Cooper craft - Cautionary notes for customers - Its fate and thoughts on an alternative

[sharris]

Now we know where to send our designs. You can just run them in your lunch hour ;-)

More seriously, there was talk up thread of crowdfunding to buy tooling. Would crowdfunding to buy a printer be viable if a suitable custodian could be found?

Roy

That's a tricky question- it would depend on production quantities, the size of the models required (the printers are large, but the printing volume is limited - you might struggle to fit a 4mm coach in whole), and what materials are acceptable- I don't actually know what glues our materials take (we never need to glue stuff for our work!). Don't forget you also need to factor in disposables (the printing material and support material if necessary), ancillary software and control computer (3D CAD is not cheap), post processing equipment- the nylon machine needs an enclosed high pressure water jet cleaner, the UV cured system needs a sodium hydroxide bath too, and utilities- possibly a 3 phase supply, air conditioning, etc. for the bigger printers. We've found service contracts are quite essential too!

 

,

[kandc_au]

Personally, I'm with you in wanting to see "early GWR, Midland , NER, and go further with GCR, GNR".  I'd add GER. There were various types of NER hopper, including the one Slaters made,  and I don't think anyone does the standard 9'6" w/b opens employed by the likes of GN, GE and GC, so there is plenty to do without reproducing what other kit manufacturers are currently offering.  Given the mind-blowingly vast quantities of the prototype MR opens that Slaters produced, that loss, alone, is a significant one.

 

With POs it's not so much a case of more POs, but hanging onto or replacing what we had in the Slaters range.

 

The Cambrian and Slaters ranges offered different coverage and, aside from a Scottish grain wagon of very limited application outside its home turf, Parkside's POs are all RCH 1923. 

 

RTR POs also tend to be, at least ostensibly, RCH 1923.  There are exceptions.  Hornby have done some decent older wooden u/f types - the dropside springs to mind - but with crude and odd underframe mouldings.  The PO liveries applied to Oxford's NBR 4-plank appear to inaccurate for the wagon concerned; a common fault with RTR POs generally. 

 

To have both Gloucester and Charles Roberts designs with the basic door variations, side only and side and end, would be useful, and that is what the Slaters range offered, plus a rather nice rectangular tank and a salt wagon.  

I haven't gotten past this post yet, so apologies if this has already been suggested.

Would it be better to start a new topic if we are looking at a Go fund me type of thing rather than drag this topic on.

 

Khris

[cctransuk]

Initiative is not the problem, disposable income to carry it out is.

 

Initiative implies assessing demand; deciding on a product; costing the potential product; calculating if the product is financially viable; and if so, sourcing funding via a business loan if necessary.

 

The guys who started these product lines; (and I here include my own transfer range); laid out significant money against the risk that their intended products might not sell. I have now been producing transfers for 17 years; in order to - God willing - take this up to 30 years when I will be 80, I have invested a good many thousands of pounds in spare printers and ink cartridges.

 

Bear in mind that the Alps printers that I use haven't been produced for many years, and their is no viable alternative without investing VERY large sums of money in state-of-the-art technology.

 

Business is not about having spare cash dripping out of your pockets - it's about having faith in yourself and belief in your products; there are no guarantees.

 

If, when we (the product range owners), decided to let the business go, we have the right to sell it on or abandon it as we see fit. Either way, we have no ongoing 'duty' to maintain availability of our products.

 

That's the way of the world, and continual bleating here won't change anything.

 

If the Coopercraft etc. range is so essential to the modelling community, let one or more members approach the current proprietor and put their hard cash on the table.

 

They may well find that their hand(s) may be snatched off, given the hard time he is getting here !!

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

Edited January 19, 2017 by cctransuk

[kandc_au]

Initiative is not the problem, disposable income to carry it out is.

 

Not so sure about this.

 

They seem to have different priorities nowadays for their money!

 

khris

[modelpara]

Initiative implies assessing demand; deciding on a product; costing the potential product; calculating if the product is financially viable; and if so, sourcing funding via a business loan if necessary.

 

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

Have you tried taking out a business loan lately?

 

Trust me it's something I've been looking at but it's not as easy as people seem to think to raise thousands of pounds just for one initial wagon.

 

Locomotives are easier as DJM would tell you but even that is hard work!

