will have a struggle to get market share. So, I think you have to do it as a fun thing, and not worry about retail. A simple sum - say you can make wagons for a quid each. You've got, say £10,000.00 from five 'investors' (£ 2K each?) are they all wanting 2000 wagons of the same type? Anyway, do your own sums. Maybe you sell a few thousand at a fiver each. How do you apportion the payment? More goes to the guy who runs the machine, or the guy that does the selling/whoever. Have fun! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Joseph_Pestell Posted January 23, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 23, 2017 Good news. And there are several RMWebbers with technical experience in injection-moulding. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clearwater Posted January 23, 2017 Share Posted January 23, 2017 There is one member on here who is a lawyer advising me and I completely miss understood what he was saying, he's talking about a different method of financing which is making my head hurt already But rest assured something will happen if there is sufficient interest in people putting their hands in their pockets to match their mouths / fingers! Thanks - that's useful to understand. As someone put it to me he other day, it's wise to plan for divorcee at the outset! I'm happy to join any discussion around this. Professionally, I'm a financier hence the questions I posed. David 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted January 23, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 23, 2017 I might have missed it (not unlikely in this thread) but are there a couple of basic questions to ask, viz - 1. Are the former Coopercraft tools actually usable or do they show signs of deterioration, and 2. Are they for sale (at whatever price)? All well and good looking to establish a concern of some sort to protect the next lot to decide to retire and sell up but coming back to the title of the thread is there actually any mileage in looking to get the tools back into use? The last Coopercraft kit (off a secondhand stall) I added to my small stockpile showed considerably more flash than the early runs of these kits had - so are the tools still fully usable? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
modelpara Posted January 23, 2017 Share Posted January 23, 2017 Good news. And there are several RMWebbers with technical experience in injection-moulding. Agreed, so far we have one person with some space in a premises that could be utilised (although turning it into an insulated room to fence off from existing operations would be good), one lawyer and one person who could help with GN drawings and sketches for future developments talking to each other (in a way). Yes someone with expertise in injection moulding, etching, CAD etc (separately or in one individual) would be good and not to mention the current Mr Cooper craft coming on board and it can happen. That said I suspect that some of the old molds will be life expired or will need updating to current standards so rest assured that I don't think this is going to be just a case of acquire the old stuff and print away. Even if everything falls into place in the next few days it could still be several months if not a year or more before anything rolls off a production line. Shane Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Joseph_Pestell Posted January 23, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 23, 2017 A bunch of folk, sharing a small production run, is different than a fully fledged retail situation, and is quite doable, since hopefully you will accept each other's shortcomings, but I'm not sure, if further down the road, it will work. Most partnerships fail, sooner or later. Anyway, I hope you actually start by realistically costing the enterprise. I don't think plastic injection moulding is the way to start, if you have no idea about that business. Not only is it the cost of the machine, but the cost of decent premises with a reasonable environment, temperature, humidity, etc., 3ph electricity supply, water,, and storage /sorting arrangements for the vast quantities of product you will generate, and the boredom after the novelty wears off. That will mean packaging for the final product, too. That is the road that the current cc went down, you'll end up the same! Probably, the easiest start would be in etched brass/ns. All you need is to invest the time in learning how to draw for etched kit construction, and relatively cheaply you can get the 'tooling' and etches produced by experts in that field. Looking at a cc 7mm wagon kit, just half a dozen sprues in a polly bag with a photocopied instruction sheet, i guess it would have cost about six quid ten years ago, the same item is now over £30.00 from Slaters, but includes sprung buffers, couplings and wheels, and I expect it's in a pretty box. Have you any idea of cost of boxes, and storage requirements, etc? So, if you do etched brass, you'll have a way to go to catch up with the others doing this, and will have a struggle to get market share. So, I think you have to do it as a fun thing, and not worry about retail. A simple sum - say you can make wagons for a quid each. You've got, say £10,000.00 from five 'investors' (£ 2K each?) are they all wanting 2000 wagons of the same type? Anyway, do your own sums. Maybe you sell a few thousand at a fiver each. How do you apportion the payment? More goes to the guy who runs the machine, or the guy that does the selling/whoever. Have fun! The person who mentioned "fun" earlier was being ironic (and paraphrasing a well-known Python sketch). Irony is often lost on web forums. I know, from having done it professionally, that packing kit components is no fun at all. But that is not to say that one can't come up with a viable business model for an enterprise as outlined. I would agree that the main issue may be having suitable premises at a cost which can be sustained by the business. And the capital requirement is not just tooling but being able to hold sufficient stock that one can justify viable lengths of production run. Quite often, modelmaking businesses have been tied to a larger business doing similar products. