NEW OO gauge Crowdfunded Class 92 initiative

[jjb1970]

What negativity? People have been no more negative to DJM than they have been to any of the other producers. What negativity there has been has been as a result of entirely legitimate questions which would have been asked of any other producer.

[chris p bacon]

I find it surprising the amount of negativity regarding Dave....

 

Unfortunately, due to extreme negativity displayed towards him, I can understand why he no longer wishes to be active on the forums... it must have been difficult reading some of the venemous comments...

 

 

 

 

I do understand why people are questioning him. Deposits were taken with no T & C's and a seemingly blissful ignorance of the consequences of 'crowdfunding' and how it fits within consumer protection.

I also wouldn't call it 'extreme' and I have certainly not seen anything venomous posted about him, quite the opposite in fact.

 

He has put out an update to those who have invested in the project, look at the negativity that has generated.... really???

 

 

Again why is questioning something seen as 'negative' ? You have people who are interested in the project and yet information is kept back even though it's not commercially sensitive. 

I would suggest that running a business where you interacted with your customer base freely one month and then withdrew with no contact the next might make people question more.

[black and decker boy]

So a question that could be asked is what price was being paid by DJM to get such access (and with it advertising) on the Commercial Forum that is RMWeb and has such access now proven unaffordable given the limited cash flow going through the business with so few models in production & selling.

 

Clearly other new suppliers have come on board and no doubt are buying the same access privileges to showcase their products and services.

[njee20]

It's been discussed before, but I understand DJM paid for the forum area, not to be a member. There remains a forum area, so I presume he's still paying something.

[letterspider]

What negativity? People have been no more negative to DJM than they have been to any of the other producers. What negativity there has been has been as a result of entirely legitimate questions which would have been asked of any other producer.

 

jjb1970 - it is not the questions that were the problem.

 

REMOVED BY THE AUTHOR -. I don't believe any of this is lies or made up, he was perhaps too honest with the RMWeb community.

 

I would have understood if he had walked away from this project but he didn't. Yes I would have lost my money but I knew - we ALL knew what we were signing up to when we gambled our money on Dave and that is what crowdfunding ultimately is.

 

 

On the other hand the intolerance and venom of some members in the context of the above has simply been inhuman, unkind and shameful trolling.

 

Why would he want to read any more of that?

 

Now the core community of supporters of the project will get updated by newsletter but I think this is a pity as this Class 92 topic benefitted greatly from his look in and of course there are new modellers and new potential customers coming on to the forum all the time.

Edited December 6, 2018 by letterspider

[Andy Y]

 I understand DJM paid for the forum area

 

He didn't. He paid for banner adverts for a short period.

 

Dave was cheated by a manufacturer he was working with - who kept monies AND his CAD files. 

 

Evidence? Cheated is a very explicit phrase.

[njee20]

My apologies Andy - I remembered a minor 'tête-à-tête' between you two relating to something on the matter!

 

I don't want to perpetuate any feelings of ill will or anything like that, but we seem to go over the same ground time and time again. My thoughts on the last time we did this:

 

The problem as I see it, without wanting to go over this well-trodden ground is that some people have misgivings about the project and thus haven't stumped up the cash.

 

Those without the misgivings have stumped up the cash. Now, the problem occurs that that group are saying "you've not paid, so shut up and stop trolling Dave", but they have a vested interest. If people didn't have the misgivings then a number would have likely bought a model. This makes the misgivings extremely relevant, and doesn't make them trolls whatsoever. They'd be pretty daft to say "I've paid, FYI I think there are these problems...".

 

Obviously the people who have paid have accepted any potential risks in their mind, so you just end up with a pointless conflict which you're never going to resolve. Neither opinion is any more or less valid, and it's actually no more helpful that a handful who have 'invested' write off any one who hasn't as a "troll" than the actual questioning of what's going on. The project isn't going to fail because people talk about it online, embargoes on comms have certainly generated conversation though. It may fail because people are put off from investing based on things they read, but I've not seen anything that's particularly unfair, so given the sums involved I see no issue with people raising these concerns.

 

What is undeniable is that Dave seems to be a particular magnet for this sort of attention. The above was actually posted by me on the APT thread, but now seems just as relevant here. We've got people talking about trolling and venom and what not, essentially because they've not signed up and are deigning to raise (what they would suggest are) legitimate questions about the project. Clearly Dave has had enough of this and is hoping to put his money where his mouth is and deliver some products, which is laudable, and I look forward to the 92 coming out so I can buy one.