[kandc_au]

Now we know where to send our designs. You can just run them in your lunch hour ;-)

 

More seriously, there was talk up thread of crowdfunding to buy tooling. Would crowdfunding to buy a printer be viable if a suitable custodian could be found?

 

Roy

 

Roy,

Not sure if it was on a thread on this site or in a blog, but from memory a model railway club bought a machine for themselves, so that they could make models etc.

It would seem quite a logical way to go, to form a group and get crowd funding for a "quality" machine by todays standards.

I would thin k that you would need to decide before hand, what the first dozen or so models were to be to get interested parties to help.

Khris

[Roy Langridge]

Have you tried taking out a business loan lately?

 

Trust me it's something I've been looking at but it's not as easy as people seem to think to raise thousands of pounds just for one initial wagon.

 

Locomotives are easier as DJM would tell you but even that is hard work!

Fully agree. I run a small business and these days there is no way banks will let you start off in debt without some form of guarantee (house with no mortgage etc.) or a rock solid business case. Neither of which are likely to be available for the younger generation.

 

What was possible even a decade ago is long gone.

 

Roy

[cctransuk]

Fully agree. I run a small business and these days there is no way banks will let you start off in debt without some form of guarantee (house with no mortgage etc.) or a rock solid business case. Neither of which are likely to be available for the younger generation.

 

What was possible even a decade ago is long gone.

 

Roy

 

If that is the case, how do small businesses in any sphere get a start? I see plenty of young people with new initiatives opening up, outside the railway modelling world - perhaps some members posting here have a mistaken idea of what a viable business comprises of?

 

It has to be something that a lot of modellers want and would buy, at the price that you would need to sell it for - not what you want, at the price that you would pay, because you 'have' to have it.

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

Edited January 19, 2017 by cctransuk

[Richard Lee]

Regarding the demand for pre-grouping rolling stock, I can't imagine that there can be many modellers remaining with memories of the pre-grouping railway network.  (There won't be that many who remember the Big 4.)  On the other hand, there seem to be a minority of modellers with an interest in times that were before they were born.  My main layout is set in the mid 1930s (about a generation before I was born).  I also have a small (and at the moment, neglected) side project set in 1900 on an 8' by 18" plank.  Some people (probably a small proportion) will want to use the old-fashioned steam locomotives with pretty liveries.  Resin kits aren't quite as easy as plastic kits, but are attempt-able even by ham-fisted novices, in my personal experience.

[Enterprisingwestern]

Of course, there is always scratchbuilding.

 

Mike.

Retiring to bunker.

[Clive Mortimore]

Of course, there is always scratchbuilding.

 

Mike.

Retiring to bunker.

A lot easier than many think it is.

 

Clive

Is there any more room in that bunker?

[Roy Langridge]

If that is the case, how do small businesses in any sphere get a start? I see plenty of young people with new initiatives opening up, outside the railway modelling world - perhaps some members posting here have a mistaken idea of what a viable business comprises of?

 

It has to be something that a lot of modellers want and would buy, at the price that you would need to sell it for - not what you want, at the price that you would pay, because you 'have' to have it.

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

I think your second para states nicely what the problem is. A bank would want proof that 'x' units will sell and for a profit to be planned 'x' will need to be large. How many wagons will sell? As I said, banks will want a rock solid business case.

 

My business is 12 years old, has money in the bank and has never been in debt. We recently needed a bank guarantee for a contract, had the money to cover it and still the bank wanted a large initial fee, monthly fees and to have guarantees outside the business. A £2,500 bank guarantee was going to cost us in excess of £700 in fees. What did they have to do to earn this? Create a separate account with our money in it and put an independent signatory on it. Where is their risk? There was none.

 

This forum is not representative of the modelling community at large, indeed even on here there is often criticism of other members that don't model. Predicting sales will be very hard, especially in a community that is demonstrating a very high level of criticism. The very forum that a start-up may point to in order to demonstrate demand may also kill the idea.

 

Debt also has to be funded, and whilst interest rates are low at the moment, business loans are not cheap and rates are expected to rise. This just increases the burden on a start-up.

 

The number of new businesses opening today is far less than it was, in the main because funding has become harder. Yes there are initiatives, but they are often low cost or funded/guaranteed by parents etc.

 

Roy

Edited January 19, 2017 by Roy Langridge

[Edwardian]

We seem to be tying ourselves up in knots here.

