Cooper craft - Cautionary notes for customers - Its fate and thoughts on an alternative

[railroadbill]

There's been a lot posted of interest in this thread, quite apart from the availability or otherwise of Cooper craft products.  Particularly Ian Kirk's posts about the technicalities of producing his kits. That could be expanded to make a good book.

 

This has encouraged me to look through the stash to see what cooper craft kits I might have squirreled away, and I've found and built a GWR wood mink A van this afternoon. Kept me out of the cold.  Prototype from 1906, so will fit in with my small pre grouping project. Think there's a couple more somewhere.

 

Other cooper craft on the layout   are a Bedford truck, station name boards with useful separate alphabets, similar for signal box name plates and platelayers tools.

 

These all came from the local model shop (although a while ago) so possible that there are still some CC kits still hanging up for sale somewhere!

[Junctionmad]

 

As someone heading towards old age with a lot less money than intended, I can't afford O gauge wagon kits, or the latest 3D printed and resin 4mm ones. Coopercraft and Slaters prices are OK, as are Cambrian although I haven't yet bought any. Picking up secondhand Coopercraft and Slaters 4mm when I can, and cheap but not brilliantly made 7mm Slaters wagons at around half the new kit price, is my limit. Plus scratchbuilding, that I haven't got anywhere with yet. That's a reality of life, as I won't be retiring with the bottomless pockets that some modellers seem to have. I don't know how many other people are in a similar position, but if realistic prices for producers, and affordable prices for buyers, are diverging, maybe a rethink on what type of products are produced is needed.

 

Railway modelling is now a preserve of relatively affluent older people with time on their hands.  The cheap end of the hobby is rapidly disappearing , so while many of us can sympathise with your perspective , the hobby is changing , even RTR is getting increasing expensive as locos head for the 150-200 pound mark , then you can add DCC sound etc ( theres another 100 quid an all ).  Hence as I commented recently , were not far off the £1000 model goods train 

 

to suggest that anyone in this say and age , will start a business selling wagon kits to " hobbyists" for £10-12 a pop is just nonsense, rules, regulations , the need to make a living, insurance etc etc etc are all reasons why young people start software businesses  not injection moulding ones. 

 

My problem is we are faced with a perfect storm, scratch building /kit building  4mm modelling is witnessing a serious decline , since I started in the 70s and left the hobby in 85 , and rejoined in 2008, its noticeable  how many suppliers of wheels , castings , bits and pieces etc have disappeared. ( while paradoxically , the internet , email, paypal etc , make it easier then ever before for cottage industries to reach their , often world-wide, audience )

 

Now we have places like cambrian, PD , C&L Exactoscale etc , all looking to sell ( or failing to sell ) and in essence potential disappearing with their owners ( not wishing ill will on anyone ) all of whom , like ian kirk are getting older ( like the rest of us ) . Those of us for example that hand build track would be severely discombobulated if for example C&L ended up being sold and going the way of Coppercraft. ( which is in the lineage of Sudiolith -> ExactoScale  etc )  

 

we will need to face facts, There is a danger that the 4mm non rtr hobby will die out with the generation that mainly introduced its popularity 

 

The hobby will then be in the hands of limited commission based RTR , and specialist suppliers of a limited number that are very expensive ( and I dont begrudge them their pricing ) . It staggers me what some 0 gauge RTR stuff is going for and people are actually paying it. 

 

Our only hope is that those that are capable , will access the new world of " instant manufacturing : , like commissioned etches, 3D , or crowd funding 

However we have a ways to go , many  hardly can drive a computer , never mind high end CAD.  

 

3D and 2D CNC milling and cutting will be increasingly better, but instant manufacturing technology is never going to cheap . high end machines will always be expensive 

 

I think we can safely  say that in the meantime , we are heading for the £30-40 wagon , the £80 coach and $150-200 loco pricing range , the old days are one , never to return 

 

BTW those of you lamenting the young etc , need to seriously wise up as to the issues in starting a business today. The recent global crash has removed a generation of entrepreneurs , and only those that receive significant startup support are making a go of it ( and large numbers are failing ) .  