[jjb1970]

jjb1970 - it is not the questions that were the problem.

 

Dave was cheated by a manufacturer he was working with - who kept monies AND his CAD files. He took a financial hit but decided to keep going. He also suffered an unexpected bereavement of a close family member and on top of this investigated for suspected money laundering by Paypal. I don't believe any of this is lies or made up, he was perhaps too honest with the RMWeb community.

 

I would have understood if he had walked away from this project but he didn't. Yes I would have lost my money but I knew - we ALL knew what we were signing up to when we gambled our money on Dave and that is what crowdfunding ultimately is.

 

 

On the other hand the intolerance and venom of some members in the context of the above has simply been inhuman, unkind and shameful trolling.

 

Why would he want to read any more of that?

 

Now the core community of supporters of the project will get updated by newsletter but I think this is a pity as this Class 92 topic benefitted greatly from his look in and of course there are new modellers and new potential customers coming on to the forum all the time.

 

I can accept something happened between DJM and the factory but we have one version of events, from DJM. At the risk of rocking the boat, it is not normally wise to accept a version of events from a single affected party in the case of commercial disputes. Therefore I don't think anybody knows what happened there other than the involved parties, one of whom hasn't commented on what happened (well, I'm not aware of any such comments). Despite a lot of horror stories, China isn't a complete wild west of lawlessness and factories generally respect contracts therefore I am not inclined to accept anything at face value based on a single version of events.

 

On the other points, I haven't seen any venom. Robust discussion yes, but no more robust than Bachmann has faced regarding prices, product delays etc, or pretty much everything made by Oxford (don't mention the Dean Goods or Mk.3 coach colours), the never ending saga of Hornby's financial performance, rotating door of higher management, design clever, product delays etc, various Heljan issues (don't mention the Garrett running reliability...). DJM has faced nothing that all other manufacturers have faced and which are generally considered fair comment and debate when concerning other producers. If a company is asking for customers to fund their product development via crowd funding then questions around that companies performance are perfectly reasonable and if a company is asking customers to fund their business via that particular model then they should have answers to such questions.

[letterspider]

I can accept something happened between DJM and the factory but we have one version of events, from DJM. At the risk of rocking the boat, it is not normally wise to accept a version of events from a single affected party in the case of commercial disputes. Therefore I don't think anybody knows what happened there other than the involved parties, one of whom hasn't commented on what happened (well, I'm not aware of any such comments). Despite a lot of horror stories, China isn't a complete wild west of lawlessness and factories generally respect contracts therefore I am not inclined to accept anything at face value based on a single version of events.

 

On the other points, I haven't seen any venom. Robust discussion yes, but no more robust than Bachmann has faced regarding prices, product delays etc, or pretty much everything made by Oxford (don't mention the Dean Goods or Mk.3 coach colours), the never ending saga of Hornby's financial performance, rotating door of higher management, design clever, product delays etc, various Heljan issues (don't mention the Garrett running reliability...). DJM has faced nothing that all other manufacturers have faced and which are generally considered fair comment and debate when concerning other producers. If a company is asking for customers to fund their product development via crowd funding then questions around that companies performance are perfectly reasonable and if a company is asking customers to fund their business via that particular model then they should have answers to such questions.

 

I want to see a really nicely detailed Class 92. I've blindly given money to a total stranger who seems to be a very good artisan in OO gauge and I am happy to wait a year or 2.

 

Apparently this is a lot more sensible than the way most countries are run.

 

In order to keep reality knocking at my door, would someone kindly post some images of Class 92's, especially being dragged by diesels over unpowered sections. Please drip feed these images every one to two weeks.

 

Thank you!

Edited December 3, 2018 by letterspider

[Damo666]

I certainly do not wish to get involved between the two sides here, as I know little or nothing of the facts, only what I deduce from posts and email. However I do have two observations.

 

DJM seems to be essentially an individual, (maybe he has some admin support, or CAD draughting services he can call upon). But he's not of the caliber of Bachmann, Hornby et all. So I for one am prepared to give him a lot of latitude. I knew (at least I think I knew) what I was getting into when I put down my deposit. A long wait and a reasonable hope of getting an excellent product from someone who has demonstrated the ability and quality before.

