Cooper craft - Cautionary notes for customers - Its fate and thoughts on an alternative

[cheesysmith]

I keep thinking of the 99p coach magazine, and if it would be possible to do the same for a wagon. Maybe not RTR but ready to assemble? Also, speaking with my tight Yorkshire mans head on, would it be possible to get someone like DJmodels to make 00 wheelsets to Romford standards in china cheaper that in  the UK?

 

Also, as to pricing. let remember that in the UK that £6 is about a hours wage. If a kit cost £6 less than RTR myself would prefer to build a kit rather than spend a extra hour at work to afford  the RTR version. The pricing of RTR models must have a effect on kits, or why would the bargain hunters thread on here be so popular?

 

 

PS-If these kits are resurrected (I`m just awaiting my 6 numbers before I take them on), can we not have the name "phoenix" used in any way, as it does appear to have been the kiss of death so far. As it would be resurrecting the dead, can I suggest the use of "zombie kits".

[Dunsignalling]

I don't see why you cannot sell relatively inexpensive rolling stock kits on the High Street as well as online, at shows etc.  Dapol do.

 

Perhaps Dapol do it on the back of RTR.  Perhaps would-be injection moulders should consider an RTR option?

 

Why not revisit the Slaters idea of injection moulded loco kits?  You could supply a motorised chassis, bogie, etc and than anyone who can build an Airfix Spitfire can build a locomotive.

 

Why not have a tampo-printer that can print coach sides- painting and lining the sides of a coach is the only really difficult/skilled part of the process for many modellers. Otherwise they'd be just like a Ratio coach kit. Give them pre-printed sides and, again, anyone who can build an Airfix Spitfire can build a coach.

 

Getting the money together will be the issue, of course, it always is, but attractive and well-marketed and distributed creative products will sell.

 

I think a dash of imagination and anyone with the money to invest could make it happen.

 

You need to position them as more mainstream, that's all.

 

I'm in, as they say!

Dapol can do it because the kits in question were tooled by Kitmaster and Airfix  back in the 1960s and have paid for themselves many times over.

 

The printing process is a major part of the cost in making r-t-r and would add a hefty chunk to a kit price. 

 

New tooling costs money and that's the problem for new entrants, my guess is that anybody with a "business plan" involving £12 kits as the bedrock of his business isn't going to get far in attracting the necessary finance.

 

John

[uax6]

How about 'Kits and Co'?

 

Andy G

[Joseph_Pestell]

The big question is whether any new entrant thinks they can make a decent living out of selling basic wagon kits at £10-12 a go.

 

The second big question is whether selling at that level will actually shift more kits than selling them for three or four quid more. Is the market for wagon kits defined by customers wanting a certain number of wagons, or the number of wagon kits they can "afford" or "justify" at the going price? If the latter, will they still buy the number of wagons they want, but over a longer timescale? There may thus be no long-term advantage in selling cheaply.

 

Much of what the existing operators sell derives from tooling made several years ago that has long since paid for itself. Sales of their "back catalogue" products contribute to the investment in new moulds etc.

 

Someone starting from scratch in 4mm scale, without that foundation behind them, might well need to launch their products at more in the region of £15-20 each.  

 

It's pretty clear that a vociferous faction on here might find that unacceptable but what of the "silent majority"?

 

For anybody starting up (other than taking over an existing business), I reckon they'd be safer addressing an O Gauge market that will snap up wagon kits for £40-odd.    

 

John

Are you meaning kits from existing tooling or new tooling?

 

The Dapol kits must be the most amazing cash cow. Just a few pence worth of plastic, cheap packaging, and selling for £7.00.

 

But if you have to pay for new tooling (I was quoted £5,000 for wagon kits about 25 years ago), it's a whole different matter, needing to estimate how many you will need to sell to recover the development costs.

[30801]

I keep thinking of the 99p coach magazine, and if it would be possible to do the same for a wagon

 

But the 99p coach was a loss leader to draw people into paying eight quid for a buffers stop a few issues in.

