NEW OO gauge Crowdfunded Class 92 initiative

[7013]

Agree with #1023. I remember when Dave first started there was a lot of speculation with Daves ambitious program. Dave has produced the goods on some, cancelled others and been beaten by others to deliver models. I think that Dave made a rod for his own back by being in regular contact via this site, the expectation was that this would continue, but as we know things change.

The problem is that there ‘appears’ to be very little progress on a number of fronts as DJModels have experienced, this inevitably calls into question whether he can deliver. DJModels to all intent and purpose is a one man band and Dave has been nothing if not ambitious. Had we seen a regular flow of models then I am sure peoples attitudes would be different. If you go by the maxim you are only as good as your last model, for a small outfit like DJModels this is particularly appropriate, especially where margins are tight. I bought a Cl71 which is a good model, but is it better than the Hornby model?. I wonder sometimes about making so many announcements APT etc. Whilst you have very little in the shop window as it were to give an idea of the standard on offer. I would probably buy an OO Cl92 if it came on the market, but a I am not convinced it will be a DJModels one that reaches the shelves first. I hope I am wrong.

[adb968008]

Using ppsts on this site for reference;

 

The timeline of Revolutions looks like

 

A. October 2016 Announcement

B. November 2016 CAD (A + 1 months)

C. June 2017 EP (B + 7 months)

D. November 2018 Final EP. (C +17 months)

 

By comparison..

 

A. August 2016 Announcement

Bi. November 2016 n gauge CAD (A + 3 months)- coinciding with the Revolution announcement.

Bii. April 2017 oo gauge CAD (A + 8 months)

Xi. —- (November 2017 a 3D print appeared).

Xii. ——-(July 2018 references to factory change).

Xiii. ———-(October 2018 last public post on this site by the designer)

Xiii. ————- (November 2018 same or similar stage 3D print seen at Warley)

C. Time to EP currently stands at Bi + 25 months, Bii + 20 months

 

When this was first announced it was of no interest to me. In the last 3 years ive grown an interest in modern image, and last November did an overnight charter with 92038 to Blackpool. I see DJ is offering 92038 in Caledonian, I see other retailers offer a different 92 in Caledonian, without up front risk.

 

In the intervening time period the class 92s for GBRF have acquired Dellner couplers in readiness for mk5’s, I dont know if this will be incorporated.

 

If I used Revolution as a yardstick, it would suggest at least 2 years away to a delivery.

Without information or visible progress I dont know what to think, but a Hornby one is available now, just not in the same livery, but their well known researcher intimated much time at Scotrail recently, and Mk5’s are Scottish as are the locos that will pull them, on that basis roll on Jan 8th announcements before I even think about what to decide.

Edited December 7, 2018 by adb968008

[sanspareil]

I wasnt that close to the front to hear fully but at Warley on his stand I heard Dave explaining about very large financial losses that occurred and so on (I would have thought enough to sink a small outfit). There was supposedly an email going out to those already subscribed to this project IIRC 1 week after Warley, has that been received?

[BR(S)]

I wasnt that close to the front to hear fully but at Warley on his stand I heard Dave explaining about very large financial losses that occurred and so on (I would have thought enough to sink a small outfit). There was supposedly an email going out to those already subscribed to this project IIRC 1 week after Warley, has that been received?

An update email has been received. This will be added to Dave's website, where communication with him should occur. See posts over last couple of pages for people talking about the update.

 

Could write a sizeable posting about all this, but can be summarised as follows:

 

I have on order 3 x 92s and 1 x 5 car APT. Anyone who knows me will tell you I am as risk-averse as they come, yet I'm very relaxed about these orders. So I'm either being incredibly stupid or there are certain people making postings with their axe. While I know from having followed this thread in detail others will disagree, but I can only call it as I see it.

Edited December 7, 2018 by BR(S)

[brittannia]

I wasnt that close to the front to hear fully but at Warley on his stand I heard Dave explaining about very large financial losses that occurred and so on (I would have thought enough to sink a small outfit). There was supposedly an email going out to those already subscribed to this project IIRC 1 week after Warley, has that been received?

 

In my case as I have pointed out in an earlier post in this forum, I have had no contact from DJ Models since January 2017, I have since e-mailed DJ Models giving dates on which I have deposited money on 2 class 92s,I await a reply to see why my details appear to have gone missing, unfortunately it does make wonder whether to go any further with this project.