 

I took a chance, a risk, so I'm not going to criticise him unless he runs away leaving me high and dry. We do not seem to be in that situation.

 

China isn't a complete wild west of lawlessness and factories generally respect contracts therefore I am not inclined to accept anything at face value based on a single version of events.

 

Although I have no practical experience of working with Chinese factories, one company who we sub-let space to in our office does, and it certainly does seem 'interesting' from the conversations we have. The benefits are that you can get an excellent product when you know how to work with them, but for the novice there are plenty of pitfalls. Yes, not a 'complete' wildness, but pitfalls for the unwary. Recommend this book for anyone interested in knowing how to do business in China. Bet the big-boys had all this worked out by trial and error in the past. I sympathise with any individual trying to do the same.

[dogbox321]

Well actually, when crowdfunding started "Dave" suggested paying via credit card, for the extra protection it offered......

 

Regards,

 

C.

[Jack374]

Aside from the criticism, be it constructive or otherwise, I emailed Dave via both his "@djmodels.co.uk" & "@hotmail.com" accounts (the latter from which the latest update was sent) on Friday. He replied this morning. I consider a weekend to reply to an email a good turn around.

 

In case anyone finds it useful, I asked him which model I had ordered and whether I could change. His response:

No problem in changing your choice. When I ask for the 2nd deposit, you can start your account and simply pay for the version you want, and that will then be your default choice.

Jack.

[sorabain]

 

Dave was cheated by a manufacturer he was working with - who kept monies AND his CAD files...

 

 

I've never quite understood how the CAD files could have been lost. Are they not just like any other file that you can keep an arbitrary number of copies of? Is there some kind of arrangement you have to make with manufacturers where they maintain the rights to CAD files used when signing up with them (seems strange)?

[chris p bacon]

I've never quite understood how the CAD files could have been lost. Are they not just like any other file that you can keep an arbitrary number of copies of? Is there some kind of arrangement you have to make with manufacturers where they maintain the rights to CAD files used when signing up with them (seems strange)?

 

 

That is possible.

 

 A scenario where that could happen is if a company that manufactures an item also designs it, this means that the design takes into account the manufacturing process and machinery of the company and to see progress you view the files with a reader.   On the 'King' thread any screen shots are viewed on a free CAD service not the actual program the design has used, this is to try and stop any theft of what is Intellectual property' and would mean that the manufacturing company keeps ownership of any design until payment is made.

 

As stated before China is not the Wild West when it comes to business and trading.

[Andy Y]

the manufacturing company keeps ownership of any design until payment is made.

 

[sorabain]

That is possible.

 

 A scenario where that could happen is if a company that manufactures an item also designs it, this means that the design takes into account the manufacturing process and machinery of the company and to see progress you view the files with a reader.   On the 'King' thread any screen shots are viewed on a free CAD service not the actual program the design has used, this is to try and stop any theft of what is Intellectual property' and would mean that the manufacturing company keeps ownership of any design until payment is made.

 

As stated before China is not the Wild West when it comes to business and trading.

 

Cheers that make sense. I always thought the CAD work was done separately from the factory (e.g. by DJ himself), as they would have the prototype knowledge etc. 

Edited December 4, 2018 by sorabain

[pheaton]

Well actually, when crowdfunding started "Dave" suggested paying via credit card, for the extra protection it offered......

 

Regards,

 

C.

which is poor advice because section 75 does not cover you under crowdfunding scenarios, and neither does paypal protection. The only comeback on crowdfunding is when the crowdfunding has been done on a bona-fide crowdfunding platform.

 

personally however if a retailer is telling me to rely on section 75.....however accurate the advice may be alarm bells would be ringing....

Edited December 4, 2018 by pheaton

[The Stationmaster]

Cheers that make sense. I always thought the CAD work was done separately from the factory (e.g. by DJ himself), as they would have the prototype knowledge etc. 

 

If it's anything like a model which I got involved with (which was commissioned through DJM) the process works like this -

 

The end customer, meaning the commissioner, produces a specification regarding level of detail etc including photographs and drawings

 

From that information the factory which will produce the model carries out detail design such as that of the mechanism and prepares the CAD.

 

The commissioner (ideally) then checks the CADs - usually this is an iterative process as CAD changes are made - and requests the factory, via DJM, to make the necessary changes.  This can be an extended process for all sorts of reasons.

 

Once the CADs are signed off the factory produces either 3D prints or proceeds to initial tooling and produces test shots and when they are signed off the next stage is full tooling.