 

I dont see any upside to this 

Edited January 23, 2017 by Junctionmad

[Clive Mortimore]

There is quite a bit of discussion around the demise of the stuff Mr Coopercraft  intended to produce. I don't know what went wrong but something major has.

 

In this thread it has been mentioned that the moulding machine suitable for these kits can be brought for as little as £500, even £1000 is not too expensive. I have given it some thought that I might buy one of these machines. At the same time offer Mr Coopercraft the scrap value of the redundant brass moulds in his possession. For him to hold on to them with an eye to resell them for more than scrap value without a profitable business to go with them is absurd. No one should buy them for more than their weight in material because that is all his family will get when he is gone should he hold on to them. 

Edited January 23, 2017 by Clive Mortimore

[Enterprisingwestern]

  Hence as I commented recently , were not far off the £1000 model goods train 

 

 

Anybody modelling a Drax biomass train with a sound fitted class 66 at the front has left that far behind already, but, as you say, anybody modelling a "realistic" goods train will be getting there.

How miuch would the 100 wagon consist on Retford cost with RTR equivalents?, well over that I'll wager.

 

Mike.

[Re6/6]

Railway modelling is now a preserve of relatively affluent older people with time on their hands.  The cheap end of the hobby is rapidly disappearing , so while many of us can sympathise with your perspective , the hobby is changing , even RTR is getting increasing expensive as locos head for the 150-200 pound mark , then you can add DCC sound etc ( theres another 100 quid an all ).  Hence as I commented recently , were not far off the £1000 model goods train........................................

 

 

 

Some very well put observations there. It makes uncomfortable reading but does give us a 'reality check'.

[Dunsignalling]

Anybody modelling a Drax biomass train with a sound fitted class 66 at the front has left that far behind already, but, as you say, anybody modelling a "realistic" goods train will be getting there.

How miuch would the 100 wagon consist on Retford cost with RTR equivalents?, well over that I'll wager.

 

Mike.

Bachmann's prices for new releases of mineral wagons, 7-planks etc. is up around the £15 mark, so getting on for £1500, loco extra.

 

 

John

[Edwardian]

Railway modelling is now a preserve of relatively affluent older people with time on their hands.  The cheap end of the hobby is rapidly disappearing , so while many of us can sympathise with your perspective , the hobby is changing , even RTR is getting increasing expensive as locos head for the 150-200 pound mark , then you can add DCC sound etc ( theres another 100 quid an all ).  Hence as I commented recently , were not far off the £1000 model goods train 

 

to suggest that anyone in this say and age , will start a business selling wagon kits to " hobbyists" for £10-12 a pop is just nonsense, rules, regulations , the need to make a living, insurance etc etc etc are all reasons why young people start software businesses  not injection moulding ones. 

 

My problem is we are faced with a perfect storm, scratch building /kit building  4mm modelling is witnessing a serious decline , since I started in the 70s and left the hobby in 85 , and rejoined in 2008, its noticeable  how many suppliers of wheels , castings , bits and pieces etc have disappeared. ( while paradoxically , the internet , email, paypal etc , make it easier then ever before for cottage industries to reach their , often world-wide, audience )

 

Now we have places like cambrian, PD , C&L Exactoscale etc , all looking to sell ( or failing to sell ) and in essence potential disappearing with their owners ( not wishing ill will on anyone ) all of whom , like ian kirk are getting older ( like the rest of us ) . Those of us for example that hand build track would be severely discombobulated if for example C&L ended up being sold and going the way of Coppercraft. ( which is in the lineage of Sudiolith -> ExactoScale  etc )  

 

we will need to face facts, There is a danger that the 4mm non rtr hobby will die out with the generation that mainly introduced its popularity 

 

The hobby will then be in the hands of limited commission based RTR , and specialist suppliers of a limited number that are very expensive ( and I dont begrudge them their pricing ) . It staggers me what some 0 gauge RTR stuff is going for and people are actually paying it. 

 

Our only hope is that those that are capable , will access the new world of " instant manufacturing : , like commissioned etches, 3D , or crowd funding 

However we have a ways to go , many  hardly can drive a computer , never mind high end CAD.  

