Cooper craft - Cautionary notes for customers - Its fate and thoughts on an alternative

[davelester]

Well, there you go. I think it's quite funny how a few of the ranges to have become piles of ashes so far have borne the name "Phoenix".

 

Ivan,

 

My suggestion for low volume production would be resin casting. This is good for about 25 copies per negative, and is do-able using home tools.

 

So, not good for PO wagons (needed in the 100s?), but might be ideal for pre-grouping specials such as GNR 6 plank opens, or GWR O4/5s or whatever.

 

The technique is to fabricate positives in brass. Then cast a negative in silicon (using a pump to get the bubbles out), and then casting the final results in resin, again using an air pump to eliminate air bubbles. Millicast do this for armoured vehicles.

[Spitfire2865]

Where are all the young Ian Kirks, Colin Ashbys, Adrian Swains, etc., etc., nowadays ??

Most younger 'modellers', (with some notable exceptions), don't now seem to have any initiative.

Regards,

John Isherwood.

Id love to have a go at making something, but I dont think my university allows injection molding in dorm buildings.

Though you cant say I dont have initiative, currently working out how to make a mold for a G3 Midland D299 thats sitting on my desk.

[Shadow]

Just found one of the moulding machines for sale, £500 (Actually last September)

 

Got some pictures there to look at as well if you're interested!

 

http://www.mycncuk.com/threads/9855-Austin-Allen-Gnat-250-PRT

[Edwardian]

Initiative is not the problem, disposable income to carry it out is.

 

Quite.  When whole generations now despair of having a pension or even owning a house ... 

[BG John]

Maybe not a complete solution, but having seen what some people are achieving with their Silhouette cutters, how about creating cut it yourself kits? If the artwork was either sold, or made available free as Open Source, the saving in not buying ready moulded kits would soon pay for a Silhouette Portrait.

 

It works for card building kits, where you download once and print as many as you want, and I haven't seen any reports of rampant piracy and kit sharing to take away income from the producers.

[Shadow]

Also just seen this home version of injection moulding.

 

https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/go-from-3d-printing-to-desktop-injection-moulding-diy-entrepreneur#/

[Mikkel]

Ivan,

 

My suggestion for low volume production would be resin casting. This is good for about 25 copies per negative, and is do-able using home tools.

 

So, not good for PO wagons (needed in the 100s?), but might be ideal for pre-grouping specials such as GNR 6 plank opens, or GWR O4/5s or whatever.

 

The technique is to fabricate positives in brass. Then cast a negative in silicon (using a pump to get the bubbles out), and then casting the final results in resin, again using an air pump to eliminate air bubbles. Millicast do this for armoured vehicles.

 

Aka Mr Bedford? 

 

http://www.mousa.biz/fourmm/wagons/lnwr_wagons4.html

[Steamport Southport]

Just a hint of realism/awareness from me, I'm talking generally not insulting anyone.

The ranges which have disappeared are tending to be older pre-grouping stock, generally modelled by the older spectrum of the modelling fraternity, so anyone investing time and money into a resurrection scenario may have a diminishing clientele, and will be competing with items coming onto the market more and more from deceased estates, so need to hit the ground running to extract maximum revenue.

There comes a time when a supply of kits, or indeed any other model related items, become more trouble than they are worth, and it is time to wave good bye and move on.

When the advances in technology are factored in, there may well be alternative ways to achieve everyones aims.

Regrettably we are where we are.

 

Mike.

 

Not really.

 

Ian Kirk had no pre grouping stock in it's range as far as I can recall. Neither did Mailcoach.

 

Coopercraft had British Railways Mark Ones.

 

Even the pre grouping stock mostly lasted until virtually to the end of steam era. I think everything in the range lasted well into BR days apart from the MR carriages and the GWR Clerestories.

 

 

 

There's still a market for these items. In fact if they were freely available then I reckon that I would have purchased well over a thousand pounds worth in the three years or so that this debacle has been going.

 

Think about it. £20 - £45 for a coach. Times that by 8 for a reasonable sized set. Then I want approximately 10 sets.

 

 

And no I'm not interested in 3D or resin. Both of which are s@@@e as far as I'm concerned. Certainly not suitable for making hundreds of kits.

 

 

Anyone who debates the validity of whether there's a market for these hasn't looked at ebay. £35 plus for a bog standard LNER Third.

 

 

 

Jason

[Enterprisingwestern]

OK.

Pre group/pre nationalisation.

 

Mike.

[Zero Gravitas]

Any advance on that, or was this the last siting of the Dodo prior to extinction?

Were CooperCraft at Scaleforum 2016, or is my aging brain and fading memory conflating Scaleforum and Railex?

[Horsetan]

Were CooperCraft at Scaleforum 2016, ....