[brittannia]

In my case as I have pointed out in an earlier post in this forum, I have had no contact from DJ Models since January 2017, I have since e-mailed DJ Models giving dates on which I have deposited money on 2 class 92s,I await a reply to see why my details appear to have gone missing, unfortunately it does make wonder whether to go any further with this project.

 

Since I put the above post in the forum, I have had a reply from Dave, stating any emails he sent were rejected by the server and that this also the case of a number of other crowdfunders, I have emailed Dave back confirming my email address he understandably wondered whether I would receive his reply, I think windows server may have something to do with the problem, as windows seem to list mistakenly my email address as outlook, Anyway Dave has promised to send me the updates etc. Hopefully my misgivings will wrong

[BR(S)]

It can't be said enough: if you need to contact Dave, send a message via his website. Don't wait for him to hopefully see things on here.

 

https://djmodels.co.uk

[newbryford]

It can't be said enough: if you need to contact Dave, send a message via his website. Don't wait for him to hopefully see things on here.

 

https://djmodels.co.uk

 

I did - 3/4 days ago.

No reply yet.

[njee20]

Still nothing on Dave’s website about this announcement. I’m increasingly convinced Dave is trying to sabotage his own business!

[classy52]

I only come to this thread now out of morbid curiosity, like slowly driving past a road incident and you can't help to look.

[The Stationmaster]

Some manufacturers/commissioners etc have long made it their policy to report on progress with announced models when there is progress to report, and only when there is progress to report.  This strikes me as a sensible policy although it very often means there are frequently requests for information on progress, especially on long announced items about which nothing has been heard for some time - this perhaps represents frustration, or maybe concern, or very often happens simply because the 'net provides a means of saying so in public.  But at the end of the day presumably nothing said means there is nothing new to say.

 

We know, I hope, that models take time to develop at that different manufacturers/commissioners tend to announce at very different stages in the development of a model thus some might match or exceed the old Hornby situation of bringing everything to market within the calendar year for which they are announced - but even Hornby are now finding that difficult to achieve, for whatever reason.  But whatever timing of announcement for us, the end buyers, patience has to remain a virtue.

 

The situation is of course rather different when a manufacturer or commissioner is more communicative on progress or intended timescales because they are saddling themselves with two parallel tasks - firstly keeping project development on that stated course and secondly reporting progress (which customers will obviously measure against that previously stated timescale).  This is where timely communication becomes critical (especially, in my view, if money has been paid) and it is then up to the manager of the project to communicate using whatever means they have chosen.   But there is one key point about communication, however it is carried out, and that is that if you don't communicate in the way you said you were going to communicate then customer concerns will inevitably follow.  And back to my first point - it should be as easy to say 'no progress since my last communication' (and maybe say why?) than it is to say nothing at all, and any message will probably be more reassuring than no message at all.

[njee20]

The frustrating thing here is that there was an update, but people were barred from sharing it until an arbitrary deadline. That has now passed and still there has been no wider sharing of the information.

 

How on earth is Dave expecting to drum up more business if he can’t even post information online when there is information?! Surely the osmotic nature of communication through the internet is invaluable for people and companies like Dave, stifling it seems crazy. I’m a big advocate of ‘not saying something for the sake of it’, but that’s not the score here.

[sorabain]

technically the email said "can i ask that you do not release this info until next sunday, to give everyone a chance to view and digest the news contained here"

 

Sunday has gone, so here's the text of the document (original was a PDF with prototype pics)

 

"OO gauge class 92 product update Hi everyone, After a tumultuous last 18 months, I am pleased to be able to give you an update on the Class 92 model in OO gauge. As you are probably no doubt aware, a ‘falling out’ ( to put it kindly) with the ‘old’ factory left me with no choice but to write off the OO cad/can and proceed with a more reliable one who literally fell into my lap. These guys know what they are doing, having produced American outline for very reputable companies for many years now. Their cad/cam is now finished and as such the model is ready to go into tooling. With this in mind, I will be going live within the next week with the second deposit request payable via my web site. It is here where you can start an account with your details in to be able to pay the 3rd deposit more easily once that is asked for. Now, due to the amount of time it has taken to get this far, there were some drop outs and prices have gone up very slightly. So I will keep the order book open to recoup those orders for limited time. If all goes well, and with a fair wind, the 1 st EP’s should be on display at Stafford Show at the end of February 2019 All previously announced details will still be on the new models, and the box is slightly altered to make things easier to get in and out of the packaging. More info as and when I have it in exclusive mail shots to your inbox. As ever, I will post this in PDF form to the DJM web site a week to 10 days later than you are receiving this, so I would appreciate, to allow other members chance to read this newsletter, that you not post this info to forums until its’ been on the DJM website. Cheers Dave DJModels Ltd"