 

This is, after all, a topic that concerns the fate of certain product ranges.  Those interested in their fate are evidence of some level of demand and there is no suggestion that these ranges have become unavailable because the owner, having bought them, decided that nobody wanted the product!

 

Seemingly the mention of the word "pre-grouping" is a red rag that brings out a set of predictable, if irrelevant, responses such as, "you shouldn't expect people to make what you want" and "you should scratch-build everything".

 

Actually the Coopercraft ranges span Grouping and pre-Grouping eras and that fact seems unconnected with their demise!  Or should we explain to Cambrian Kits that there is no demand for 2/3s of its range?!?

[cctransuk]

I think your second para states nicely what the problem is. A bank would want proof that 'x' units will sell and for a profit to be planned 'x' will need to be large. How many wagons will sell? As I said, banks will want a rock solid business case.

 

My business is 12 years old, has money in the bank and has never been in debt. We recently needed a bank guarantee for a contract, had the money to cover it and still the bank wanted a large initial fee, monthly fees and to have guarantees outside the business. A £2,500 bank guarantee was going to cost us in excess of £700 in fees. What did they have to do to earn this? Create a separate account with our money in it and put an independent signatory on it. Where is their risk? There was none.

 

This forum is not representative of the modelling community at large, indeed even on here there is often criticism of other members that don't model. Predicting sales will be very hard, especially in a community that is demonstrating a very high level of criticism. The very forum that a start-up may point to in order to demonstrate demand may also kill the idea.

 

Debt also has to be funded, and whilst interest rates are low at the moment, business loans are not cheap and rates are expected to rise. This just increases the burden on a start-up.

 

The number of new businesses opening today is far less than it was, in the main because funding has become harder. Yes there are initiatives, but they are often low cost or funded/guaranteed by parents etc.

 

Roy

 

I think you are mixing-up the business case for commissioning, say, an RTR wagon; and producing a kit by whatever method.

 

The capital cost of producing the latter, either in cast whitemetal, etched brass, cast resin or 3D printing, is not huge; certainly not impossible for someone who is prepared to do much of the work him / herself. That's exactly how the last generation of kit producers got into the business.

 

We've established that, even for an injected plastic wagon kit, a reasonably skilled modeller / group of modellers should be able to produce the brass moulding tools. We have also been shown that the injection moulding machines are now, relatively speaking, far cheaper to acquire than they were for the likes of Ian Kirk etc.

 

So, perhaps my mention of bank loans was a red herring; substitute a bit of saving to accumulate the wherewithall to buy the machine, whilst learning the skills to produce the moulds.

 

It wasn't impossible a generation ago and it's not now - it depends how determined you are.

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

[Dunsignalling]

Regarding the demand for pre-grouping rolling stock, I can't imagine that there can be many modellers remaining with memories of the pre-grouping railway network.  (There won't be that many who remember the Big 4.)  On the other hand, there seem to be a minority of modellers with an interest in times that were before they were born.  My main layout is set in the mid 1930s (about a generation before I was born).  I also have a small (and at the moment, neglected) side project set in 1900 on an 8' by 18" plank.  Some people (probably a small proportion) will want to use the old-fashioned steam locomotives with pretty liveries.  Resin kits aren't quite as easy as plastic kits, but are attempt-able even by ham-fisted novices, in my personal experience.

There certainly won't be anyone left with personal memories of the pre- WW1 period which (allegedly) offers the colour and cleanliness that some seem to crave.

 

However, one only needs to look at the range of r-t-r wagons that are available to realise that models in pre-group liveries (especially PO wagons) that are either of post-grouping or semi-freelance designs, sell in substantial numbers. Even Bachmann, who are lesser offenders than most, have released quite a few RCH 1923-pattern wagons in liveries that are clearly taken from earlier prototypes.

 

No r-t-r manufacturer has yet seen fit to produce a model of either a 1907-pattern open wagon or the Hurst Nelson-built PO vans which comprised the vast majority (of the proportionately tiny number) of such vehicles that ever existed. I've never even seen a kit for the latter but wouldn't exclude the possibility that one has been produced.

 

All that suggests that "the market", through ignorance or indifference, is sufficiently content with the ersatz to make the authentic unnecessary, at least in the commercial scales smaller than 7mm.

 

As for the former 4mm scale kit ranges now under the Coopercraft banner, one hopes that some may re-emerge in time. Their utility extends to those of us modelling eras well beyond 1923.