 

3D and 2D CNC milling and cutting will be increasingly better, but instant manufacturing technology is never going to cheap . high end machines will always be expensive 

 

I think we can safely  say that in the meantime , we are heading for the £30-40 wagon , the £80 coach and $150-200 loco pricing range , the old days are one , never to return 

 

BTW those of you lamenting the young etc , need to seriously wise up as to the issues in starting a business today. The recent global crash has removed a generation of entrepreneurs , and only those that receive significant startup support are making a go of it ( and large numbers are failing ) .  

 

I dont see any upside to this 

 

There is, unfortunately, much in what you say.

 

I recall I did post some time ago about vanishing accessory ranges, making scratch-building certainly less convenient and cost effective than it used to be. 

 

For me, though, your conclusion brings us right round to the central concern: If no one buys these ranges to continue them in production (a tough enough proposition in itself), we will lose them and we cannot expect new ranges, especially of injection moulded stuff, to emerge (an even tougher proposition). 

 

Keeping these ranges alive, and in production for a reasonable per unit cost will be a real challenge.  

 

I do feel that the ranges concerned could be exploited more effectively, but, of course, at a cost of more money and staff than is realistically possible for a cottage industry. 

 

A well-laid out and attractive e-commerce website is essential, though Coopercraft is proof positive that this is a waste of time if you ignore your own website enquiries/orders and fail to produce the product!

 

The answer might have to be a relatively substantial company, one that, like Peco/Pritchard PP could run a number of ranges.  But this needs very significant capital.

 

Pie in the Sky, unless and until someone has the means and will to do it, but a Second Peco embracing C&L, ABS, Cambrian, Parkside, and with a budget for pushing these ranges might actually work.

 

One man in a shed trudging round every show will not expand the market, make enough product for an expanded market or make any money!   

[hayfield]

Railway modelling is now a preserve of relatively affluent older people with time on their hands.  The cheap end of the hobby is rapidly disappearing , so while many of us can sympathise with your perspective , the hobby is changing , even RTR is getting increasing expensive as locos head for the 150-200 pound mark , then you can add DCC sound etc ( theres another 100 quid an all ).  Hence as I commented recently , were not far off the £1000 model goods train 

 

 

 

You are quite right that in recent years we have seen the rise of expensive models, something that I think has been on the Continent for a longer time. An certainly if at shows the majority both showing and visiting seem nearing or past retirement age

 

Supply and demand plus modern manufacturing techniques will control costs. You are quite correct that many are willing to pay a kings ransom for a new loco or piece of rolling stock. But you do not have to, its a choice. On the other hand there are still some inexpensive new models and kits available. As the older folk stop collecting modelling/collecting prices will fall with demand not exceeding supply

 

Then there is the second hand market, yes you can find expensive items for sale but normally they are far cheaper. If you want something now then it will be dear, if you keep your eyes open or accept an alternative then savings can be massive. For instance I have just bought a Bemo DCC loco quoted as not working for £25 the hope being the chip not working, as I model in DC a blanking plate will solve all the issues, they are £250 + new and sell for £100 s/h. Second hand is a saving of 3/5ths on the new price

 

I have bought either complete white metal kits or pre-made for between £20 and £50, kits start at £80 plus wheels and motors. So just keep your eyes open. The smaller local shows are often great places to buy s/h either off the club stall of the local traders, model railway shops are picking up on the s/h trade. I have been told car boot fairs and charity shops are good places to by, but never get the time to go to either. And it is this market which still seems to be supplying these hard to find kits 

 

 

 

 

Edited January 23, 2017 by hayfield

[Shadow]

Railway modelling is now a preserve of relatively affluent older people with time on their hands.  The cheap end of the hobby is rapidly disappearing , so while many of us can sympathise with your perspective , the hobby is changing , even RTR is getting increasing expensive as locos head for the 150-200 pound mark , then you can add DCC sound etc ( theres another 100 quid an all ).  Hence as I commented recently , were not far off the £1000 model goods train 

 

to suggest that anyone in this say and age , will start a business selling wagon kits to " hobbyists" for £10-12 a pop is just nonsense, rules, regulations , the need to make a living, insurance etc etc etc are all reasons why young people start software businesses  not injection moulding ones. 