 

 

(Edit: well ok the PDF ended with different instructions than were in the email containing the document. Ooops)

Edited December 10, 2018 by sorabain

[reevesthecat]

So the price has risen- to what? Also what's to stop the old factory or a 3rd party jumping in and using the cad already produced?

Mark

[DavidH]

So the price has risen- to what? Also what's to stop the old factory or a 3rd party jumping in and using the cad already produced?

Mark

 

Money, and I can't think of a single UK manufacturer who would do that to a fellow trader.

[pheaton]

I take it there are no new cad images then?

[JSpencer]

Now until the end of February is a rather optimistic time scale for tooling especially with Chinese New Year in between. Great if it happens, but one should not be disappointed if it's later. If there are EPs out by June, that is still very good progress.

[reevesthecat]

Sorry don't see it usual Dave over optimistic time line. 2nd payment not requested yet and I can't imagine that will be a quick process will people pay straight away, how many will have dropped out from the project seems to be a lot of disgruntled investors out there. Then how long does tooling take especially considering Chinese New Year.

Happy to be proved wrong

Mark

[jjb1970]

Money, and I can't think of a single UK manufacturer who would do that to a fellow trader.

 

There might be nothing stopping the factory having a go. I guess the determinant would be how near the model was to realisation when things went pear shaped between them and DJM.

[pheaton]

There might be nothing stopping the factory having a go. I guess the determinant would be how near the model was to realisation when things went pear shaped between them and DJM.

Other than a seriously risky 6 figure investment into a model that unless they have been to a lot of ews sponsored open days they know nothing about, thats before finding a uk company to market and sell it?

[Damo666]

Other than a seriously risky 6 figure investment into a model that unless they have been to a lot of ews sponsored open days they know nothing about, thats before finding a uk company to market and sell it?

Seen nothing to say that the CAD work was 100% complete, but even then there would be the artwork for the liveries to produce. IMO very unlikely that the factory would/could try and complete the model

[YesTor]

Predictably all the doom-mongers and those who seem to know exactly how Dave supposedly should be communicating to the public at large are out in full force and sounding like a broken record.

 

In addition to the 'like', 'agree', 'thanks', 'craftmanship/clever', 'funny' etc reactions can we have a 'rolls eyes' icon too please for occasions such as this?  

Edited December 11, 2018 by YesTor

[mdvle]

There might be nothing stopping the factory having a go. I guess the determinant would be how near the model was to realisation when things went pear shaped between them and DJM.

 

Likely DJM could take legal action in the UK to prevent a model made from DJM IP from being imported/sold in the UK.

 

What has become clear is that DJM needs a second person involved to handle things that Dave is either not good at or simply doesn't have the time for.  While I wish Dave the best, and acknowledge that there has been some unfortunate stuff in the past, my opinion is that without an active presence of some sort on the various online forums it will be a challenge to crowd fund any models. 

 

It is the nature of the type of project that crowd funding needs more of an open process to generate the up front commitments than simply producing a model for retail.  When a buyer has to put down money before production starts the back and forth discussion to deal with the questions that arise is a necessary part of the process, and impossible to do on a company website unless one goes through the hassles of running a company only forum on the company website.

 

The exclusive window for those who have put money down is fine once a project has progressed beyond the initial announcement, but the failure to follow up with the public portion is a problem.

[reevesthecat]

Predictably all the doom-mongers and those who seem to know exactly how Dave supposedly should be communicating to the public at large are out in full force and sounding like a broken record.

 

In addition to the 'like', 'agree', 'thanks', 'craftmanship/clever', 'funny' etc reactions can we have a 'rolls eyes' icon too please for occasions such as this?  

I know especially when the email idea was such a success this time!

Mark

[jjb1970]

Likely DJM could take legal action in the UK to prevent a model made from DJM IP from being imported/sold in the UK.

I don't think we know who owns the IP, it's quite possible that the factory owns the IP for the work which has been done.