Yes, "they" were. Number of etchings seemed to have increased slightly; number of plastic mouldings had decreased.

[Jol Wilkinson]

Currently I consider that resin casting provides the best route to low volume production. Professional casters will get 70 to 80 casts from a mould. Patterns can be produced in plasticard for cold cure moulds. Running gear can be etched and some detail parts such as sprung buffers can be bought in.

 

So while there is some initial outlay it is relatively small compared to other techniques such as plastic injection moulding. It is also being used by some manufacturers at present, so is proven commercially.

 

3D printing currently doesn't produce sufficiently good surface finishes at realistic prices yet, other than the small and exquisite products from Modelu. Together with a friend who runs a kit manufacturing busines we have looked at several 3D printed models from Shapeways and others in various materials, as well as resin kits cast from 3D patterns and none are near enough to injection moulded kits to be acceptable . Suitable patterns for moulds with an acceptable finish - comparable with injection moulding - can cost around £500 and so are better suited to low run, more costly, kits such as carriages rather than open wagons.

 

So, for those that want a model that is no longer available, the options are to scratchbuild it, create a low volume kit to get more than one and cover your cost (that's how quite a few Smaller Suppliers started) or simply go without.

 

The Coopercraft situation is probably recoverably technically by someone with the right expertise and motivation but I rather feel that it's beyond the capability of the current owner.

[alfsboy]

Ivan,

 

My suggestion for low volume production would be resin casting. This is good for about 25 copies per negative, and is do-able using home tools.

 

So, not good for PO wagons (needed in the 100s?), but might be ideal for pre-grouping specials such as GNR 6 plank opens, or GWR O4/5s or whatever.

 

The technique is to fabricate positives in brass. Then cast a negative in silicon (using a pump to get the bubbles out), and then casting the final results in resin, again using an air pump to eliminate air bubbles. Millicast do this for armoured vehicles.

You dont need a brass pattern for resin :plastic  and or epoxy putty will be perfect .Brass is waste of time and effort as no pressure  molds are  involved IMHO and indeed experience.

[Jol Wilkinson]

Yes, "they" were. Number of etchings seemed to have increased slightly; number of plastic mouldings had decreased.

That's because etches are bought in, whereas mouldings would be produced in house.

[raymw]

I think I'll set up as a consultant for modellers who want to get into plastic injection moulding. Pay me, say £500, and I guarantee to save you well over £5000, provided you follow my advice.

[Horsetan]

...The Coopercraft situation is probably recoverably technically by someone with the right expertise and motivation but I rather feel that it's beyond the capability of the current owner.

A lot of would-be customers feel the same.

 

Meanwhile, as Ian Kirk waits for an answer that may never come....

[Quarryscapes]

Currently I consider that resin casting provides the best route to low volume production. Professional casters will get 70 to 80 casts from a mould. Patterns can be produced in plasticard for cold cure moulds. Running gear can be etched and some detail parts such as sprung buffers can be bought in.

 

So while there is some initial outlay it is relatively small compared to other techniques such as plastic injection moulding. It is also being used by some manufacturers at present, so is proven commercially.

 

3D printing currently doesn't produce sufficiently good surface finishes at realistic prices yet, other than the small and exquisite products from Modelu. Together with a friend who runs a kit manufacturing busines we have looked at several 3D printed models from Shapeways and others in various materials, as well as resin kits cast from 3D patterns and none are near enough to injection moulded kits to be acceptable . Suitable patterns for moulds with an acceptable finish - comparable with injection moulding - can cost around £500 and so are better suited to low run, more costly, kits such as carriages rather than open wagons.

 

So, for those that want a model that is no longer available, the options are to scratchbuild it, create a low volume kit to get more than one and cover your cost (that's how quite a few Smaller Suppliers started) or simply go without.

 

The Coopercraft situation is probably recoverably technically by someone with the right expertise and motivation but I rather feel that it's beyond the capability of the current owner.

 

You haven't looked at mine, Parkside's injection moulded finish is no better than what is achievable with certain 3D Prints. The problem is the per unit cost is higher than what modellers seem to think things 'should' cost. 3D printed wagons cost is similar to the cost of etched with a considerably lower investment in time and construction. I'm already working on a replacement for the 1907 7-Plank end door wagon as I'm sick of bodging up Slaters bodies costing over £20 a pop (if I can find one!) and Cambrian Models underframes together with mediocre results. 

 

Here we have a mix, in no particular order: Kit Built, 3D Print mastered resin cast and 3D print. Now at this resolution and with my poor paint jobs it'll be tough to tell apart, granted. 

 

[Edwardian]

You haven't looked at mine, Parkside's injection moulded finish is no better than what is achievable with certain 3D Prints. The problem is the per unit cost is higher than what modellers seem to think things 'should' cost. 3D printed wagons cost is similar to the cost of etched with a considerably lower investment in time and construction. I'm already working on a replacement for the 1907 7-Plank end door wagon as I'm sick of bodging up Slaters bodies costing over £20 a pop (if I can find one!) and Cambrian Models underframes together with mediocre results. 