 

My problem is we are faced with a perfect storm, scratch building /kit building  4mm modelling is witnessing a serious decline , since I started in the 70s and left the hobby in 85 , and rejoined in 2008, its noticeable  how many suppliers of wheels , castings , bits and pieces etc have disappeared. ( while paradoxically , the internet , email, paypal etc , make it easier then ever before for cottage industries to reach their , often world-wide, audience )

 

Now we have places like cambrian, PD , C&L Exactoscale etc , all looking to sell ( or failing to sell ) and in essence potential disappearing with their owners ( not wishing ill will on anyone ) all of whom , like ian kirk are getting older ( like the rest of us ) . Those of us for example that hand build track would be severely discombobulated if for example C&L ended up being sold and going the way of Coppercraft. ( which is in the lineage of Sudiolith -> ExactoScale  etc )  

 

we will need to face facts, There is a danger that the 4mm non rtr hobby will die out with the generation that mainly introduced its popularity 

 

The hobby will then be in the hands of limited commission based RTR , and specialist suppliers of a limited number that are very expensive ( and I dont begrudge them their pricing ) . It staggers me what some 0 gauge RTR stuff is going for and people are actually paying it. 

 

Our only hope is that those that are capable , will access the new world of " instant manufacturing : , like commissioned etches, 3D , or crowd funding 

However we have a ways to go , many  hardly can drive a computer , never mind high end CAD.  

 

3D and 2D CNC milling and cutting will be increasingly better, but instant manufacturing technology is never going to cheap . high end machines will always be expensive 

 

I think we can safely  say that in the meantime , we are heading for the £30-40 wagon , the £80 coach and $150-200 loco pricing range , the old days are one , never to return 

 

BTW those of you lamenting the young etc , need to seriously wise up as to the issues in starting a business today. The recent global crash has removed a generation of entrepreneurs , and only those that receive significant startup support are making a go of it ( and large numbers are failing ) .  

 

I dont see any upside to this

 

I agree with what you are saying, but on the opposite side, if you can produce a wagon as you are saying at £10-12 a go, there will be a market for them. Mainly because people will be able to afford them and if you do want that large number of items then it's the only way to get it.

 

Second point is that even if the quality was not up to the latest standards, if it's the only way you can get that volume, it will sell. I guess a bit like Hornby's Railroad range.

[kandc_au]

Re Coopercraft Moulding machine:

from memory the machine or dies were NOT a stock standard item. I think it was the machine, and when it broke everything fell apart.

Re his website:

I do believe that he had posted and it was quite well known that he had problems with it, so to place orders you had to phone NOT use the site.

At one point there was a message on the site saying the same thing yet even them people were still placing orders on the site and complaining that they weren't getting anything and losing their money.

As for the owners actions, he seems to have a failure to communicate, and I don't think that is an issue that is going to be resolved in the near future unfortunately.

I have said on another thread that maybe someone needs to approach him with the view to sell everything.
The opposing view to that, was that most of the stuff is towards the end of their life as far as quality for todays market.

So is it really worth it?

 

khris

[BG John]

Railway modelling is now a preserve of relatively affluent older people with time on their hands.  The cheap end of the hobby is rapidly disappearing , so while many of us can sympathise with your perspective , the hobby is changing , even RTR is getting increasing expensive as locos head for the 150-200 pound mark , then you can add DCC sound etc ( theres another 100 quid an all ).  Hence as I commented recently , were not far off the £1000 model goods train

I've had a couple of relatively expensive years while I get back into the hobby. I'm building a variety of small layouts to try to catch up with the various subjects I've wanted to model over all those missing years. I started off with a OO layout, where I bought everything ready to lay and ready to run (it may even be running soon!). I got sucked into O gauge by the Dapol Terrier at just over £150, which I thought was a good and affordable price, but I'm not sure I would have bought them at £200-£250, which seems to be the current price for small locos. I've got enough wagons to get started, nearly all bought on eBay ready made at around half the price of a new kit, or less, although needing some work. My 4mm layouts are mainly using stock from previous layouts so far, and I've bought some Coopercraft and Slaters wagons as I find them. So I've spent a fair bit, although nothing in comparison to what I read of quite a lot of people on RMweb spending.