 

If the current owner has no prospect of resuming production, it is in his (or his bankers', if they consider it worth the effort) interests to recoup something by selling on those moulds that remain useable/restorable and Ian Kirk has indicated that machines to accept them are not extinct. The big question is, who would want to take on such a fraught task?   

 

John  

Edited January 19, 2017 by Dunsignalling

[Edwardian]

 

It wasn't impossible a generation ago and it's not now - it depends how determined you are.

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

 

The big question is, who would want to take on such a fraught task?   

 

 

 

Well, I say it again, any takers?

 

Anyone who wants to contribute time, research, master-making or finance should be talking to each other now.

 

Because if this topic has demonstrated anything, it is that there is no point in waiting on Coopercraft to do anything. 

 

Not that I am expecting an avalanche of PMs, but if only a portion of those lamenting the demise of these ranges were to support the manufacture of some replacement products .....

[Roy Langridge]

Well, I say it again, any takers?

 

Anyone who wants to contribute time, research, master-making or finance should be talking to each other now.

 

Because if this topic has demonstrated anything, it is that there is no point in waiting on Coopercraft to do anything.

 

Not that I am expecting an avalanche of PMs, but if only a portion of those lamenting the demise of these ranges were to support the manufacture of some replacement products .....

When we set up our business I read an amazing statistic. Of 1000 people who think about setting up a business, 100 will actually look into it seriously. Of those, only 4 will actually do it. That is what you are up against.

 

Another frightening statistic, 52% of new businesses fail within 2 years.

 

That said, setting up in business is one of the best decisions I have ever made. But it does take over your life, needs nerves of steel and is not to be entered into lightly. If you are in partnership you need to be able to trust your partners 100%.

 

The ideal is to be able to create a business in parallel with a paid job - not always possible. I couldn't and to walk away from a well paid job was scarey. I sat there the first morning wondering what the blazes I had just done.

 

A question. How easily could a 3D model initially be used to create a printed kit and then be used to create a mould or tooling? What I am wondering is if the way to go is to create a 3D printed kit and if well received then go for tooling based on it? Given 3D models can be scaled, any shrinkage etc. should be addressable.

 

Roy

Edited January 19, 2017 by Roy Langridge

[kandc_au]

Can I again suggest a new Thread!

To talk about business is a bit premature given you need to consider the whole format for those who may be interested in participating to start with!

 

khris

[uax6]

Regarding the demand for pre-grouping rolling stock, I can't imagine that there can be many modellers remaining with memories of the pre-grouping railway network.  (There won't be that many who remember the Big 4.)  On the other hand, there seem to be a minority of modellers with an interest in times that were before they were born.  My main layout is set in the mid 1930s (about a generation before I was born).  I also have a small (and at the moment, neglected) side project set in 1900 on an 8' by 18" plank.  Some people (probably a small proportion) will want to use the old-fashioned steam locomotives with pretty liveries.  Resin kits aren't quite as easy as plastic kits, but are attempt-able even by ham-fisted novices, in my personal experience.

But I think the point that most people miss about pre-grouping vehicles is this:

 

Lots of pre-grouping stock lasted in normal service well into the 1950's. All these layouts set in that time period should have pre-grouping vehicles on them.

 

But then again I feel there is actually only a few modellers that actually have any interest in whats behind the loco. Its probably not true, but when you pick up the modelling rags that's certainly the impression you get. I'm nowhere near a master craftsman, but because I want to model part of the Highland Railway in the 1920's and 30's I have to have an interest in the stock, so have invested in a cutter and I am making, from scratch, pregrouping carriages. In fact its because of that interest that I came back to modelling...

 

It would be interesting to find out what the sales figures are for the ratio midland and lnwr carriages, as a small way of seeing what the real demand is.

[jjnewitt]

If that is the case, how do small businesses in any sphere get a start? I see plenty of young people with new initiatives opening up, outside the railway modelling world - perhaps some members posting here have a mistaken idea of what a viable business comprises of?

 

It has to be something that a lot of modellers want and would buy, at the price that you would need to sell it for - not what you want, at the price that you would pay, because you 'have' to have it.

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

 

On the contrary I'd suggest that getting something that you want is about the only good reason for setting up a small business, from scratch, in the model railway world. In my experience there's very little money to be made trying to produce things like kits or bits unless it's a spin off from what you already do, I'm thinking of the likes of Parkside and Ultrascale. Anyone considering doing it on a comercial basis needs there head examining. If somone has an idea something that a lot of modellers want and would buy go and talk to a factory in China and get it produced RTR because that's the majority of modellers would consider buying.