 

Here we have a mix, in no particular order: Kit Built, 3D Print mastered resin cast and 3D print. Now at this resolution and with my poor paint jobs it'll be tough to tell apart, granted. 

 

DSXT6015.jpg

 

I was very happy with the GE u/fs and wagon body that Alan kindly produced.  If you compare 3D printing in the best material with the cost of, say, Cambrian Kits plastic wagon kits, or what we remember paying for Coopercraft and Slaters, you will notice the difference, but I can testify as to the quality of the print. It is very good.

[Steamport Southport]

It's frustrating more that anything.

 

 

These are things that should still be freely available.But for whatever reason they aren't.

 

 

But we'll "get over it" as people often say on the internet.

 

 

 

 

 

Jason

[Andy Y]

3D printing currently doesn't produce sufficiently good surface finishes at realistic prices yet, other than the small and exquisite products from Modelu. Together with a friend who runs a kit manufacturing busines we have looked at several 3D printed models from Shapeways and others in various materials, as well as resin kits cast from 3D patterns and none are near enough to injection moulded kits to be acceptable . Suitable patterns for moulds with an acceptable finish - comparable with injection moulding - can cost around £500 and so are better suited to low run, more costly, kits such as carriages rather than open wagons.

 

Phil Parker and I visited a jewellery manufacturing company yesterday to look, initially, at their 3D printing processes which can produce exceptional quality masters at reasonable cost (dependent on component size). If you can imagine that these masters are for producing high-end jewellery designs it's imperative that the surface finishes are very smooth - we saw some fabulous examples. Their other processes go through the moulding and casting stages and it would be too costly for kit manufacture but they would be very viable for translating 3D designs into masters.

 

A poor screenshot from some video I was filming, Phil's got some much better stills.

 

 

We were then treated to a good look at all of the stages of the manufacturing services including close looks at precious metals in a (very) strong room. Nice to see real craftsmanship in a traditional industry thriving in the country and elements which could be of benefit to our hobby if the right people latch onto it.

[brian777999]

A 3D printer can be purchased from ebay for about 200 pounds but to produce high quality work for jewellery (or model trains)  the printer would be much more expensive. Somebody on another thread said this type of top quality printer can cost up to 100,000 pounds. Is this correct ? It does seem very high.

Edited January 19, 2017 by brian777999

[Roy Langridge]

A 3D printer can be purchased from ebay for about 200 pounds but to produce high quality work for jewellery (or model trains) the printer would be much more expensive. Somebody on another thread said this type of top quality printer can cost up to 100,000 pounds. Is this correct ? It does seem very high.

That cost does not surprise me. The advantage of 3D printing is that the design *should* be portable between different machines. The actual printing could therefore be contracted out, and competition in this area is increasing leading to a likely decrease in cost.

 

Roy

[sharris]

A 3D printer can be purchased from ebay for about 200 pounds but to produce high quality work for jewellery (or model trains)  the printer would be much more expensive. Somebody on another thread said this type of top quality printer can cost up to 100,000 pounds. Is this correct ? It does seem very high.

We have two printers at work capable of fine quality printing. One is from EOS which prints in nylon (we use medical grade as it's primarily used for custom orthopaedic surgery cutting templates) - this was over £100,000. The other is an Objet printer which prints using a UV cured polymer (claimed to be a plastic equivalent) - this was in the low 5 digit price range I think - somewhere around £20,000.

[Roy Langridge]

We have two printers at work capable of fine quality printing. One is from EOS which prints in nylon (we use medical grade as it's primarily used for custom orthopaedic surgery cutting templates) - this was over £100,000. The other is an Objet printer which prints using a UV cured polymer (claimed to be a plastic equivalent) - this was in the low 5 digit price range I think - somewhere around £20,000.

Now we know where to send our designs. You can just run them in your lunch hour ;-)

 

More seriously, there was talk up thread of crowdfunding to buy tooling. Would crowdfunding to buy a printer be viable if a suitable custodian could be found?

 

Roy

[sharris]

That cost does not surprise me. The advantage of 3D printing is that the design *should* be portable between different machines. The actual printing could therefore be contracted out, and competition in this area is increasing leading to a likely decrease in cost.

Roy

The design should be portable but different technologies have different properties. For example, laser sintering melts nylon (in our case) particles together- this can mean that holes running horizontally through an object can be very slightly different from those running vertically. The UV cured system is capable of a Matt or glossy surface, but only in some directions. So for optimum results you need to know the characteristics of the printer and possibly the orientation of the part, and if necessary compensate in the design.