 

But I've now pretty much reached the limit of my big spending. The only thing I'm seriously considering is radio control for the O gauge layout, paid for by selling an O gauge loco I bought but don't need any more. Everything else will be staying DC though.

 

Something I've enjoyed is making use of old and surplus materials. I've spent almost nothing on baseboards so far, have used up a lot of my surplus track, locos, rolling stock, buildings and other materials on a layout designed to use it, and have plans for the rest of my accumulated junk. As I develop the skills, I'm moving further towards scratchbuilding, and bashing cheap RTR. I don't want to be a collector of expensive locos and rolling stock, where I build layouts to run/display them, I want to make everything possible myself, even if it's not as good as what's available RTR. If there are lowish priced kits available that are suitable (not a lot is available for my main interests and periods), I'll buy them, but otherwise I'll have to scratchbuild them, or go without.

 

I intend most of my future purchases to be basic materials like card and plasticard. I'll need wheels, motors etc as well, but if they get too expensive, I'll model tramways, where I can hide cheap wheels behind skirts on locos!

 

If I find I'm living an affluent old age, I'd probably want to do the same anyway. Buying stuff is boring .

[uax6]

But actually what is todays market? Is the only stuff that people want to buy super high detailed? Are the only modellers out there the ones who want everything done for them, or is there a bigger crowd of modellers who actually don't mind buying cheap and spending time modelling and changing details to suit themselves?

 

If the answer is that only superdetailed items will sell, how come Dapol are still producing the old Airfix/Kitmaster stuff?

 

I believe that there is a market for these kits, and that its better to have something less detailed than nothing at all.

 

If we can discover what is broken and it is infact fixable (Maybe Ian K can help with this?) and if Clive is serious, I wouldn't mind giving a donation to him to help him with the costs. Sadly It won't be much but it would help.

 

Andy G

[Dunsignalling]

Railway modelling is now a preserve of relatively affluent older people with time on their hands.  The cheap end of the hobby is rapidly disappearing , so while many of us can sympathise with your perspective , the hobby is changing , even RTR is getting increasing expensive as locos head for the 150-200 pound mark , then you can add DCC sound etc ( theres another 100 quid an all ).  Hence as I commented recently , were not far off the £1000 model goods train 

 

to suggest that anyone in this say and age , will start a business selling wagon kits to " hobbyists" for £10-12 a pop is just nonsense, rules, regulations , the need to make a living, insurance etc etc etc are all reasons why young people start software businesses  not injection moulding ones. 

 

My problem is we are faced with a perfect storm, scratch building /kit building  4mm modelling is witnessing a serious decline , since I started in the 70s and left the hobby in 85 , and rejoined in 2008, its noticeable  how many suppliers of wheels , castings , bits and pieces etc have disappeared. ( while paradoxically , the internet , email, paypal etc , make it easier then ever before for cottage industries to reach their , often world-wide, audience )

 

Now we have places like cambrian, PD , C&L Exactoscale etc , all looking to sell ( or failing to sell ) and in essence potential disappearing with their owners ( not wishing ill will on anyone ) all of whom , like ian kirk are getting older ( like the rest of us ) . Those of us for example that hand build track would be severely discombobulated if for example C&L ended up being sold and going the way of Coppercraft. ( which is in the lineage of Sudiolith -> ExactoScale  etc )  

 

we will need to face facts, There is a danger that the 4mm non rtr hobby will die out with the generation that mainly introduced its popularity 

 

The hobby will then be in the hands of limited commission based RTR , and specialist suppliers of a limited number that are very expensive ( and I dont begrudge them their pricing ) . It staggers me what some 0 gauge RTR stuff is going for and people are actually paying it. 