[Edwardian]

I don't see why you cannot sell relatively inexpensive rolling stock kits on the High Street as well as online, at shows etc.  Dapol do.

 

Perhaps Dapol do it on the back of RTR.  Perhaps would-be injection moulders should consider an RTR option?

 

Why not revisit the Slaters idea of injection moulded loco kits?  You could supply a motorised chassis, bogie, etc and than anyone who can build an Airfix Spitfire can build a locomotive.

 

Why not have a tampo-printer that can print coach sides- painting and lining the sides of a coach is the only really difficult/skilled part of the process for many modellers. Otherwise they'd be just like a Ratio coach kit. Give them pre-printed sides and, again, anyone who can build an Airfix Spitfire can build a coach.

 

Getting the money together will be the issue, of course, it always is, but attractive and well-marketed and distributed creative products will sell.

 

I think a dash of imagination and anyone with the money to invest could make it happen.

 

You need to position them as more mainstream, that's all.

 

I'm in, as they say!

 

Some great ideas there.

 

I think if you started with quality 'legacy' range or two, like Parkside or Cambrian, if you can upgrade them as necessary to complete them and market them effectively, there is no reason they could not be everywhere Dapol is, and other places, too, and make margin.

 

This is the springboard for mew items, including replacing things we have lost in other ranges. 

 

Post-Brexit Britain will never prosper if we think "can't, can't, can't".

Edited January 23, 2017 by Edwardian

[Coach bogie]

I don't see why you cannot sell relatively inexpensive rolling stock kits on the High Street as well as online, at shows etc.  Dapol do.

 

Perhaps Dapol do it on the back of RTR.  Perhaps would-be injection moulders should consider an RTR option?

 

Why not revisit the Slaters idea of injection moulded loco kits?  You could supply a motorised chassis, bogie, etc and than anyone who can build an Airfix Spitfire can build a locomotive.

 

Why not have a tampo-printer that can print coach sides- painting and lining the sides of a coach is the only really difficult/skilled part of the process for many modellers. Otherwise they'd be just like a Ratio coach kit. Give them pre-printed sides and, again, anyone who can build an Airfix Spitfire can build a coach.

 

Getting the money together will be the issue, of course, it always is, but attractive and well-marketed and distributed creative products will sell.

 

I think a dash of imagination and anyone with the money to invest could make it happen.

 

You need to position them as more mainstream, that's all.

 

I'm in, as they say!

 

Excellent. Let us know when your first kits are ready for sale!

 

Mike Wiltshire

[billbedford]

A far as I know CC bought the dies but not the machine they had been used on. His different design of machine wasn't suitable and the dies may have been modified to suit but it appears that something went wrong. What, nobody appears to actually know.

 

 

I don't think that is what happened. As far as I can make out there was a deal where by both CC and Slater's were to produce there own mouldings but CC were to market the Slater's 4mm kits and Slater's  market the CC 7mm kits. Unfortunately the deal fell through, presumably because CC couldn't supply the kits Slater's were expecting.

[modelpara]

I'm putting my actions where my mouth is and I have reached out to one range that I feel cannot disappear into the night (and in all likelihood will be easier to resurrect than Coppercraft) in the hope that the funds from sale from that range will help to revive Coopercraft.

 

They would of course end up under a different name but at least if it all works out they would still be available.

[billbedford]

Why not revisit the Slaters idea of injection moulded loco kits?  You could supply a motorised chassis, bogie, etc and than anyone who can build an Airfix Spitfire can build a locomotive.

 

Why not have a tampo-printer that can print coach sides- painting and lining the sides of a coach is the only really difficult/skilled part of the process for many modellers. Otherwise they'd be just like a Ratio coach kit. Give them pre-printed sides and, again, anyone who can build an Airfix Spitfire can build a coach.

 

Getting the money together will be the issue, of course, it always is, but attractive and well-marketed and distributed creative products will sell.

 

I think a dash of imagination and anyone with the money to invest could make it happen.