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadow Posted January 23, 2017 Share Posted January 23, 2017 (edited) As someone who knows nothing about mould making I would like to ask the following (possibly simple/stupid/obvious) questions. 1 How do you make a mould? 2 Are they hand made/engraved? 3 Milled user CNC or something similar? 4 Could you take an export from a 3D CAD package and CNC direct from that? 5 What material/metal are they made from? 6 What sort of plastic is used for injecting into the moulds? Thought of another, any pictures! Thanks in advance for any answers. It's just the engineer in me is curious! Dave Edited January 23, 2017 by Shadow Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Enterprisingwestern Posted January 23, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 23, 2017 I'm putting my actions where my mouth is and I have reached out to one range that I feel cannot disappear into the night (and in all likelihood will be easier to resurrect than Coppercraft) in the hope that the funds from sale from that range will help to revive Coopercraft. They would of course end up under a different name but at least if it all works out they would still be available. Except that at least 60% of the income will come from newly produced kits so whoever takes on the 'legacy' ranges will need all the mould making skills needed to produce new moulds. Of course if someone had the necessary skills and capital to invest they would be better off, in general, starting from scratch. With one or two exceptions old model ranges have been poisoned chalices to whoever has taken them over. Those exceptions have almost always depended on the seller being willing to offer the buyer resources and even training to ensure a satisfactory take over. One of the problems when taking over an existing range is the fact that, upon hearing of the imminent demise/changeover, a lot of people stock up with their next 10 years requirements of said items, therefore ensuring a dearth of sales for the new owner. I believe this happened in the case of the Alan Gibson locomotive kits. Mike. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steamport Southport Posted January 23, 2017 Share Posted January 23, 2017 I think people need to take their model railway heads off and look at the other parts of the model spectrum. Plastic kits aren't dead or dying out. In actual fact they are more prevalent than ever. Look in any of the Sci Fi or model shops and you can get a bewildering range of models. Much more than you could get in the heyday of Airfix. They aren't cheap either. But they sell. Airfix are remastering many of their old kits and are now scanning prototypes for new state of the art models after being left behind for years. I also don't think that the hobby is dying out because everyone is getting old. I used to go to exhibitions in the 1970s and 1980s, and it was full of old men. I started going again a few years ago and it was full of different old men. In a few years time I will be one of those old men. Jason 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horsetan Posted January 23, 2017 Share Posted January 23, 2017 ....I also don't think that the hobby is dying out because everyone is getting old. I used to go to exhibitions in the 1970s and 1980s, and it was full of old men. I started going again a few years ago and it was full of different old men. In a few years time I will be one of those old men. Old men never die. They just....(fill in your preferred risqué slogan here) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
billbedford Posted January 23, 2017 Share Posted January 23, 2017 (edited) Who would be interested in becoming a part of a venture that is intended to safeguard old ranges and from the revenue from those produce newer ranges either kit based or model based. It is intended that no one individual would make a wage from the venture although (once legalities are clarified) discounts on purchases by trustees / members etc could be looked at. But remember the profits on sales are intended to be ploughed back into the venture to allow funds for creating new models and replacing / updating tools on old models or indeed acquiring further ranges at risk of disappearing. Brilliant.... So what you are saying to all the people who keeping the cottage industry alive by doing new and innovative work that they should not bother because you want the cheap plastic kits that weren't particularly good when they were introduced 30-40 years ago? It's bad enough trying to make a living competing against people selling under priced kits, because 'it's just a hobby, really' but trying to compete again on non-profit outfit whose members believe that everything is too dear as it is, is going to be a nightmare. Still we've been here before, isn't that exactly why BSL/Pheonix was set up...... Edited January 23, 2017 by billbedford Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
billbedford Posted January 23, 2017 Share Posted January 23, 2017 Alas China isn't the answer to everything. True but it does allow people to carve out a space for their ideas without having to invest in the time and skills necessary to make the things themselves. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
billbedford Posted January 23, 2017 Share Posted January 23, 2017 Plastic kits aren't dead or dying out. In actual fact they are more prevalent than ever. Look in any of the Sci Fi or model shops and you can get a bewildering range of models. Much more than you could get in the heyday of Airfix. They aren't cheap either. But they sell. Yes but the ones that do sell have a world-wide appeal, and are not depended on small number of customers on a small off-shore island. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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