 

Our only hope is that those that are capable , will access the new world of " instant manufacturing : , like commissioned etches, 3D , or crowd funding 

However we have a ways to go , many  hardly can drive a computer , never mind high end CAD.  

 

3D and 2D CNC milling and cutting will be increasingly better, but instant manufacturing technology is never going to cheap . high end machines will always be expensive 

 

I think we can safely  say that in the meantime , we are heading for the £30-40 wagon , the £80 coach and $150-200 loco pricing range , the old days are one , never to return 

 

BTW those of you lamenting the young etc , need to seriously wise up as to the issues in starting a business today. The recent global crash has removed a generation of entrepreneurs , and only those that receive significant startup support are making a go of it ( and large numbers are failing ) .  

 

I dont see any upside to this 

I don't think the r-t-r side will be immune from such decline, though it may well take a bit longer to happen. 

 

Railways, and, by extension, model railways, just occupy different places in society and people's lives than they did in my youth. Younger generations, for all sorts of reasons, just don't seem to be entering the hobby in anything like the numbers required to replace us oldies as we exit the scene.

 

The r-t-r manufacturers are "making hay while the sun shines", with I and many others relishing the results. However, I doubt that any of them expect the model railway business, as it currently exists, to really prosper for more than another decade or two. Future growth will depend on managed diversification into other fields.

 

I consider that the hobby, in general, will gradually return to where it was before we "baby boomers" made it mainstream - with most enthusiasts making things for themselves/each other, a (smaller) array of cottage industry suppliers offering kits and bits and more affluent enthusiasts paying skilled craftsmen to do it for them.

 

Model Railways won't die out, but the scene will definitely look a lot different two or three decades down the road. 

 

John

[Re6/6]

I'm glad that Paul has resurrected the some of the Blacksmiths etched range which for me is very good. Although there are no w/m castings (IIRC) these sort of items are now more easily obtained by using 3-D printing suppliers. These services may be perceived as expensive (a tenner for a pair of Dean bogie frames from Shapeways) but at least they are now obtainable. If the building of a nice model is required then the money has to be paid. Gone are they days of the £50 Lima engine.

 

Our hobby is moving into a different era now with the disappearance of so many small traders that we have relied upon over the years. The latest being Dave Cleal 's Mainly Trains who l have relied upon for so long for 'that vital part'. It is fortunate that the next generation like Andrew Hartshorn is continuing to supply all those essentials including the irreplaceable Comet range.

 

Injection moulded plastic kits would seem to be slowly on the way out so...onwards and upwards...

Edited January 23, 2017 by Re6/6

[Dunsignalling]

I agree with what you are saying, but on the opposite side, if you can produce a wagon as you are saying at £10-12 a go, there will be a market for them. Mainly because people will be able to afford them and if you do want that large number of items then it's the only way to get it.

 

Second point is that even if the quality was not up to the latest standards, if it's the only way you can get that volume, it will sell. I guess a bit like Hornby's Railroad range.

The big question is whether any new entrant thinks they can make a decent living out of selling basic wagon kits at £10-12 a go.

 

The second big question is whether selling at that level will actually shift more kits than selling them for three or four quid more. Is the market for wagon kits defined by customers wanting a certain number of wagons, or the number of wagon kits they can "afford" or "justify" at the going price? If the latter, will they still buy the number of wagons they want, but over a longer timescale? There may thus be no long-term advantage in selling cheaply.

 

Much of what the existing operators sell derives from tooling made several years ago that has long since paid for itself. Sales of their "back catalogue" products contribute to the investment in new moulds etc.

 

Someone starting from scratch in 4mm scale, without that foundation behind them, might well need to launch their products at more in the region of £15-20 each.  

 

It's pretty clear that a vociferous faction on here might find that unacceptable but what of the "silent majority"?

 

For anybody starting up (other than taking over an existing business), I reckon they'd be safer addressing an O Gauge market that will snap up wagon kits for £40-odd.    

 

John

Edited January 23, 2017 by Dunsignalling

[modelpara]

I would be interested in taking on the coppercraft molds and getting the machine sorted, however I don't believe that the current owner of them has any actual interest in selling.