 

Except that anyone with the money to do this will get a better return by commissioning RTR model from Chinese factories, which is exactly what has been happening of the last few years.

[billbedford]

It's also the Can't Be Ars*d factor. Should we all just give up and pretend to do something else?

 

 

I thought that what this thread is all about.....

[Edwardian]

Except that anyone with the money to do this will get a better return by commissioning RTR model from Chinese factories, which is exactly what has been happening of the last few years.

 

Ah, where's the fun in that!

 

If people are giving up on kits, that needs to be addressed.  I don't think they are generally.  If it's just model railways, we need to do something about that.  Fat Lieutenant, I admire the positive and creative approach you bring.

 

Generally, we have to find a way of making manufacturing in the UK work.

 

Especially now.

 

It might seem to some to preclude the commercial success of a venture, but I would not feel easy starting a manufacturing business where the product was manufactured anywhere outside the UK. 

 

Difficult, I realise, and I wonder how much Dapol make at Chirk as opposed to in the Far East.

 

Foreign factories are not issue free. The major manufacturers suffer delays and there have been quality control issues.  The seeming inability to translate an impressive CAD to an accurate EP for Oxford seems to have been an issue in dealing with overseas partners.

 

It's all very impressive for the Rapido boss to have the relationship he has fostered, but that is not necessarily all manufacturers' experience, and I would be interested in making model trains, but not necessarily in learning Cantonese and flying out to China every 5 minutes.

 

In a week when Trump (who, admittedly, is a ghastly buffoon) proclaims a "Buy American, Hire American" rule, we remain convinced that we can do nothing here and that "China" is the answer to everything.

[modelpara]

I'm putting my actions where my mouth is and I have reached out to one range that I feel cannot disappear into the night (and in all likelihood will be easier to resurrect than Coppercraft) in the hope that the funds from sale from that range will help to revive Coopercraft.

They would of course end up under a different name but at least if it all works out they would still be available.

Btw if anyone else is interested in getting involved then please do pm me, I am not interested in this becoming a one man band to run into the same problems in a few years.

[Edwardian]

I'm putting my actions where my mouth is and I have reached out to one range that I feel cannot disappear into the night (and in all likelihood will be easier to resurrect than Coppercraft) in the hope that the funds from sale from that range will help to revive Coopercraft.

 

They would of course end up under a different name but at least if it all works out they would still be available.

 

Sorry, missed this in the excitement.  You will have a PM shortly.

[billbedford]

I think if you started with quality 'legacy' range or two, like Parkside or Cambrian, if you can upgrade them as necessary to complete them and market them effectively, there is no reason they could not be everywhere Dapol is, and other places, too, and make margin.

 

 

Except that at least 60% of the income will come from newly produced kits so whoever takes on the 'legacy' ranges will need all the mould making skills needed to produce new moulds. Of course if someone had the necessary skills and capital to invest they would be better off, in general, starting from scratch. With one or two exceptions old model ranges have been poisoned chalices to whoever has taken them over. Those exceptions have almost always depended on the seller being willing to offer the buyer resources and even training to ensure a satisfactory take over.

[billbedford]

Ah, where's the fun in that!

 

 

Fun for who exactly?

 

If you think you can take over a small business for the fun it will provide, I would suggest that you will be setting yourself up for failure before you start.

Edited January 23, 2017 by billbedford

[kandc_au]

It's all very impressive for the Rapido boss to have the relationship he has fostered, but that is not necessarily all manufacturers' experience, and I would be interested in making model trains, but not necessarily in learning Cantonese and flying out to China every 5 minutes.

 

In a week when Trump (who, admittedly, is a ghastly buffoon) proclaims a "Buy American, Hire American" rule, we remain convinced that we can do nothing here and that "China" is the answer to everything.

 

Alas  China isn't the answer to everything.

First it was Japan then the wages got to costly,

Then Korea......and ditto

Now China and wages are already rising.

There has been an attempt from India and that company got well and truly burned with abominable quality control and poor quality overall.