 

Justin

[hayfield]

On the contrary I'd suggest that getting something that you want is about the only good reason for setting up a small business, from scratch, in the model railway world. In my experience there's very little money to be made trying to produce things like kits or bits unless it's a spin off from what you already do, I'm thinking of the likes of Parkside and Ultrascale. Anyone considering doing it on a comercial basis needs there head examining. If somone has an idea something that a lot of modellers want and would buy go and talk to a factory in China and get it produced RTR because that's the majority of modellers would consider buying.

 

Justin

 

 

Many modellers would love to be able to work within their hobby, as many do. If you did do that would it still be an enjoyable hobby or just work ?

 

I personally think there is plenty of room for cottage industry style of business both part and full time, as there are many keeping the hobby going.

The problems start when additional employees are required and or business premises needed. Rather than taking the next step, it seems a giant leap forward many cannot achieve

I guess the small businesses are part subsidised by the proprietor either having a day job and or working from home, which is how many small farms survive/are operated abroad

[Clearwater]

Another factor to consider is physical space. I live in London -I can imagine my wife's reaction is a small injection moulding machine turned up...

[chris p bacon]

On the contrary I'd suggest that getting something that you want is about the only good reason for setting up a small business, from scratch, in the model railway world. In my experience there's very little money to be made trying to produce things like kits or bits unless it's a spin off from what you already do, I'm thinking of the likes of Parkside and Ultrascale. Anyone considering doing it on a comercial basis needs there head examining. If somone has an idea something that a lot of modellers want and would buy go and talk to a factory in China and get it produced RTR because that's the majority of modellers would consider buying.

 

Justin

 

Nail on the head.

I'm making up some patterns for some coach parts I want, if the moulds go to a few more they'll be passed to friends, if I was looking to try and make money from this there's no way I'd be choosing a GN vehicle and yet that is what I want,  if I wanted to try and sell these I'd have to invest a significant sum in a professional production run rather than home produced.

The reality is that with the big manufacturers sourcing from China and to a higher quality they have raised peoples expectations.  There are already grumblings about the price for new RTR coaches (£50+)  I've used approx £20 worth of silicon for the moulds + bits and bobs, I only want 3 coaches so the cost is probably going to be a tenner without underframe, bogies & wheels (donor coach) If I can get the mould to go to about 10 then each coach is approx £6 + underframe+U/F parts+bogies+wheels+postage This would bring it up around £30, this is with no profit to reinvest and the customer sourcing their own parts. 

Of course Injection moulding is cheaper but only if you have the knowledge, if like me you don't then you're reliant on a 3rd party for the tooling which is a significant part of the set up cost.

 

Crowd funding.......no, never in a million years. A group of knowledgable people to take it on with experience in tooling is a better bet, but it's likely they're already doing something as that is their mindset.

Another factor to consider is physical space. I live in London -I can imagine my wife's reaction is a small injection moulding machine turned up...

And this is the other problem, where do you site any production, if home based it still has to be a reasonably proffessional set up and if space is to be rented then up goes the cost. I've just reduced the size of the workshop which is sited at home as it can be overbearing on home life.

 

I do wonder that a successful company such as Parkside hasn't in the past picked up Slaters etc when they came on the market. Could be they just weren't interested or that the product just wasn't viable in the first place, hence the sale.

[sharris]

Incidentally, looking at the Shapeways material safety datasheet, it would appear that for their frosted prints they are using a ProJet HD 3000 Production Modeling System, or more recent variant on it. I don't know how much these sell for new (at the sort of prices they're asking it's a case of doing a deal with the distributor), but I've seen them on auction sites priced between $8000 and $18000, 

 

With this model you might fit in a 4mm coach in high density print mode, but not in ultra-high density. 

 

http://www.3dsystems.com/products/datafiles/projet/ProJet_HD_3000_Brochure_USEN.pdf

[brian777999]

 

I do wonder that a successful company such as Parkside hasn't in the past picked up Slaters etc when they came on the market. Could be they just weren't interested or that the product just wasn't viable in the first place, hence the sale.

 

I was surprised when Slaters sold off the 4mm side of their business. It did make me wonder at the time why they would do that.