 

There is a few other ranges that I would be interested in taking on but I fear the price they will be looking for as opposed to the price I would be happy to pay will be miles apart.

[Edwardian]

But actually what is todays market? Is the only stuff that people want to buy super high detailed? Are the only modellers out there the ones who want everything done for them, or is there a bigger crowd of modellers who actually don't mind buying cheap and spending time modelling and changing details to suit themselves?

 

If the answer is that only superdetailed items will sell, how come Dapol are still producing the old Airfix/Kitmaster stuff?

 

I believe that there is a market for these kits, and that its better to have something less detailed than nothing at all.

 

If we can discover what is broken and it is infact fixable (Maybe Ian K can help with this?) and if Clive is serious, I wouldn't mind giving a donation to him to help him with the costs. Sadly It won't be much but it would help.

 

Andy G

 

I think this is right.

 

In the good old days, there were more model shops, of course, I recall they all had little boxes of Coopercraft and Parkside wagons. 

 

The reason why, thank the Lord, I have a couple of Coopercraft O5s, for instance, is because every so often, I'd snap one up.

 

Nowadays, remaining model shops have racks of Dapol, ex-Airfix, kits, but not just model shops; the Art Shop I visit has a rack, too. Hobby Craft stocks Airfix and Revell, it might be persuaded to include other types and lines of plastic kit.

 

If you think about it, Dapol's distribution is quite impressive.

 

I don't see why a rack of Coopercraft, Parkside, Slaters or Cambrian kits could not be sold in this way, a way that means that one remains very much aware of them and that they are available.

 

In addition to the flash website, Amazon, the Ebay store and the stands at shows, having them on the High Street helps, because it advertises them.

 

If it were me, I'd market such products in an attractive box (always half the attraction of an Airfix kit) and include metal wheels, bearing cups, NEM couplings and transfers. And I'd have them everywhere. 

 

But, a lot of investment ...

 

I'd love to know how Dapol gets its products into as many retail outlets as it does.

[Clearwater]

The value of any business is its assets, brand and intellectual property. Clearly the Cambrian and park side ranges have an established and trusted brand. Undoubtedly that has a value. Perversely so does coopercraft. If it didn't, this thread wouldn't exist and be as lively... therefore the question for any putative purchaser is whether they can create the value themselves. How much time/effort do you need to spend to get a new brand known and rusted?

 

Evidence above suggests a lowish barrier to entry of buying a machine. To complete the picture, you need the mounds and probably the CADs. If you can do those yourself, it's a question of how much you value your time to build up the stock library vs paying someone for theirs. Ultimately a build vs buy analysis.

 

David

[hayfield]

I would be interested in taking on the coppercraft molds and getting the machine sorted, however I don't believe that the current owner of them has any actual interest in selling.

 

There is a few other ranges that I would be interested in taking on but I fear the price they will be looking for as opposed to the price I would be happy to pay will be miles apart.

 

 

Its a great pity there cannot be a collaboration between 2 parties, I would have thought working with someone else would not only benefit both parties but also modellers wanting the products.

 

Whilst I am not trying to cast dispersion's on either side, I guess its the same old story is thinking something is worth more than it is, against buying something cheap in a fire sale. Pity 2 parties cannot agree a way forward to benefit all concerned, lets face it they are not making money at the moment!!

[cheesysmith]

I would think that people who complain about the RTR models taking sales from the kits, perhaps it's time for it to work the other way? Looking at the prices Bachmann are charging for the HTA bogie hopper, I think there may be a market for a cheaper kit of said wagon, just using this as a example. Or how much are Hornby charging for the railroad HAA now? The more the prices of RTR goes up, the more there is a opening for someone smaller to compete with a good kit.

[Jol Wilkinson]

At the risk of repeating some of what I and others have may already written.

 

A far as I know CC bought the dies but not the machine they had been used on. His different design of machine wasn't suitable and the dies may have been modified to suit but it appears that something went wrong. What, nobody appears to actually know.