 

After that tooling is complete test models, assemblies, etc right up to complete models are sent to the commissioner for approval and once they are approved the next stage is decoration samples.

 

Once everything is checked and approved (and the factory has been reminded which detail variant parts go with what livery etc) production is authorised to commence.

 

If things go really well and the full research data is there some factories can get through that lot is about a year but often it will take longer for various (good) reasons.  Similarly payment terms tend to vary but usually there are stage payments as various parts of the work are finished and signed-off although I'm aware that at least one Chinese factory has been prepared to accept a degree of risk in order to get new customers and has backloaded all the payments onto the tail end (basically the production stage) of the work.

 

The key to it all and achieving the smoothest path of progress is getting initial specs and detail information right and, ideally, doing the job up to CAD stage yourself although as far as I'm aware the only concern doing their own CAD work is Accurascale (among what I would term the 'smaller producers').  And as in any process keeping the chain of communication as short as possible is always beneficial to both the accuracy of the final model(s) and the speed of development, email to China for, example, minor changes or confirmation is no more difficult than emailing anyone else because most of the design folk seem to at least have a good understanding of written English.

 

Incidentally, and inevitably in view of what is involved, any preparatory 3-D scanning is carried out by a specialist contractor and they will adjust the results of their scan up to a level where it can be used to assist in producing the production CAD work.  But scanning has its risks and should always be backed up by detail photos plus, ideally detailed, scale, prototype drawings. Some projects have suffered considerable delay due to lack of drawings while I understand that 3-D scans are not always used.  

 

Obviously where the model is of something which no longer exists the biggest part of the research task can be the finding of suitable drawings (and checking their accuracy because original drawings sometimes might not even be absolutely right for an engine as built let alone one altered in later life).  Overall the research stage is considerably simpler, and usually quicker, if whatever is being modelled still exists - provided any modifications can be properly assessed and dated.

Edited December 4, 2018 by The Stationmaster

[jjb1970]

It is quite possible that the Chinese factory is the aggrieved party who have lost out. Unfortunately without full disclosure we just don't know, but people should be careful about just accepting assertions from one side of a dispute.

[reevesthecat]

I have had 4 requests to send the email on from people who didn't receive the email. I have happily sent it on but won't be doing anymore. The question is why they didn't get the email in the first place. Has their email changed or has Dave lost them. How many people are unaware of the email and who won't know when they can pay their second deposit when that email comes. I think Dave may need a change to his communication policy.

[SRman]

I have had 4 requests to send the email on from people who didn't receive the email. I have happily sent it on but won't be doing anymore. The question is why they didn't get the email in the first place. Has their email changed or has Dave lost them. How many people are unaware of the email and who won't know when they can pay their second deposit when that email comes. I think Dave may need a change to his communication policy.

 

 

I went straight to the source, using the contact details on the DJM website, seeing as I hadn't received the email but had paid the original deposit. I got a quick response from Dave with the news update attached.

[dpgibbons]

section 75 does not cover you under crowdfunding scenarios, and neither does paypal protection. 

 

 

There was a lengthy discourse on this in another thread ("Crowdfunding, or Minimising Risk?"), which concluded that UK customers of a crowdfunding project would likely - crowdfunder disclaimers not withstanding - retain their normal consumer rights to a refund etc, and would probably also qualify for protection for credit card payments under S75. 

[jjb1970]

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/133839-crowdfunding-or-minimising-risk/

[dpgibbons]

DJM processes credit card payments via a third party processing company (Stripe), so S75 protection will likely not apply. 

[classy52]

Does anyone know what the current status of this Class 92 project is at the moment?

Since Dave has stepped away this forum for whatever reasons (maybe getting too hot) and now communicating directly to some of his crowd funding customers via email I can't find anything about the current status of the Class 92 even on his own website, sorry but has this project now become a closely guarded secret???

Obviously I've not put up any money towards this project, have my own reasons, thus you could easily say shut up & move on because I have no vested interest but I actually do since Kernow are advertising and inviting pre-orders for the DJM Class 92 thus to me that isn't any different to any other pre-order that I have done before hence why I would like to know where it's at and expected eta for delivery.

I've got a decent rake of ICA's thus flipping a coin on whether to buy the new Hatton's Class 66 in EWS or one of DJM's Class 92's so yeah I'm a potential customer via the Kernow route.