 

Khris

[Edwardian]

Fun for who exactly?

 

If you think you can take over a small business for the fun it will provide, I would suggest that you will be setting yourself up for failure before to start.

 

Ah, if only I had the money to prove you wrong!

 

Even if it were less money than I started with!

 

[sigh]

[Horsetan]

Ah, if only I had the money to prove you wrong!

 

But isn't model railways all about fantasy? Hence fantasy economics?

[Edwardian]

But isn't model railways all about fantasy? Hence fantasy economics?

 

Agree.

 

Fantasy, and I would add, speculation.

 

We're very good at that.

[Re6/6]

...............................Whilst I am not trying to cast dispersion's on either side, I guess its the same old story is thinking something is worth more than it is, against buying something cheap in a fire sale. Pity 2 parties cannot agree a way forward to benefit all concerned, lets face it they are not making money at the moment!!

 

Whilst probably not applicable to the subject of this thread, it is very true that many of the 'cottage industries' owners that offer their businesses for sale seem to regard them as their nest egg for retirement and seem reluctant to sell it at anything less than their perceived 'value' to them. 

 

lf I, as a 'one man band', were looking to buy l wouldn't want to take on worn out injection moulding machinery which l would assume that their only value would be for scrap'. I doubt that many would unless they have very deep pockets. The fact that Dapol still produce 'Kitmaster' stuff l would've thought has something to do with their third (?) place in the British model railway manufacturing business and the relatively large company resources that they would have.

 

A sad state of affairs for us with the demise of so many small firms and suppliers, but there it is and we'll have to get on with it in the future.

[ruggedpeak]

I would think that people who complain about the RTR models taking sales from the kits, perhaps it's time for it to work the other way? Looking at the prices Bachmann are charging for the HTA bogie hopper, I think there may be a market for a cheaper kit of said wagon, just using this as a example. Or how much are Hornby charging for the railroad HAA now? The more the prices of RTR goes up, the more there is a opening for someone smaller to compete with a good kit.

Hornby have twigged that people want decent length trains and cheaper wagons, so there is easy money knocking out cheap but relevant Railroad wagons - the 2017 Hornby HAA is £8 at Hattons pre-order. Who can make a kit for that price? If they shift (and at only a few hundred quid for a full MGR excluding motive power I think they will) we may see some more cheaper RTR. They are also re-releasing VIX Ferry Wagons at sub-£20 retail, much less than what is being asked for newly tooled wagons.

[Jol Wilkinson]

I don't think that is what happened. As far as I can make out there was a deal where by both CC and Slater's were to produce there own mouldings but CC were to market the Slater's 4mm kits and Slater's  market the CC 7mm kits. Unfortunately the deal fell through, presumably because CC couldn't supply the kits Slater's were expecting.

 

Bill,

 

I believe you are correct about the marketing arrangement between CC and Slaters.

 

My information about the dies and moulding machine came from someone who had been part of the story in earlier years and whose range became absorbed into the CC empire. A look at the CC website;

 

http://cooper-craft.co.uk/Pages/2/About-Us.html

 

shows a moulding machine which is somewhat different from those pictured  in other postings in this thread and supports the information I was given. If the problem is with the machine itself, then it could surely have been sorted by now. One solution would be to buy a replacement of the type previously used by the former owners, as these don't seem excessively costly. However, if the moulds have been modified then they might not be usable with the original machines any more.

 

Wherever the truth lies, I feel that it's now too late for a happy ending to this saga.

 

Jol

[Joseph_Pestell]

But isn't model railways all about fantasy? Hence fantasy economics?

No, that's football.

[Jol Wilkinson]

Agree.

 

Fantasy, and I would add, speculation.

 

We're very good at that.

 

The hobby has become like football or other sports.

 

Lots of supporters who think they know how to play, coach, manage, etc. better  than those actually doing it. Because they'll never get (or take) the opportunity to do so, they can never be shown to be wrong. 

Edited January 23, 2017 by LNWRmodeller