 

Etched parts are produced by the specialist etchers and "bought in". There is therefore little reason why these may not continue to be available. The matching castings may also have been bought in. Provided the moulds still exist and are in good condition the castings could still be produced. If the patterns/master still exist, new moulds could be produced and parts cast by one of the usual suppliers.

 

Regarding the overall state of the nation regarding kit building, no doubt it is in decline but there is still sufficient opportunity for a number of smaller specialist manufacturers to continue trading. They are able to do so partly by selling direct through mail order, online or at shows. It is very unlikely that any of them could sell via High Street outlets, as their margins are insufficient to provide the gross profit  levels that retailers need to make to cover their overheads , without major price increases.

 

The RTR suppliers have undoubtedly damaged the kit trade by producing much better models than preciously at what are really quite low prices. This has increased the number of collector/modellers who simply wish to amass a large collection of RTR models. There is an increasing unwillingness for people to make models, usually justified by an erroneous belief it is impossible to learn the necessary skills. As RTR prices seem to be on the rise with various world wide economic factors changing it might be that kit/scratch building would regain a little ground. However, I believe that most modellers are no longer capable of doing that, but there will also always be a minority group who don't want to simply follow the mainstream and will continue to make their own models.

[Fat Lieutenant]

I don't see why you cannot sell relatively inexpensive rolling stock kits on the High Street as well as online, at shows etc.  Dapol do.

 

Perhaps Dapol do it on the back of RTR.  Perhaps would-be injection moulders should consider an RTR option?

 

Why not revisit the Slaters idea of injection moulded loco kits?  You could supply a motorised chassis, bogie, etc and than anyone who can build an Airfix Spitfire can build a locomotive.

 

Why not have a tampo-printer that can print coach sides- painting and lining the sides of a coach is the only really difficult/skilled part of the process for many modellers. Otherwise they'd be just like a Ratio coach kit. Give them pre-printed sides and, again, anyone who can build an Airfix Spitfire can build a coach.

 

Getting the money together will be the issue, of course, it always is, but attractive and well-marketed and distributed creative products will sell.

 

I think a dash of imagination and anyone with the money to invest could make it happen.

 

You need to position them as more mainstream, that's all.

 

I'm in, as they say!

[Horsetan]

...There is an increasing unwillingness for people to make models, usually justified by an erroneous belief it is impossible to learn the necessary skills. ...

^^

This.

 

It's also the Can't Be Ars*d factor. Should we all just give up and pretend to do something else?

[hayfield]

I don't see why you cannot sell relatively inexpensive rolling stock kits on the High Street as well as online, at shows etc.  Dapol do.

 

Perhaps Dapol do it on the back of RTR.  Perhaps would-be injection moulders should consider an RTR option?

 

Why not revisit the Slaters idea of injection moulded loco kits?  You could supply a motorised chassis, bogie, etc and than anyone who can build an Airfix Spitfire can build a locomotive.

 

Why not have a tampo-printer that can print coach sides- painting and lining the sides of a coach is the only really difficult/skilled part of the process for many modellers. Otherwise they'd be just like a Ratio coach kit. Give them pre-printed sides and, again, anyone who can build an Airfix Spitfire can build a coach.

 

Getting the money together will be the issue, of course, it always is, but attractive and well-marketed and distributed creative products will sell.

 

I think a dash of imagination and anyone with the money to invest could make it happen.

 

You need to position them as more mainstream, that's all.

 

I'm in, as they say!

 

 

The problem with cheap kits being sold retail is the overheads the shops now have along with associated staffing costs, there has to be a greater margin now than ever before

[modelpara]

Its a great pity there cannot be a collaboration between 2 parties, I would have thought working with someone else would not only benefit both parties but also modellers wanting the products.

 

Whilst I am not trying to cast dispersion's on either side, I guess its the same old story is thinking something is worth more than it is, against buying something cheap in a fire sale. Pity 2 parties cannot agree a way forward to benefit all concerned, lets face it they are not making money at the moment!!

Sadly the problem with selling on ranges is on many occasions it has been seen that the seller has a vastly inflated sense of worth of the business/entity as they have intended for it to be their retirement fund / nest egg which these days is not realistic.